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Via Garibaldi 8

Full 14th St Shutdown Cancelled

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Why not use this new, super-technology for the full shutdown, shortening even more, if it even works?

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30 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

Why not use this new, super-technology for the full shutdown, shortening even more, if it even works?

Do not be rational. You will be punished.

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Why wouldn't they?  Everyone is going ape sh*t over nothing. The option being chosen was ALWAYS an option from the beginning.  It was this versus a FULL SHUTDOWN. They will still be shutting down one tunnel at a time to do the work, so it's just a partial shutdown versus a full shutdown. You still need shuttle buses and additional service.  They may also do both tunnels during nights and weekends, which would still be a full shutdown, just not 24/7. 

No. This is new. This is not closing the tunnels save for single tube closures on nights and weekends. The need for supplemental service outside those hours thus disappears, and we're left with normal weekday service. 

I'm extremely skeptical of this plan. Previous MTA releases indicated that the damage was not limited to the ductbanks as today's presentation indicated; it included corrosion to the concrete lining of the tunnel, the track structure, etc. Those issues don't seem to be addressed here. The ductbank solution itself seems highly suspect. This epoxy wrap thing sounds like a really fancy way of saying "we're gonna use glue and duct tape to hold this tunnel together" with the implied causative clause of "because Andy C wants to pull a press coup to help his chances in 2020." I'm not an engineer so I can't speak to the exact issues here, but it seems awfully likely that these patches will just decay over time, creating a need for a second round of work in say 10 years. Then we're stuck with an expensive/disruptive/wholly unnecessary second round without Andrew Cuomo in office to be held accountable. 

I'm also worried (really, terrified) about what this'll do to costs. Contracts have already been issued and mitigations designed. We're tossing that all out the window and telling all the people working on this to start afresh. That can't be cheap.

On a final note, the MTA board has yet to vote on this. It's interesting to note that Cuomo believes he can suppose their support without so much as informing them as to what's going on. Maybe it's like he actually controls the MTA...

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So not only does this affect MTA's planning on the 14th St shutdown, it also affects buses, lines and pick schedules.

This is what I think is going to happen IF the late night/weekend option is selected:

Remaining R32's will be retired and scrapped as more R179's come in. 

No swap will occur between any of the lines.

The (M) will operate to 96th St during nights and weekends.

M14 SBS will be cancelled.

No ferry will be added between Styuvensent Cove and Williamsburg.

All painted roads and SBS machines along 14th St and Grand St will be reverted back.

All R42's will be gone.

 

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13 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

So not only does this affect MTA's planning on the 14th St shutdown, it also affects buses, lines and pick schedules.

This is what I think is going to happen IF the late night/weekend option is selected:

Remaining R32's will be retired and scrapped as more R179's come in. 

No swap will occur between any of the lines.

The (M) will operate to 96th St during nights and weekends.

M14 SBS will be cancelled.

No ferry will be added between Styuvensent Cove and Williamsburg.

All painted roads and SBS machines along 14th St and Grand St will be reverted back.

All R42's will be gone.

 

For real? Come on, this was the golden opportunity to revolutionize the bus system with HOV-3+ restrictions on the Williamsburg Bridge and bus restrictions on 14th Street. We could've gotten M14 crosstown buses that went a gazillion miles per hour instead of typical Manhattan traffic speed. We need more car free bus corridors. Why must the governor ruin New Yorker's lives for personal gain. Now how will we get a car free crosstown bus corridor to ease traffic?

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1 minute ago, JeremiahC99 said:

For real? Come on, this was the golden opportunity to revolutionize the bus system with HOV-3+ restrictions on the Williamsburg Bridge and bus restrictions on 14th Street. We could've gotten M14 crosstown buses that went a gazillion miles per hour instead of typical Manhattan traffic speed. We need more car free bus corridors. Why must the governor ruin New Yorker's lives for personal gain. Now how will we get a car free crosstown bus corridor to ease traffic?

There's no point now. Except for an "enhanced" schedule on the M14A/D.

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5 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

There's no point now. Except for an "enhanced" schedule on the M14A/D.

I was told this in regards to the bus shuttles:

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Why wouldn't they?  Everyone is going ape sh*t over nothing. The option being chosen was ALWAYS an option from the beginning.  It was this versus a FULL SHUTDOWN. They will still be shutting down one tunnel at a time to do the work, so it's just a partial shutdown versus a full shutdown. You still need shuttle buses and additional service.  They may also do both tunnels during nights and weekends, which would still be a full shutdown, just not 24/7. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Is nobody reading the actual article? As @RR503 said, this is not just the second, longer option. This is replacing the work strategy over 15 months with an alternative work model of a more limited scope. [Edit: I see the article has changed and nobody knew the timeline at first publication.]

My question--and here I defer to the engineers--is whether this will work as effectively, and if it does work, how the MTA could have been so stupid as to miss it all. 

Edited by MHV9218
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5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

and I can tell you right now that with all of the contractors involved, any little thing can hold up a project, and given what "surprises" tend to hide behind walls once you start opening them up, that 1 1/4 year timeline can easily change

To be fair, Montague and Clark Streets tunnels were finished early - the latter on nights and weekends.

But the questions I have:

1) What led (MTA) to disregard this "new and untested" method?

2) Why didn't Cuomo mention this at any point until AFTER his inauguration?

This gubernatorial White Knight act he does is tiresome. All these things for votes for a demographic that'll vote for Elizabeth Warren in the primaries instead of him...

I hate playing politics with people's lives. NY-bred politicians are the worst.

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3 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

If he wanted to look good, then he would've been involved in the project since the beginning, not intervening at the last minute. That is what a real wise governor would do. 

But that's not how a politician operates. Look at the other asshat from Queens - everyday grabbing headlines just to look like a champion and hero to his base.

Contrast that with Obama and Bush - in the headlines when necessary; or Pataki and Paterson, just doing the job and hoping for good press.

#NoMoreGovernorsOrPOTUSesFromQueens

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2 minutes ago, Deucey said:

But that's not how a politician operates. Look at the other asshat from Queens - everyday grabbing headlines just to look like a champion and hero to his base.

Contrast that with Obama and Bush - in the headlines when necessary; or Pataki and Paterson, just doing the job and hoping for good press.

#NoMoreGovernorsOrPOTUSesFromQueens

I'd rather have politicians that prioritizes functionality over pet-projects and unnecessary photo ops, someone like Pataki and Patterson, but who actually cares about transit and the safety of the people.

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7 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I'd rather have politicians that prioritizes functionality over pet-projects and unnecessary photo ops, someone like Pataki and Patterson, but who actually cares about transit and the safety of the people.

That's my point. Pols think headlines bring voters but unless you're really uninspiring, it's the lack of headlines that bring voters.

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1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

So not only does this affect MTA's planning on the 14th St shutdown, it also affects buses, lines and pick schedules.

This is what I think is going to happen IF the late night/weekend option is selected:

Remaining R32's will be retired and scrapped as more R179's come in. 

No swap will occur between any of the lines.

The (M) will operate to 96th St during nights and weekends.

M14 SBS will be cancelled.

No ferry will be added between Styuvensent Cove and Williamsburg.

All painted roads and SBS machines along 14th St and Grand St will be reverted back.

All R42's will be gone.

 

The R32's aren't going anywhere, they still need them regardless of no shutdown. 2nd ave caused yards to lower their spare factors. So the R32's are still needed. Plus the (G) will still have to go 8 cars since there will be a surplus of 8 car trains. This could also make the (C) full length by default. 

 

The (G) and (M) lines will still see service increases so they will still need the extra cars.

Plus if extra cars are kept this could help the (W) get extended instead of waiting until 2022-23.

 

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21 minutes ago, Deucey said:

That's my point. Pols think headlines bring voters but unless you're really uninspiring, it's the lack of headlines that bring voters.

I agree. We need more NY governors that actually cares about the subway and its people rather than using it to garner headlines.

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21 minutes ago, R32 3838 said:

The R32's aren't going anywhere, they still need them regardless of no shutdown. 2nd ave caused yards to lower their spare factors. So the R32's are still needed. Plus the (G) will still have to go 8 cars since there will be a surplus of 8 car trains. This could also make the (C) full length by default. 

 

The (G) and (M) lines will still see service increases so they will still need the extra cars.

Plus if extra cars are kept this could help the (W) get extended instead of waiting until 2022-23.

 

The (W) extended where? Bay Parkway?

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2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The (W) extended where? Bay Parkway?

Likely but I doubt it'll happen

 

NYCT president said they're still committed to lengthing the (G) train and adding more (M) service. I don't know about the (C) though 

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1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

So not only does this affect MTA's planning on the 14th St shutdown, it also affects buses, lines and pick schedules.

This is what I think is going to happen IF the late night/weekend option is selected:

Remaining R32's will be retired and scrapped as more R179's come in. 

No swap will occur between any of the lines.

The (M) will operate to 96th St during nights and weekends.

M14 SBS will be cancelled.

No ferry will be added between Styuvensent Cove and Williamsburg.

All painted roads and SBS machines along 14th St and Grand St will be reverted back.

All R42's will be gone.

 

Not entirely true. R42’s might stay a little longer in my opinion. M14SBS is still bound to happen along with the bus increases. R32’s have to stay to increase the spare factor. Etc. basically, all of the plans that were made for the shutdown might still be kept. 

10 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I agree. We need more NY governors that actually cares about the subway and its people rather than using it to garner headlines.

Who was the last governor to actually care about the subway system?

3 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The (W) extended where? Bay Parkway?

I think @R32 3838 was referring to overall service of the (W) line rather than extending the route itself. 

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7 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Not entirely true. R42’s might stay a little longer in my opinion. M14SBS is still bound to happen along with the bus increases. R32’s have to stay to increase the spare factor. Etc. basically, all of the plans that were made for the shutdown might still be kept. 

Who was the last governor to actually care about the subway system?

I think @R32 3838 was referring to overall service of the (W) line rather than extending the route itself. 

Increasing (W) service is completely unnecessary. Especially since the (W) is a supplement itself. I think he most likely meant an extension. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, B46 via Utica said:

Increasing (W) service is completely unnecessary. Especially since the (W) is a supplement itself. I think he most likely meant an extension. 

 

 

Exactly, what is there to to increase?

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25 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I agree. We need more NY governors that actually cares about the subway and its people rather than using it to garner headlines.

I'd rather a legislature that funded NYC and big city transit on par or better than upstate roads, and that also believed in local control to let cities and counties campaign for and fund initiatives without needing Albany's approval.

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3 hours ago, RR503 said:

No. This is new. This is not closing the tunnels save for single tube closures on nights and weekends. The need for supplemental service outside those hours thus disappears, and we're left with normal weekday service. 

I'm extremely skeptical of this plan. Previous MTA releases indicated that the damage was not limited to the ductbanks as today's presentation indicated; it included corrosion to the concrete lining of the tunnel, the track structure, etc. Those issues don't seem to be addressed here. The ductbank solution itself seems highly suspect. This epoxy wrap thing sounds like a really fancy way of saying "we're gonna use glue and duct tape to hold this tunnel together" with the implied causative clause of "because Andy C wants to pull a press coup to help his chances in 2020." I'm not an engineer so I can't speak to the exact issues here, but it seems awfully likely that these patches will just decay over time, creating a need for a second round of work in say 10 years. Then we're stuck with an expensive/disruptive/wholly unnecessary second round without Andrew Cuomo in office to be held accountable. 

I'm also worried (really, terrified) about what this'll do to costs. Contracts have already been issued and mitigations designed. We're tossing that all out the window and telling all the people working on this to start afresh. That can't be cheap.

On a final note, the MTA board has yet to vote on this. It's interesting to note that Cuomo believes he can suppose their support without so much as informing them as to what's going on. Maybe it's like he actually controls the MTA...

Well I’ll have a wait and see attitude. As I said, I’m not sure the alternatives would be much better. Having the work delayed with the project tied up in lawsuits doesn’t accomplish anything either.

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2 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

Is nobody reading the actual article? As @RR503 said, this is not just the second, longer option. This is replacing the work strategy over 15 months with an alternative work model of a more limited scope. [Edit: I see the article has changed and nobody knew the timeline at first publication.]

My question--and here I defer to the engineers--is whether this will work as effectively, and if it does work, how the MTA could have been so stupid as to miss it all. 

Well it seems like other engineers have been consulted on this...

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1 hour ago, Deucey said:

To be fair, Montague and Clark Streets tunnels were finished early - the latter on nights and weekends.

But the questions I have:

1) What led (MTA) to disregard this "new and untested" method?

2) Why didn't Cuomo mention this at any point until AFTER his inauguration?

This gubernatorial White Knight act he does is tiresome. All these things for votes for a demographic that'll vote for Elizabeth Warren in the primaries instead of him...

I hate playing politics with people's lives. NY-bred politicians are the worst.

That’s my point. There is no rule that says that the work can’t be done on nights and weekends. We shouldn’t have a full shutdown if it isn’t needed. What’s important is that the work is done that is needed. 

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2 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

For real? Come on, this was the golden opportunity to revolutionize the bus system with HOV-3+ restrictions on the Williamsburg Bridge and bus restrictions on 14th Street. We could've gotten M14 crosstown buses that went a gazillion miles per hour instead of typical Manhattan traffic speed. We need more car free bus corridors. Why must the governor ruin New Yorker's lives for personal gain. Now how will we get a car free crosstown bus corridor to ease traffic?

I think this is also important. Canarsie would have been painful, but it would have showcased a different approach to transportation. On the surface level, we would have been actively and drastically restricting car access along key corridors. New Yorkers would have been able to experience efficient (albeit) crowded bus service pretty much for the first time in history, along with gains in pedestrian and bike access.

Underground, NYCT was being forced away from its highly linear approach to transportation. The Canarsie shutdown plan was a study in the way our system can distribute loads through its redundancy. Instead of the usual 'lines exist in isolation' mantra, we would have seen NYCT confront the fact it operates a network. Now, they could have done more in this regard, but such is life. NYCT would have also been forced to operate the system *well*. You basically had single point failure on the WillyB and on the (G); dispatchers would have had to get crafty with loads, frequency, variability, and service management. And they would have learned from all this -- to the benefit of the rest of the system and city. Today, we lost that opportunity. 

9 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well it seems like other engineers have been consulted on this...

The engineers consulted have, as far as I can tell, zero experience with NYCT. MTA was basically not clued in on all this. I'm generally skeptical of the conclusions of remote academics and 'big thinkers' who use the word 'innovative' when talking about safety-critical maintenance, and the lack of detail, dissonance in message (is it just the benchwall or the whole track/tunnel structure) and the startling lack of NYCT personnel on the team just reinforces my skepticism. Was this a kangaroo court? 

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