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Mother Carrying Baby in Stroller Dies After Falling Down Subway Stairs

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3 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

And this is what I'm talking about. Quick to misplace blame. The same thing could have happened at a station WITH a working elevator.

We still don't know the details and if her having to take the stairs instead of taking an elevator contributed to her health condition.

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...nor does this in any way diminish the main point here, which is that we need those bloody elevators. 

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16 minutes ago, RR503 said:

...nor does this in any way diminish the main point here, which is that we need those bloody elevators. 

The main point was to blame the MTA for something that was not their fault in the hopes of generating enough public anger to push for more elevators, got it. ✔️

Edited by N6 Limited
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They really need to start incorporating elevator additions into their other repairs, like ESI. It's the perfect time to do it. The station is already closed. It would also help them with the cost because they would be doing a few at a time. I've mentioned this before, but they really need to add ADA accessibility at 168th Street (1). The station is closed, it is at a transfer point which is accessible, and they are repairing the elevators, so this fits in with the project! The whole station is closed, how hard would it be to build a ramp from the area with the elevators to the platforms.

It's frustrating how these things are often looked at by the MTA. The MTA sees an expense and goes, "Let's put this off until later" when it would save money (in the long run) and time to just do it.

Edited by W4ST
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1 minute ago, N6 Limited said:

The main point was to blame the MTA for something that was not their fault in the hopes of generating enough public anger to push for more elevators, got it. ✔️

Until an hour ago, the most plausible explanation for someone dying after falling down the stairs was the fact that they fell down the stairs. We *may* have been wrong (read VG8s post — different medical issue doesn’t mean it wasn’t triggered by etc), so forgive us from making the obvious connection in the hopes that raising awareness of the issue would help prevent such accidents in the future. 

And again, if this death was linked to her unfortunate descent, this is on the MTA and the politicians around it. 

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31 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Until an hour ago, the most plausible explanation for someone dying after falling down the stairs was the fact that they fell down the stairs. We *may* have been wrong (read VG8s post — different medical issue doesn’t mean it wasn’t triggered by etc), so forgive us from making the obvious connection in the hopes that raising awareness of the issue would help prevent such accidents in the future. 

And again, if this death was linked to her unfortunate descent, this is on the MTA and the politicians around it. 

But It wasn't the most plausible, all we knew is that someone fell down the stairs and someone died. To blame the lack of elevators is just lazy. 

If the death is linked to her fall perhaps the MTA should just install anti-gravity machines to prevent this in the future.

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4 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

But It wasn't the most plausible, all we knew is that someone fell down the stairs and someone died. To blame the lack of elevators is just lazy. 

If the death is linked to her fall perhaps the MTA should just install anti-gravity machines to prevent this in the future.

It's not lazy.  If there was an elevator no person in they're right mind is going to lug down stairs with a baby.  Just common sense...

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15 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

But It wasn't the most plausible, all we knew is that someone fell down the stairs and someone died. To blame the lack of elevators is just lazy. 

If the death is linked to her fall perhaps the MTA should just install anti-gravity machines to prevent this in the future.

Sorry, the cause of death for someone whose death was immediately preceded by their falling down a set of stairs isn’t the fall...? 

I agree. The MTA should install anti-gravity machines. They have a name now, you know — elevators.

I’m really failing to see your argument here. If it’s just contrariety for the sake thereof, fine, but the logical progression from a lack of station elevators to high risk situations for people carrying heavy things is, at least in my mind, extremely clear. She carried her stroller down the stairs because she had no choice, not because she was reckless or risk taking. Our society, our politicians, our transit agency forced her (and many, many others) to put her life at risk in order to simply take the subway. Things like “she could have asked for help” are completely orthogonal to this question. She, and everyone else, should be able to move independently. Period. Failures to provide that facility fall on the facility provider, which, in this case is the MTA, an agency which has been abdicating its duty to do the same since 1990. 

Edited by RR503
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3 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I agree. The MTA should install anti-gravity machines. They have a name now, you know — elevators.

I’m really failing to see your argument here. If it’s just contrariety for the sake thereof, fine, but the logical progression from a lack of station elevators to high risk situations for people carrying heavy things is, at least in my mind, extremely clear. She carried her stroller down the stairs because she had no choice, not because she was reckless or risk taking. Our society, our politicians, our transit agency forced her (and many, many others) to put her life at risk in order to simply take the subway. Things like “she could have asked for help” are completely orthogonal to this question. She, and everyone else, should be able to move independently. Period. Failures to provide that facility fall on the facility provider, which, in this case is the MTA, an agency which has been abdicating its duty to do the same since 1990. 

There's a technique I've seen used for decades, I've even used it myself, with Strollers, Shopping Carts, Bikes. You roll one wheel at a time down the stairs, no need to "lift" anything, easily controlled.

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1 minute ago, N6 Limited said:

There's a technique I've seen used for decades, I've even used it myself, with Strollers, Shopping Carts, Bikes. You roll one wheel at a time down the stairs, no need to "lift" anything, easily controlled.

Well lucky you that in those years you’ve never lost your footing or slipped or been pushed in the wrong way...

I’ve seen people go down doing that. 

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14 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Sorry, the cause of death for someone whose death was immediately preceded by their falling down a set of stairs isn’t the fall...? 

I agree. The MTA should install anti-gravity machines. They have a name now, you know — elevators.

I’m really failing to see your argument here. If it’s just contrariety for the sake thereof, fine, but the logical progression from a lack of station elevators to high risk situations for people carrying heavy things is, at least in my mind, extremely clear. She carried her stroller down the stairs because she had no choice, not because she was reckless or risk taking. Our society, our politicians, our transit agency forced her (and many, many others) to put her life at risk in order to simply take the subway. Things like “she could have asked for help” are completely orthogonal to this question. She, and everyone else, should be able to move independently. Period. Failures to provide that facility fall on the facility provider, which, in this case is the MTA, an agency which has been abdicating its duty to do the same since 1990. 

It goes back to what I said earlier.  We have people that don't seem to understand that as a public agency, the (MTA) is LEGALLY responsible to make their stations accessible for EVERYONE and SAFE. This is a FACT, but some see elevators as being "optional", and as something that would be "nice" but isn't necessary. In the 21st century it is a must. It's just like NYCHA when their elevators fail and disabled people can't get to their apartments.  They have to use the stairs, or ask someone to help them carry them up.  Same exact thing...

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6 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

There's a technique I've seen used for decades, I've even used it myself, with Strollers, Shopping Carts, Bikes. You roll one wheel at a time down the stairs, no need to "lift" anything, easily controlled.

So if you roll down 30 lbs of stuff in a shopping cart down the stairs you can easily control it? Would like to hear this magical technique you speak of.

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I've read this whole thread twice hoping that someone, anyone, would point out the obvious disconnect some posters have. This whole subway forum never ceases to amaze me. For a decade I, and a few old-time posters, have pointed out the lack of interest in the infrastructure of the system. Signals, switch problems, water conditions, ceiling collapses, I've seen and experienced them all. High winds blowing the roof off at Freeman St (2) , (5) station ? Been there , done that. Ceiling collapse at Atlantic Ave, Nevins St, or Borough Hall-Lex, I've seen them all. Point I'm trying to make is that many posters are so hung up on new train cars that they're blind to everything else that needs to be done to make this a viable system for all. In lower Manhattan, for example, the older BMT and IRT station platforms are only 20-30 feet below street level. Maybe if the (MTA) would have used some of the money they spent on art and NTT they could have installed elevators, ramps, or something to comply with the ADA mandates. I can't speak for every poster out there but it's no exaggeration, IMO, that the subway forum would be in an uproar because money was being spent on something other than NTT. Go to the (MTA) official site daily and look at the delays on the subways and railroads caused by infrastructure (rails, switches, signals) and contrast that number with car equipment failures.  Look at the recent IND station situation where trains were told to bypass a station because of overcrowding because of narrow platforms creating a safety issue. That's why the service pattern of the (E) , (F) , and (M)   or the old (V) was set up the way it is today. Maybe something as sad as this will make some folks, posters or the (MTA) board itself, open their eyes and adjust their priorities. Probably won't but one can hope. Carry on.

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Having to make deliveries on the subway and having heavy bags I've experienced first hand how much of a pain in the ass it is to try to get around without elevators....it ain't fun..

 

I feel for wheelchair persons and wish the MTA would atleast consider ramps or something that could help make stations ADA..

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1 hour ago, Jdog14 said:

I feel for wheelchair persons and wish the MTA would atleast consider ramps or something that could help make stations ADA..

It's a constant issue with my grandmother. Whenever she comes to visit me I always feel bad because there are no elevators at the closest station to me, and the closest ADA accessible station is 5.5 miles away! (more than 10 local stops). That's why she always asks me for bus options, even if they're several times longer, or she just says "screw it" and orders the smelly access-a-ride.

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For @N6 Limited who stated that using a simple technique solves the problem, the problem of using such a hack extends far further than just your situation, and it's hard to oversee logistically on a wide scale. I'd like to bring your attention to Lefferts Blvd., a station that previously had no ADA accessibility whatsoever, nada. At this time, when the MTA kept delaying the installation of elevators, people were pissed. Can you imagine being disabled and trying to get up those narrow staircases, consider weather conditions and how navigation is made harder during those times. Even regular commuters and businesses dealt with this nonsense and danger from the agency putting it off. This isn't even mentioning a person was observed thrashing his wheelchair down many stairs almost on a daily basis, you know the agency screwed up when someone had to resort to that with no other option (luckily he didn't get hurt). This is no technique, this shows how less accessibility slows down station flow, makes travel dangerous (especially if you are disabled), and gives the (MTA) more of a reason to ignore the issue, as everybody else clearly pointed out. Before you say my description is flawed in that people alone could be assisted by employees or commuters to travel, that arguing is the same I hear from Access-A-Ride justifiers, that assistance can technically be had. While the option remains languid at best, people don't have the time for it frankly either.

In reality, it's 2019, we can do much better than this and reform is needed badly to improve the accessibility many almost century-old stations.

Edited by NoHacksJustKhaks
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1 minute ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

For @N6 Limited who stated that using a simple technique solves the problem, the problem of using such a hack extends far further than just your situation, and it's hard to oversee logistically on a wide scale. I'd like to bring your attention to Lefferts Blvd., a station that previously had no ADA accessibility whatsoever, nada. At this time, when the MTA kept delaying the installation of elevators, people were pissed. Can you imagine being disabled and trying to get up those narrow staircases, consider weather conditions and how navigation is made harder? Even regular commuters dealt with this nonsense and danger the agency kept putting off. This isn't even mentioning a person was observed rolling his wheelchair down many stairs almost on a daily basis, you know the agency screwed up when someone had to resort to that with no other option. This is no technique, this shows how less accessibility slows down station flow, makes travel dangerous (especially if you are disabled), and gives the (MTA) more of a reason to ignore the issue. Before you say my description is flawed in that people alone could be assisted by employees or commuters to travel, that arguing is the same I hear from Access-A-Ride justifiers, that assistance can technically be had. While the option remains languid at best, people don't have the time for it frankly either.

In reality, it's 2019, we can do much better than this and reform is needed badly to improve the accessibility many almost century-old stations.

I'm not saying that the MTA doesn't need more accessible stations, my whole point is stop blaming them for this particular incident.

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30 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

I'm not saying that the MTA doesn't need more accessible stations, my whole point is stop blaming them for this particular incident.

I questioned your technique specifically and why it makes no sense logically. It ties back into the main point I, and many others have mentioned. Yes, this was a tiny incident technically and yes we do see and feel drama over it. But I don't see how this event doesn't evidence the consequences of bad practices by the agency. Elevators definitely would have made this event less likely to happen, if at all. The parent probably didn't even know your specific trick could be used to get down, not everyone will. And if she did, it clearly isn't foolproof, again during bad weather, etc. I see no reason to shrug off an incident like this when people clearly can be put in danger very easily when given no good option at many stations, it's the ignorance the agency has had for years addressing this problem by shrugging off clear flaws in station design through these accidents. 

Edited by NoHacksJustKhaks
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It is so ridiculous that there are so many apologists for the MTA when it comes to this issue. "The elevators cost too much," they cry.

ADA for Bay Ridge cost $18M. Access A Ride now costs half a billion dollars a year. That money could fund 30 upgraded stations a year. Quit the bullshit.

Not to mention, full ADA access would save money not only on paratransit, but on the buses as well, since many disabled people use the buses, and we all know how long it takes to get them in and out of the bus. But they don't hold up the trains, because the trains are so much easier to board at an ADA station.

Edited by bobtehpanda
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1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

It is so ridiculous that there are so many apologists for the MTA when it comes to this issue. "The elevators cost too much," they cry.

ADA for Bay Ridge cost $18M. Access A Ride now costs half a billion dollars a year. That money could fund 30 upgraded stations a year. Quit the bullshit.

Not to mention, full ADA access would save money not only on paratransit, but on the buses as well, since many disabled people use the buses, and we all know how long it takes to get them in and out of the bus. But they don't hold up the trains, because the trains are so much easier to board at an ADA station.

This is the problem right here — $18 million for elevators. *Elevators.*

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3 hours ago, CTK246 said:

This is the problem right here — $18 million for elevators. *Elevators.*

You're putting elevator(s, if you're building separate ones from the street to mezzanine and from the mezzanine to platform(s)) in a structure not designed for them, and constraining the work area (increasing time and complexity) to keep the station open. 

Are you going to just fetch some cheaper store brand elevators at the elevator store?

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10 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I've read this whole thread twice hoping that someone, anyone, would point out the obvious disconnect some posters have. This whole subway forum never ceases to amaze me. For a decade I, and a few old-time posters, have pointed out the lack of interest in the infrastructure of the system. Signals, switch problems, water conditions, ceiling collapses, I've seen and experienced them all. High winds blowing the roof off at Freeman St (2) , (5) station ? Been there , done that. Ceiling collapse at Atlantic Ave, Nevins St, or Borough Hall-Lex, I've seen them all. Point I'm trying to make is that many posters are so hung up on new train cars that they're blind to everything else that needs to be done to make this a viable system for all. In lower Manhattan, for example, the older BMT and IRT station platforms are only 20-30 feet below street level. Maybe if the (MTA) would have used some of the money they spent on art and NTT they could have installed elevators, ramps, or something to comply with the ADA mandates. I can't speak for every poster out there but it's no exaggeration, IMO, that the subway forum would be in an uproar because money was being spent on something other than NTT. Go to the (MTA) official site daily and look at the delays on the subways and railroads caused by infrastructure (rails, switches, signals) and contrast that number with car equipment failures.  Look at the recent IND station situation where trains were told to bypass a station because of overcrowding because of narrow platforms creating a safety issue. That's why the service pattern of the (E) , (F) , and (M)   or the old (V) was set up the way it is today. Maybe something as sad as this will make some folks, posters or the (MTA) board itself, open their eyes and adjust their priorities. Probably won't but one can hope. Carry on.

People are who they are & will show their colors when the opportunity presents itself... It is what it is.

What's far more concerning is that the narrative by the MTA is always "safety first" without actually taking measures that go above & beyond practicing just what the hell is being preached...

Like I said earlier in this thread, it boils down to gross negligence.... The station may be 100 years old, it's may not be 100% the MTA's fault, yada yada yada, but since we're d*cking around with numbers, appx. 75% of stations w/o elevators is inexcusable too..... Flat out.... There's only but so much damn victim blaming that can be partaken in before the common denominator starts to become as conspicuous as Rudolph's red nose.....The onus simply isn't on the end-user of a service to make that service safe to use for their own consumption.....

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6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

People are who they are & will show their colors when the opportunity presents itself... It is what it is.

What's far more concerning is that the narrative by the MTA is always "safety first" without actually taking measures that go above & beyond practicing just what the hell is being preached...

Like I said earlier in this thread, it boils down to gross negligence.... The station may be 100 years old, it's may not be 100% the MTA's fault, yada yada yada, but since we're d*cking around with numbers, appx. 75% of stations w/o elevators is inexcusable too..... Flat out.... There's only but so much damn victim blaming that can be partaken in before the common denominator starts to become as conspicuous as Rudolph's red nose.....The onus simply isn't on the end-user of a service to make that service safe to use for their own consumption.....

It's also super dumb, because what exactly is the downside to putting in new elevators? Slowing down station upgrades? They weren't even that fast or numerous to begin with!

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15 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

It's also super dumb, because what exactly is the downside to putting in new elevators? Slowing down station upgrades? They weren't even that fast or numerous to begin with!

It's simple.  They don't want to spend the money. They re-did 242nd street a few years ago and opted to not install an elevator.  Only one board member urged them to reconsider, and he lives in my neighborhood.  Ultimately they decided against it.  

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The main problem is that MTA dosen't spend the time to accommodate ADA compliance with 3/4 of the system and tries to be as cheap as possible. Most of the system can be done. The real challenges are some Manhattan stations and other busy or narrow stations. And even with these conditions it can be possible to make every station ADA by 2034.

Speaking of, just came across this not long ago. A map of planned and current ada stations: 

http://transitcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Access2024map-4.pdf

Edited by MysteriousBtrain
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