SI officials: What the L y'all gonna do with those buses?

[Cait Sith]

27 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

You know...I always heard about Staten Island having a lot of pull when it comes to receiving buses. I wonder if this could possibly shift the order of LFS going to the Bronx. Maybe give Castleton 90 LFS along with YUKs 77 LFS, and call it the day. Send the Orions to the Bronx. 

That is, and isn't true.

Express buses, they have a lot of pull because the island provides the most service.
Local buses.....hit or miss.

When the 90 test bus orders of the Orions, Novas & New Flyers came about, they were originally to be the first to receive the first 30 buses of each group, but that changed. QV ended up receiving the first Xcelsiors and the Orions.

If some folks had their way, the Island would've been mostly Xcelsiors instead of LFSs.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Cait Sith

[MysteriousBtrain]

38 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

You know...I always heard about Staten Island having a lot of pull when it comes to receiving buses. I wonder if this could possibly shift the order of LFS going to the Bronx. Maybe give Castleton 90 LFS along with YUKs 77 LFS, and call it the day. Send the Orions to the Bronx. 

Besides the L switch up, there is no way politics will switch up current plans. There are only three realistic ways to change it up. To keep maintenance simple for a depot/division, replace buses and/or to keep fleet age average.

Staten Island has that special "fourth rule" that calls for all Hybrids to be off the island due to bad performance there.

[Lil 57]

54 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

You know...I always heard about Staten Island having a lot of pull when it comes to receiving buses. I wonder if this could possibly shift the order of LFS going to the Bronx. Maybe give Castleton 90 LFS along with YUKs 77 LFS, and call it the day. Send the Orions to the Bronx. 

But the 3G's were never given to the Bronx so the Bronx might not have the right maintenance equipment.

[trife86]

2 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

But the 3G's were never given to the Bronx so the Bronx might not have the right maintenance equipment.

They are not that different or advanced from many other models out there. They share many many common parts with others.

[trainfan22]

2 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

But the 3G's were never given to the Bronx so the Bronx might not have the right maintenance equipment.

Don't the 3G's have the same powertrain as the Nova LFS already in the BX?

 

With that being said, I hope 7000 - 7089 stay the rest of their life's in SI... the seating setup in the rear is awful and very hard to exit the HF section when people are standing up there. If they change the seating to how the NG hybrids are then I wouldn't mind them leaving SI lol.

Edited February 5, 2019 by trainfan22

[MysteriousBtrain]

The 3Gs are more or less the same thing as the OGs and NGs save the fuel difference. But with new deliveries in the Bronx around 70% of the NGs will probably be displaced to Brooklyn and Manhattan so moving the 3Gs there isn't exactly ideal atm.

Edited February 5, 2019 by MysteriousBtrain

[Future ENY OP]

54 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

The 3Gs are more or less the same thing as the OGs and NGs save the fuel difference. But with new deliveries in the Bronx around 70% of the NGs will probably be displaced to Brooklyn and Manhattan so moving the 3Gs there isn't exactly ideal atm.

Why would Brooklyn need to take on SI’s and or The Bronx NG’s? Most of Brooklyn is getting XD40’s except Flatbush and Flatbush is not so willing to give up their RTS for anymore NG’s. 

[Cait Sith]

3 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Why would Brooklyn need to take on SI’s and or The Bronx NG’s? Most of Brooklyn is getting XD40’s except Flatbush and Flatbush is not so willing to give up their RTS for anymore NG’s.  

You've forgotten that Brooklyn already has SI's NGs 🤣.

All jokes aside, if Brooklyn does end up getting more NGs, it'll likely boot out the RTSs.

The other alternative would be sending them to Manhattanville or QV.

[Future ENY OP]

5 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

You've forgotten that Brooklyn already has SI's NGs 🤣.

All jokes aside, if Brooklyn does end up getting more NGs, it'll likely boot out the RTSs.

The other alternative would be sending them to Manhattanville or QV.

You mean by way of Grand Avenue and Fresh Pond from Charleston and Yukon respectively. 

Correct: I could see Yukon’s NG’s going to Manhattanville or a split between Manhattanville and Flatbush (since they are not receiving additional XD40’s) 

[Lil 57]

4 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

You mean by way of Grand Avenue and Fresh Pond from Charleston and Yukon respectively. 

But I think some came back (3992). SI also has a lot from Flatbush.

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

14 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

You've forgotten that Brooklyn already has SI's NGs 🤣.

All jokes aside, if Brooklyn does end up getting more NGs, it'll likely boot out the RTSs.

The other alternative would be sending them to Manhattanville or QV.

That's what I'm saying. The reasoning of "fleet age" is not going to be the same across all depots. Look at MHV compared to Gleason...

If I were the MTA I would try to uniform the fleet so that parts are common and each depot has a batch of the new scheme buses when possible. 

Whats the point of keeping oddball Orions isolated on an entire island filled with one type? 

Sending 3Gs to Manhattanville will make the fleet age younger at that depot, along with making the fleet uniform in Staten Island, along with giving them their fair share of new scheme wifi-usb buses (yes I know Yukon is getting).  Then Manhattanville will receive XDE40s in a year or so, and the fleet age will be much younger as well. 

Hybrids leaving Manhattanville that aren't scrap can go wherever needed as many depots are familiarized with them. 

I'm just saying...orders literally change last minute, especially in this big political city.  

Edited February 5, 2019 by XcelsiorBoii4888

[Cait Sith]

13 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

That's what I'm saying. The reasoning of "fleet age" is not going to be the same across all depots. Look at MHV compared to Gleason...

If I were the MTA I would try to uniform the fleet so that parts are common and each depot has a batch of the new scheme buses when possible. 

Whats the point of keeping oddball Orions isolated on an entire island filled with one type? 

Sending 3Gs to Manhattanville will make the fleet age younger at that depot, along with making the fleet uniform in Staten Island, along with giving them their fair share of new scheme wifi-usb buses (yes I know Yukon is getting).  Then Manhattanville will receive XDE40s in a year or so, and the fleet age will be much younger as well. 

Hybrids leaving Manhattanville that aren't scrap can go wherever needed as many depots are familiarized with them. 

I'm just saying...orders literally change last minute, especially in this big political city.  

Necessity. It's smarter for the island to retain those buses since Castleton has a tendency to be short on local buses during the rush hour at times. And with the powertrain being the same as the current LFSs, it's not that big of a deal.

Bear in mind, the exact number of LFSs going to Yukon(77) is directly booting the exact amount of NGs at Yukon(77). If those 3Gs were to leave, what exactly are you going to fill the 90 bus gap with? There's a whole lot more to it than you're making it sound, as it's not that simple.

One way or another, you're gonna have to have a set of Orions left on the island.

As for the fleet age at Manhattanville, if the fleet age was really a problem at that depot, you'd see 4600s out there by now.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Cait Sith

[Lawrence St]

So what's set to replace the s79 SBS?

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

So what's set to replace the s79 SBS?

That 77 LFS bus order for Yukon is replacing every Orion VII Hybrid in that depot, including the S79 SBS fleet (4245-4278). At least 34-36 of those LFS buses will be for S79 SBS.

 

[Cait Sith]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

So what's set to replace the s79 SBS?

The LFSs.....like I said.

[aemoreira81]

To me, the S79 SBS fleet and the M15 SBS fleet need to be replaced.  The priority should be toward existing SBS routes.

52 buses for Mother Hale Depot for the M15 SBS (50 1-for-1 replacement and 2 for a slight service increase)

78 buses for Flatbush Depot (split between the B44 and B46)---1 for 1 replacement plus an additional - capacity increase on B46 requires fewer buses - and one doesn't have to maintain separate fleets for SBS.

22 buses for East New York Depot for the B82 SBS (1 for 1 replacement with capacity expansion).

Existing LFS artics that are wrapped would be used to retire all remaining D60HFs.

As for SI Division, is it possible that the remaining D60HFs could redirect 5567-5602 (LFS artics) to Yukon? This would be replaced by the remaining 38 XD60s before the MTA Bus XD60 batch comes in.

The 7000s O7s can remain on SI, but SI should not have hybrids since SI isn't really a stop-and-go borough.

Edited February 9, 2019 by aemoreira81

[JeremiahC99]

14 minutes ago, aemoreira81 said:

To me, the S79 SBS fleet and the M15 SBS fleet need to be replaced.  The priority should be toward existing SBS routes.

52 buses for Mother Hale Depot for the M15 SBS (50 1-for-1 replacement and 2 for a slight service increase)

78 buses for Flatbush Depot (split between the B44 and B46)---1 for 1 replacement plus an additional - capacity increase on B46 requires fewer buses - and one doesn't have to maintain separate fleets for SBS.

22 buses for East New York Depot for the B82 SBS (1 for 1 replacement with capacity expansion).

Existing LFS artics that are wrapped would be used to retire all remaining D60HFs.

As for SI Division, is it possible that the remaining D60HFs could redirect 5567-5602 (LFS artics) to Yukon? This would be replaced by the remaining 38 XD60s before the MTA Bus XD60 batch comes in.

The 7000s O7s can remain on SI, but SI should not have hybrids since SI isn't really a stop-and-go borough.

In the Fleets and Depots page, I did mention a potential bus assignment for Staten Island Division following the change in the order from Castleton and Charleston receiving 30 of the new LFS buses each and Yukon getting 47 LFS buses to Yukon getting all 77 LFS buses. In case you missed it, here was my suggested fleet assignment for the LFS:

8184-8251, 10 new LFS (78) Castleton

8252-8317, 67 new LFS (133) Yukon (around 36 of the new LFS buses would be used for S79+ Duty).

That would've provided enough service for Staten Island by removing the older Orion VII Hybrids with the old BAE Series-E HybriDrive from high speed routes. What do you think of my assignments?

Also, SI will have to wait for new artic buses since the ones on the mainland need to be replaced first, and Quill needs LFS buses 5567-5602 to complete their SBS fleet, and push out the oddball XD60s. Not only that, but an extra 2 buses for the S79 SBS would help with service reliability.

[trife86]

17 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

 

Also, SI will have to wait for new artic buses since the ones on the mainland need to be replaced first, and Quill needs LFS buses 5567-5602 to complete their SBS fleet, and push out the oddball XD60s. Not only that, but an extra 2 buses for the S79 SBS would help with service reliability.

Having 2 extra wrapped has nothing to do with service reliability on the 79 as they can use a regular hardseater all day everyday if they don't have available wrapped buses.

[trainfan22]

lol FOX 5 news did a story on this but they interviewed what seemed like Express bus riders SMH.

 

Media and this politician doesn't realize these are LOCAL Buses and will not help out the express bus riders. Unless the TA changes the spec of the some of the XD40s to have suburban seating, which would still suck as those SI expresses would still have standees due to an Suburban XD40 having far less seats than an MCI or Prevost.

 

 

Would be nice as a busfan though, AFAIK no transit agency in the Tri State operates LF suburban buses. 

Edited February 10, 2019 by trainfan22

[JeremiahC99]

3 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

But in regards to Manhattanville, it won't hurt for them to get new buses either. They haven't gotten anything factory new since 2008.

Manhattanville an all-Diesel-Electric hybrid Depot. Diesel fuel is dead to them, so it would not make sense for them to get new diesel buses. However, with SI set to have the new LFS buses displace the Orion VII NG hybrids, it would make sense for some of those buses to be sent directly to Manhattanville so that way the hybrids can live out the rest of their lives in stop-and-go Manhattan traffic instead of creating a potential for those buses to crap out on the Verrazano Bridge and other high speed areas. Staten Island will be more reliable with diesels vs the older BAE Series-E HybriDrive system so that should solve their bus problems.

3 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

The new XDE40s should address that issue.

SI will not be getting that 275 bus Diesel-Electric Hybrid order, either XDEs or the pending LFS HEVs.

[East New York]

On 2/4/2019 at 7:06 PM, Lil 57 said:

But the 3G's were never given to the Bronx so the Bronx might not have the right maintenance equipment.

Same bus as an NG on the exterior, save some body panels and the doors. Same bus under the hood as the XD40’s and LFS’s. 

On 2/4/2019 at 9:24 PM, trife86 said:

They are not that different or advanced from many other models out there. They share many many common parts with others.

They are actually quite different. The only common parts are most of the exterior panels and some interior components. They have different engines, drivetrains, components, parts, breaks, suspensions, exhausts, power supplies, HVAC systems and more. 

On 2/4/2019 at 10:09 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

The 3Gs are more or less the same thing as the OGs and NGs save the fuel difference. But with new deliveries in the Bronx around 70% of the NGs will probably be displaced to Brooklyn and Manhattan so moving the 3Gs there isn't exactly ideal atm.

They don’t have a different fuel system........ That’s one of the very few things that are exactly the same lol. 

On 2/4/2019 at 9:42 PM, trainfan22 said:

Don't the 3G's have the same powertrain as the Nova LFS already in the BX?

 

With that being said, I hope 7000 - 7089 stay the rest of their life's in SI... the seating setup in the rear is awful and very hard to exit the HF section when people are standing up there. If they change the seating to how the NG hybrids are then I wouldn't mind them leaving SI lol.

Yes they do have the same power rain as I was mentioning to everyone above.

On 2/5/2019 at 7:42 AM, Future ENY OP said:

You mean by way of Grand Avenue and Fresh Pond from Charleston and Yukon respectively. 

Correct: I could see Yukon’s NG’s going to Manhattanville or a split between Manhattanville and Flatbush (since they are not receiving additional XD40’s) 

Don’t forget Flatbush will have 15-16 buses free when artics are implemented on the B46+.

On 2/5/2019 at 4:19 PM, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

If I were the MTA I would try to uniform the fleet so that parts are common and each depot has a batch of the new scheme buses when possible. 

Whats the point of keeping oddball Orions isolated on an entire island filled with one type? 

Sending 3Gs to Manhattanville will make the fleet age younger at that depot, along with making the fleet uniform in Staten Island, along with giving them their fair share of new scheme wifi-usb buses (yes I know Yukon is getting).  Then Manhattanville will receive XDE40s in a year or so, and the fleet age will be much younger as well. 

Hybrids leaving Manhattanville that aren't scrap can go wherever needed as many depots are familiarized with them. 

I'm just saying...orders literally change last minute, especially in this big political city.  

MTA has been making the fleet uniform since 2011. Thats why we have things assigned the way that we do. There is no point in seeing 3g’s To MV. If that was the case they would be getting new ones now. When the original LFS assignments came down MV was included. I mentioned that this was not really necessary seeing as hybrids will start arriving next year. 

However, seeing as SI is going all LFS, it’s inevitiable the 3G’s leave at some point anyway. Where they go really doesn’t matter. They can essentially go to any depot in the city except Gleason.

On 2/8/2019 at 8:52 PM, aemoreira81 said:

To me, the S79 SBS fleet and the M15 SBS fleet need to be replaced.  The priority should be toward existing SBS routes.

52 buses for Mother Hale Depot for the M15 SBS (50 1-for-1 replacement and 2 for a slight service increase)

78 buses for Flatbush Depot (split between the B44 and B46)---1 for 1 replacement plus an additional - capacity increase on B46 requires fewer buses - and one doesn't have to maintain separate fleets for SBS.

22 buses for East New York Depot for the B82 SBS (1 for 1 replacement with capacity expansion).

Existing LFS artics that are wrapped would be used to retire all remaining D60HFs.

As for SI Division, is it possible that the remaining D60HFs could redirect 5567-5602 (LFS artics) to Yukon? This would be replaced by the remaining 38 XD60s before the MTA Bus XD60 batch comes in.

The 7000s O7s can remain on SI, but SI should not have hybrids since SI isn't really a stop-and-go borough.

Where have you been my man? These updates have been on the first page for at least a year, and discussed regularly.

*Yukon is getting brand new LFS for the S79.

*Hale is getting 51 brand new XD60’s for the M15+ .

*Flatbush is getting 47 brand new XD60’s for the B44+, and 10 for the B46+.

* EN will get artics as soon the depot is Artic ready, and MTA Bus get theirs, and returns the loaners they have now.

*We don’t need to unwrap any LFSA’s because 36 brand new ones are on the way to Quill, and MTA Bus loaners still have to come back. Both of which will retire the D60’s. 

*Yukon will not get artics anytime soon. They are not ready for them, have not trained on them, and logistically it would be a waste of time and money right now. The S79 is not a true SBS, so dwell times would increase, and efficiency would decrease at this stage. The first ever major testing of artics will begin planning on the Island next year. An XE60 will head out there for duty cycle testing. 

*SI will not be getting hybrids. Only diesels for now and the next major order will be electric. Some of the 45 AEB’s will likely end up out in SI anyway. However, they could essentially use XDE40’s if they are Allison equipped. That however won’t happen anyway. All diesels until new electric buses arrive for now.

*The 7000’s will likely head out of the island one day. That day may be sooner rather than later as the NG’s start to leave the island, and will no longer share common parts (other than some engine parts) with the LFS’s which dominate the island. 

On 2/9/2019 at 7:45 PM, Chris Alleyne said:

But in regards to Manhattanville, it won't hurt for them to get new buses either. They haven't gotten anything factory new since 2008.

They will get new hybrids in 2020/2021.

On 2/9/2019 at 7:47 PM, Chris Alleyne said:

The new XDE40s should address that issue.

The will address the stop-and-go issue, but they still won’t be getting any of them. Hybrid days on the island were short lived, and now are numbered seeing as the LFS is on the horizon pending delivery any day now actually. 

21 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Manhattanville an all-Diesel-Electric hybrid Depot. Diesel fuel is dead to them, so it would not make sense for them to get new diesel buses. However, with SI set to have the new LFS buses displace the Orion VII NG hybrids, it would make sense for some of those buses to be sent directly to Manhattanville so that way the hybrids can live out the rest of their lives in stop-and-go Manhattan traffic instead of creating a potential for those buses to crap out on the Verrazano Bridge and other high speed areas. Staten Island will be more reliable with diesels vs the older BAE Series-E HybriDrive system so that should solve their bus problems.

SI will not be getting that 275 bus Diesel-Electric Hybrid order, either XDEs or the pending LFS HEVs.

How exactly is diesel fuel dead to them when every bus they have now is fueled by diesel??

It has been mentioned several times that the displaced NG’s from SI will head to depots like MV.

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

So @East New York what's your overall opinion on these S.I politics? 

[Lawrence St]

15 hours ago, East New York said:

Same bus as an NG on the exterior, save some body panels and the doors. Same bus under the hood as the XD40’s and LFS’s. 

They are actually quite different. The only common parts are most of the exterior panels and some interior components. They have different engines, drivetrains, components, parts, breaks, suspensions, exhausts, power supplies, HVAC systems and more. 

They don’t have a different fuel system........ That’s one of the very few things that are exactly the same lol. 

Yes they do have the same power rain as I was mentioning to everyone above.

Don’t forget Flatbush will have 15-16 buses free when artics are implemented on the B46+.

MTA has been making the fleet uniform since 2011. Thats why we have things assigned the way that we do. There is no point in seeing 3g’s To MV. If that was the case they would be getting new ones now. When the original LFS assignments came down MV was included. I mentioned that this was not really necessary seeing as hybrids will start arriving next year. 

However, seeing as SI is going all LFS, it’s inevitiable the 3G’s leave at some point anyway. Where they go really doesn’t matter. They can essentially go to any depot in the city except Gleason.

Where have you been my man? These updates have been on the first page for at least a year, and discussed regularly.

*Yukon is getting brand new LFS for the S79.

*Hale is getting 51 brand new XD60’s for the M15+ .

*Flatbush is getting 47 brand new XD60’s for the B44+, and 10 for the B46+.

* EN will get artics as soon the depot is Artic ready, and MTA Bus get theirs, and returns the loaners they have now.

*We don’t need to unwrap any LFSA’s because 36 brand new ones are on the way to Quill, and MTA Bus loaners still have to come back. Both of which will retire the D60’s. 

*Yukon will not get artics anytime soon. They are not ready for them, have not trained on them, and logistically it would be a waste of time and money right now. The S79 is not a true SBS, so dwell times would increase, and efficiency would decrease at this stage. The first ever major testing of artics will begin planning on the Island next year. An XE60 will head out there for duty cycle testing. 

*SI will not be getting hybrids. Only diesels for now and the next major order will be electric. Some of the 45 AEB’s will likely end up out in SI anyway. However, they could essentially use XDE40’s if they are Allison equipped. That however won’t happen anyway. All diesels until new electric buses arrive for now.

*The 7000’s will likely head out of the island one day. That day may be sooner rather than later as the NG’s start to leave the island, and will no longer share common parts (other than some engine parts) with the LFS’s which dominate the island. 

They will get new hybrids in 2020/2021.

The will address the stop-and-go issue, but they still won’t be getting any of them. Hybrid days on the island were short lived, and now are numbered seeing as the LFS is on the horizon pending delivery any day now actually. 

How exactly is diesel fuel dead to them when every bus they have now is fueled by diesel??

It has been mentioned several times that the displaced NG’s from SI will head to depots like MV.

Finally someone agrees with me that the s79 isnt a true SBS lmao

[trife86]

18 hours ago, East New York said:

 

*SI will not be getting hybrids. Only diesels for now and the next major order will be electric. Some of the 45 AEB’s will likely end up out in SI anyway. However, they could essentially use XDE40’s if they are Allison equipped. That however won’t happen anyway. All diesels until new electric buses arrive for now.

*The 7000’s will likely head out of the island one day. That day may be sooner rather than later as the NG’s start to leave the island, and will no longer share common parts (other than some engine parts) with the LFS’s which dominate the island. 

 

Might be going a little OT

But you mentioned that the 3G and the LFS has exact same power train.

Why is it the 3G feels alot more powerful? Is it the transmission shifting strategy or is it different boost pressure tuning ?

The 3Gs are such a good driving bus, at least for the OP, the LFS can't even get out of its own way lol

Edited February 11, 2019 by trife86

[East New York]

20 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

So @East New York what's your overall opinion on these S.I politics? 

I understand exactly what they are saying, and I agree they need new buses. All they had to do was ask the MTA, or read NYCTF. They went about it all wrong. As a borough, they have the youngest fleet average anyway. They just want brand new pretty blue buses. Lol

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Finally someone agrees with me that the s79 isnt a true SBS lmao

It’s not SBS at all if you ask me. In this case it stands for “Super-Limited Bus Service” in my eyes lol. They need to build MVM’s and actually speed up the line. 

3 hours ago, trife86 said:

Might be going a little OT

But you mentioned that the 3G and the LFS has exact same power train.

Why is it the 3G feels alot more powerful? Is it the transmission shifting strategy or is it different boost pressure tuning ?

The 3Gs are such a good driving bus, at least for the OP, the LFS can't even get out of its own way lol

Off topic in this case is ok, because they (the SI polititions) are beating a dead horse anyway. 

 

Edit: XD40’s all have ISL/Allison That was an error. The XN40’s and 60’s have the ISLG/ZF set-up.

 

Now getting into these power trains. The difference is because of the set-up, and the weight. The Orion VII E10’s (official Daimler designation) 7000-7089 are powered by (save the EPA upgrades) the same Cummins ISL9/ZF Ecomat as LFS’ 8015-8754

The E10 “3G’s” weigh about 2,000 lbs more than the Nova, thus requiring the engine and transmission to be tuned for more power at take-off. The shift scheduling, as well as torque tuning are different. Some of the Nova’s have been tuned, and take off a but faster than others.

The only thing I don’t like about the LFS is this design. I feel like the structure should stay the same because its solid, and based directly off the RTS modular technology. However, I think the front needs a facelift, and the wheelbase needs to be expanded just a touch. The new windows will hopefully address the visibility issue, but a full redesign would address than just that.