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Via Garibaldi 8

Ideas to Alleviate Severe 7 Train Overcrowding

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So help me understand this:

They turned on CBTC so more (7)<7> could run.

Now there are (L)-style crowds.

Is this crowding due to CBTC malfunctions, new ridership, insufficient rolling stock, etc?

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13 minutes ago, Deucey said:

So help me understand this:

They turned on CBTC so more (7)<7> could run.

Now there are (L)-style crowds.

Is this crowding due to CBTC malfunctions, new ridership, insufficient rolling stock, etc?

A combination of all of the above, though the (7) has always been crowded. In any other city, a new relief line would have been built back in the 1990s when subway ridership was on the rebound, but that didn't happen and now every line in Queens is overcrowded.

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5 hours ago, shiznit1987 said:

The most immediate solutions would be a Q66 SBS that goes into Manhattan along 5th/Madison Aves along with making the PW branch cost the same as a subway ride w/ Metrocard access. Other solutions in the near term involve bus redesign such as combining the Q33 into the Q32 and making it SBS as well as extending the Q60 deeper into Manhattan to draw Sunnyside riders. 

What gets me is your quote:  NOT more subway proposals

To me, that sounds like we as a city have given up on the idea of ever expanding the subway system. If that's the case, then we're just putting band aids on bullet holes because NY will just keep growing and the subway will just keep breaking down. 

Because any subway will take YEARS to build. Alternatives could be up and running faster. More subways are a long-term solution. You can live in fantasy world or in reality. The reality is there has been NO subway expansion in the outer boroughs in DECADES. Those are the facts. 

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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There should be some type of Atlantic ticket for all LIRR lines that go near the subway. Not just near the subway too. All stations in Queens should have the offer for the $60 pass already offered by the Atlantic/Far Rockaway line as well as a variant for a $50 pass without the bus/subway transfers. The Atlantic ticket seems to be a good hit so I don't see why it can't be expanded elsewhere. 

 

These subway delays happen to often for people to keep putting up with this. Something needs to be done.

Edited by MysteriousBtrain
Far Rockaway is the main line serving the 10 stations on the Atlantic ticket yes?

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On 2/13/2019 at 5:11 PM, Lil 57 said:

If the service is that bad, I would consider creating an express bus route (let's call it the QM9) underneath the (7) train and adding bus lanes onto Queens Blvd and Roosevelt Ave to speed things quicker.

In my plan, bus lanes would be enforced during peak hours (6 AM-10 AM) and (3 PM - 7 PM) with the QM9 covering service east of 74th street and the Q32 covering west of 74th street. 

The QM9 would first start as a peak route via 6th Ave, running non-stop from 57th Street (Manhattan) to the 74th Street station (Queens). Then it would stay on Rosevelt ave until Flushing and mainly use College Point Blvd to reach College Point (Q25 bus terminal) and run every 10-15 minutes in the heart of rush hour and every 20-30 minutes during shoulder periods. Some trips will short-turn in flushing. If ridership grows, off-peak service can be added. Routes like the BxM11 run under a subway line for most of its route but still get good ridership because of how poor (2)(5) service is over there.

QM9 Bus Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Wu7J7h6judAnkS2OhfEQdjFwqXqFBzx2&amp;usp=sharing

QM9 mock schedule (Trips with a * originate/terminate at the Flushing-Main Street (7) station.) Travel time from College Point to Flushing is 20 minutes so they still match up with the headways.

PM times are marked in bold.

QM9 AM service (Towards 57th Street)

5:20*

5:30

5:50

6:05

6:20

6:35

6:50

7:00

7:10

7:20

7:30

7:40

7:50

8:20*

8:12

8:44*

8:36

9:08*

9:00

9:35*

9:30

10:00

QM9 PM service (Towards College Point)

2:00*

2:30*

3:00

3:20

3:40

4:00

4:15

4:30

4:45

5:00

5:10

5:20

5:30

5:40

5:50

6:00*

6:12

6:24*

6:42

7:00

7:20

7:40

8:00

8:30

9:00

 

Adding on to this, I'll address the off-peak schedule (if ridership warrants it).

Most of the time the QM9 will run every 30 minutes to Main Straight and every 60 minutes (every other bus) to College Point. On Saturday mornings and PM house service will be increased to every 15-20 minutes with every other bus serving College Point.

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22 hours ago, Caelestor said:

A combination of all of the above, though the (7) has always been crowded. In any other city, a new relief line would have been built back in the 1990s when subway ridership was on the rebound, but that didn't happen and now every line in Queens is overcrowded.

Right. A relief was needed decades ago. The City and the State/MTA had all that time to get something going and they never did. I seem to recall seeing a study done back in the 1990s to address the overcrowding on the various Queens “cordons.” It even included the incorporation of the PW Branch into the 63rd Street Tunnel via the then-unused Broadway Express tracks (Also recommended by the RPA as part of the Rx component of their Third Regional Plan in 1996). But there was no will by NY pols and bureaucrats, so there was no way.  

22 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Because any subway will take YEARS to build. Alternatives could be up and running faster. More subways are a long-term solution. You can live in fantasy world or in reality. The reality is there has been NO subway expansion in the outer boroughs in DECADES. Those are the facts. 

Well, maybe we ought to get on with it, then. Dust off some of those old studies, like the “Queens Cordons” one and see what’s changed in roughly the past quarter century. Bet you one thing for sure: The Queens subway lines, the (7) are even more overcrowded than they were then and are in need of even more relief now. So yes, let’s start by amping up the express bus service and employing enforced bus lanes and priority bus signals. Why New York is so late to this party is beyond me.  

13 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

Adding on to this, I'll address the off-peak schedule (if ridership warrants it).

Most of the time the QM9 will run every 30 minutes to Main Straight and every 60 minutes (every other bus) to College Point. On Saturday mornings and PM house service will be increased to every 15-20 minutes with every other bus serving College Point.

This would be an excellent start. I can’t, for the life of me, understand why there’s no express bus to Manhattan from downtown Flushing. Everyone will say, “Money!” I say, “Bullshit” to that! Because they always manage to find money for other things. It’s a matter of will. When there’s a will, there’s a way. Unfortunately, “will” doesn’t work for the extremely recalcitrant MTA or New York City DOT.

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1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

This would be an excellent start. I can’t, for the life of me, understand why there’s no express bus to Manhattan from downtown Flushing. Everyone will say, “Money!” I say, “Bullshit” to that! Because they always manage to find money for other things. It’s a matter of will. When there’s a will, there’s a way. Unfortunately, “will” doesn’t work for the extremely recalcitrant MTA or New York City DOT.

I'm going to start working on a full mock schedule for the QM9. Do all new routes go to NYCT? Or can new routes made from scratch goes to (MTA) Bus since CP would be an excellent Depot to run a route like that.

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10 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

I'm going to start working on a full mock schedule for the QM9. Do all new routes go to NYCT? Or can new routes made from scratch goes to (MTA) Bus since CP would be an excellent Depot to run a route like that.

The Q70 went to MTA Bus.

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On 2/13/2019 at 5:11 PM, Lil 57 said:

If the service is that bad, I would consider creating an express bus route (let's call it the QM9) underneath the (7) train and adding bus lanes onto Queens Blvd and Roosevelt Ave to speed things quicker.

 

You do realize that Roosevelt Avenue is one lane in each direction + parking for pretty much all of its length under the (7)? If you want to keep the parking, there's no room for a bus lane; and if you choose to get rid of the parking, you're going to make quite a few people angry, not to mention lose quite a bit of parking revenue for the city because from my experience those spots are always occupied.

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2 minutes ago, 7LineFan said:

You do realize that Roosevelt Avenue is one lane in each direction + parking for pretty much all of its length under the (7)? If you want to keep the parking, there's no room for a bus lane; and if you choose to get rid of the parking, you're going to make quite a few people angry, not to mention lose quite a bit of parking revenue for the city because from my experience those spots are always occupied.

Like I said, bus Lanes on Roosevelt would be rush hours only. Off-peak they would be used for parking. Streets like Hylan Blvd does this. NYC is supposed to transit orientated. Queens Blvd however, should have 24 hour bus Lanes from QBP to Roosevelt Ave.

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12 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

Like I said, bus Lanes on Roosevelt would be rush hours only. Off-peak they would be used for parking. Streets like Hylan Blvd does this. NYC is supposed to transit orientated. Queens Blvd however, should have 24 hour bus Lanes from QBP to Roosevelt Ave.

I don't think Roosevelt is a good idea. Northern is a better idea.  The express bus would have to be marketed to people in the community and even presented before the Community Board. I'm going to be meeting with a Queens native this weekend and discussing some ideas further.  It's also better to go out to the physical locations when discussing such proposals to see what it's like. Looking at a map doesn't tell the whole story.  If anything, the better idea may be to target more riders in Flushing at the end of the line thus alleviating overcrowding further down the line.  

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21 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't think Roosevelt is a good idea. Northern is a better idea.  The express bus would have to be marketed to people in the community and even presented before the Community Board. I'm going to be meeting with a Queens native this weekend and discussing some ideas further.  It's also better to go out to the physical locations when discussing such proposals to see what it's like. Looking at a map doesn't tell the whole story.  If anything, the better idea may be to target more riders in Flushing at the end of the line thus alleviating overcrowding further down the line.  

The QM3 coves Northern but only a handful of trips each day and west of City Field is Only served in the PM. Modifing the QM3 could be a good idea.

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Just now, Lil 57 said:

The QM3 coves Northern but only a handful of trips each day and west of City Field is Only served in the PM. Modifing the QM3 could be a good idea.

That is likely what we'll be pushing to be honest. That and perhaps some sort of restoration of the QM22. Demographics play a role in this, and an express bus has to run in areas where people are willing to pay the higher fare, so it's about more than just looking at a map.  The QM3 running in Little Neck and Douglaston... Two upper middle class areas that can afford the express bus, though many in the area take the LIRR.  Any QM3 would have to have that in mind.  The other thing we're going to look at is having pick-up stops in Jackson Heights. Right now the QM3 only drops off there.

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20 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't think Roosevelt is a good idea. Northern is a better idea.  The express bus would have to be marketed to people in the community and even presented before the Community Board. I'm going to be meeting with a Queens native this weekend and discussing some ideas further.  It's also better to go out to the physical locations when discussing such proposals to see what it's like. Looking at a map doesn't tell the whole story.  If anything, the better idea may be to target more riders in Flushing at the end of the line thus alleviating overcrowding further down the line.  

I'm still a bit confused here by the immediate jump to express bus improvements. I understand you're a express bus advocacy group, but given (7) corridor demographics, the existence of the LIRR, and the number of intra-borough trips taken on the (7), don't you think the previously suggested combanation of Q66SBS and lower LIRR fares may be an easier/cheaper (and dare I even say better) solution? Serves more riders, makes more impact, etc etc. 

Some color:

Median income by census block group:

tTP7pWc.png

Commuter destinations for half-mile buffer around (7) line:

7MZtUyy.jpg

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7 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I'm still a bit confused here by the immediate jump to express bus improvements. I understand you're a express bus advocacy group, but given (7) corridor demographics, the existence of the LIRR, and the number of intra-borough trips taken on the (7), don't you think the previously suggested combanation of Q66SBS and lower LIRR fares may be an easier/cheaper (and dare I even say better) solution? Serves more riders, makes more impact, etc etc. 

Some color:

Median income by census block group:

tTP7pWc.png

Commuter destinations for half-mile buffer around (7) line:

7MZtUyy.jpg

What are you confused about??

I said before that your suggestions I agreed with IN COMBINATION WITH improved express bus service.  What part isn't clear?  I also said that express buses or any bus service is not going to make up for the (7) train service nor can it, but again why should people in that area be stuck only with the (7) train? Are they are not allowed to pay taxes and have transportation alternatives?  I'm sure you do.  You don't need to keep telling me over and over again how great trains are and how they move people.  Every mode of transportation that we have in this City has its place, and the sooner that people realize that the better off we'll be.

The express bus service that existed before was poorly advertised and poorly run, and that is still the case today. The QM3 has only three trips in both directions every 30 minutes, and only drops off in Jackson Heights. No pick-ups. That makes no sense. Despite all of that it still sees good usage, and there's a reason for that.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What are you confused about??

I said before that your suggestions I agreed with IN COMBINATION WITH improved express bus service.  What part isn't clear?  I also said that express buses or any bus service is not going to make up for the (7) train service nor can it, but again why should people in that area be stuck only with the (7) train? Are they are not allowed to pay taxes and have transportation alternatives?  I'm sure you do.  You don't need to keep telling me over and over again how great trains are and how they move people.  Every mode of transportation that we have in this City has its place, and the sooner that people realize that the better off we'll be.

Lemme be abundantly clear: I think it's great you're advocating for more express bus service. More transit = good (generally). The reason I keep coming back to this idea of highest impact interventions is that in times of scarcity (such as today) you generally want to be pursuing the changes that will provide the greatest good for the most people at the lowest cost -- focusing your resources and energy makes things more likely to happen. 

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11 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Lemme be abundantly clear: I think it's great you're advocating for more express bus service. More transit = good (generally). The reason I keep coming back to this idea of highest impact interventions is that in times of scarcity (such as today) you generally want to be pursuing the changes that will provide the greatest good for the most people at the lowest cost -- focusing your resources and energy makes things more likely to happen. 

Let me ask you something. Are you aware of how expensive it is to run LIRR service and what subsidies the railroad gets?  There is this notion that running trains are cheap.  The LIRR and MNRR are expensive in both Queens, Brooklyn and the Bronx to purchase tickets.  If the fares are lowered, they won't be magically lowered just because. It would be the City pumping more money into the railroad to further subsidize it, so give me a break with this crap.

I have lived in cities where we have several different modes of transportation.  Trams, buses, ferries, express buses... They all co-exist together for a reason... Because they work!! I am not against using existing resources like the LIRR and filling more seats with the existing trains, but even doing that the City will be forking over a ton of money to lower the fares, as well as for the purchase of more trains (you'd more than likely have to run more service in addition to the existing service to make it attractive enough to get more people off of the (7) ). 

What I am saying is we had express bus service before to help with the (7) .  It was poorly advertised and there were changing demographics.  With better advertisement of the current QM3 and adding a few more stops that are drop-off only stops, you could fill up those trips, and add some more service, but only by advertising the line and ensuring that people will use it.  A discussion has to be started at the end of the day for SHORT-TERM solutions. You can also try to fill more LIRR seats, but buying more trains will be needed and that would be likely years away. You can add more bus service (both local and express) and use the existing LIRR trains to help NOW.  I hope we're clear now. I just don't hear more about BUT BUT... But trains do this and that.  Each transportation service has their pros and cons, and I'm also not for running express bus service for the hell of it.  I have proposed cutting some express bus service and having service restored that would be better utilized. 

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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25 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Let me ask you something. Are you aware of how expensive it is to run LIRR service and what subsidies the railroad gets?  There is this notion that running trains are cheap.  The LIRR and MNRR are expensive in both Queens, Brooklyn and the Bronx to purchase tickets.  If the fares are lowered, they won't be magically lowered just because. It would be the City pumping more money into the railroad to further subsidize it, so give me a break with this crap.

 I have lived in cities where we have several different modes of transportation.  Trams, buses, ferries, express buses... They all co-exist together for a reason... Because they work!! I am not against using existing resources like the LIRR and filling more seats with the existing trains, but even doing that the City will be forking over a ton of money to lower the fares, as well as for the purchase of more trains (you'd more than likely have to run more service in addition to the existing service to make it attractive enough to get more people off of the (7) ). 

What I am saying is we had express bus service before to help with the (7) .  It was poorly advertised and there were changing demographics.  With better advertisement of the current QM3 and adding a few more stops that are drop-off only stops, you could fill up those trips, and add some more service, but only by advertising the line and ensuring that people will use it.  A discussion has to be started at the end of the day for SHORT-TERM solutions. You can also try to fill more LIRR seats, but buying more trains will be needed and that would be likely years away. You can add more bus service (both local and express) and use the existing LIRR trains to help NOW.  I hope we're clear now. I just don't hear more about BUT BUT... But trains do this and that.  Each transportation service has their pros and cons, and I'm also not for running express bus service for the hell of it.  I have proposed cutting some express bus service and having service restored that would be better utilized. 

The operating expense per passenger mile of LIRR is about 1/3 that of an express bus...but that's not the point. The point is that there are about 3,800 empty seats during each morning peak on the PW branch, seats that, if filled, would actually make the LIRR more money than today on the same level of service provided. And if you're completely filling any new trains, you're probably making money on that, too (and yes, they have the equipment). 

If you're really advocating for better local and express coverage (and, hopefully, better subway service disruption mitigation) though, then power to ya. I'm just wary of the singular express bus focus that evolved in this thread. 

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17 minutes ago, RR503 said:

The operating expense per passenger mile of LIRR is about 1/3 that of an express bus...but that's not the point. The point is that there are about 3,800 empty seats during each morning peak on the PW branch, seats that, if filled, would actually make the LIRR more money than today on the same level of service provided. And if you're completely filling any new trains, you're probably making money on that, too (and yes, they have the equipment). 

If you're really advocating for better local and express coverage (and, hopefully, better subway service disruption mitigation) though, then power to ya. I'm just wary of the singular express bus focus that evolved in this thread. 

I find that hard to believe.  Maybe you can explain why an LIRR peak ticket is $10.25 peak one way with no transfers?  What's the point of discussing something that has already been discussed?  All that needs to be done is to have fares lowered on the LIRR, and have the City cough up the money for it. If it was that easy it would've happened already, but despite your claims it won't be cheap to implement.  

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Even though the Q32 runs under the (7) line from 81/82nd street to Queensboro Plaza it isn’t a good alternative to the (7) . Maybe perhaps they can have it make LTD stops on Queens Blvd where the (7) stops at, but people at the other stops will complain so that’s probably not a reasonable idea either. I don’t even understand why it runs to 81st and Northern Blvd, it seems like a duplicate to the Q33 to be quite honest. 

Ideally if the MTA would just add service to the QM3 it probably would be able to take riders from the Q12, Q13, Q15, and Q28 that would be transferring from those routes to the (7) . The LIRR could also make somewhat of a dent in (7) service if it were cheaper. Wasn’t there plans at some time to add at stop somewhere in Elmhurst or Corona on the LIRR? If it actually happens it could be a temporary solution to taking some of the load of the (7), however the LIRR only has one stop in Manhattan and it’s not even Times Square.

The obvious solution would be to build more subway lines in Queens, but it would be very difficult and costly in today’s Queens. 

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1 minute ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Even though the Q32 runs under the (7) line from 81/82nd street to Queensboro Plaza it isn’t a good alternative to the (7) . Maybe perhaps they can have it make LTD stops on Queens Blvd where the (7) stops at, but people at the other stops will complain so that’s probably not a reasonable idea either. I don’t even understand why it runs to 81st and Northern Blvd, it seems like a duplicate to the Q33 to be quite honest. 

Ideally if the MTA would just add service to the QM3 it probably would be able to take riders from the Q12, Q13, Q15, and Q28 that would be transferring from those routes to the (7) . The LIRR could also make somewhat of a dent in (7) service if it were cheaper. Wasn’t there plans at some time to add at stop somewhere in Elmhurst or Corona on the LIRR? If it actually happens it could be a temporary solution to taking some of the load of the (7)however the LIRR only has one stop in Manhattan and it’s not even Times Square.

The obvious solution would be to build more subway lines in Queens, but it would be very difficult and costly in today’s Queens. 

Some obnoxious person in here noted how the LIRR and the (7) go to the same place - Midtown Manhattan. There are a lot of (7) riders that get off at Times Square and at Grand Central so the idea that it doesn't matter where the LIRR goes is just ignorant, but of course this person likely doesn't use the (7) with any frequency to even see who gets off where.  Penn Station, Grand Central and Times Square are three different locations, and lumping together as if they are the same thing is stupid.

My solutions are as follows:

-Propose a lower LIRR fare for the existing stops near the (7) line

-Consider running more QM3 service with a second branch.  What I would want to figure out is the routing and the current QM3 service, who would use it and how to market it.

-Consider restoring some version of the QM22.

-The Q32 would have to run faster. I think ridership has dwindled considerably because it has become slower, so clearly the fact that it is $2.75 doesn't matter. I ride the Q32 a lot in Manhattan and have noticed that the buses are a lot emptier than they used to be.

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31 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I find that hard to believe.  Maybe you can explain why an LIRR peak ticket is $10.25 peak one way with no transfers?  What's the point of discussing something that has already been discussed?  All that needs to be done is to have fares lowered on the LIRR, and have the City cough up the money for it. If it was that easy it would've happened already, but despite your claims it won't be cheap to implement.  

Intra-city LIRR fares are expensive because they are — the LIRR doesn’t believe that the city is a population they need to serve. There’s little to no financial reasoning there. 

Generally, adding intra city service (especially in the off peak) is a lot less difficult than people make it out to be. Most LIRR branches could take a lot more frequency than they have; cheap intra-city fares are just a good way to fill seats — exactly the point of Atlantic Ticket. Will this require money in the long run? Yes. Will it require an exorbitant amount of money? No, and keep in mind that NYC already contributes to LIRR subsidies.

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Just now, RR503 said:

Intra-city LIRR fares are expensive because they are — the LIRR doesn’t believe that the city is a population they need to serve. There’s little to no financial reasoning there. 

Generally, adding intra city service (especially in the off peak) is a lot less difficult than people make it out to be. Most LIRR branches could take a lot more frequency than they have; cheap intra-city fares are just a good way to fill seats — exactly the point of Atlantic Ticket. Will this require money in the long run? Yes. Will it require an exorbitant amount of money? No, and keep in mind that NYC already contributes to LIRR subsidies.

Yeah well if it wasn't such a big deal it would've been done already, so I don't buy that it's so cheap.  The fares should be lowered, but certainly not to the cost of the (7) train, and the question is will people be willing to pay more to get off of the (7) . Some will... How much? That remains to be seen. What I'm proposing above makes the most sense and could help alleviate some of the overcrowding. From what I've been hearing people are willing to pay more for a direct trip, which is why I'm not all that gung ho on the Atlantic Ticket. You're just moving the crowds from one place in the subway system to another.  The (4)(5) have their own problems, as does the (Q)(D)(N) and (R).  Just lower the fare and let people get into Manhattan directly.  

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21 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My solutions are as follows:

-Propose a lower LIRR fare for the existing stops near the (7) line

-Consider running more QM3 service with a second branch.  What I would want to figure out is the routing and the current QM3 service, who would use it and how to market it.

-Consider restoring some version of the QM22.

-The Q32 would have to run faster. I think ridership has dwindled considerably because it has become slower, so clearly the fact that it is $2.75 doesn't matter. I ride the Q32 a lot in Manhattan and have noticed that the buses are a lot emptier than they used to be.

For the LIRR, maybe you can extend the city ticket program for rush hours as well. So the LIRR would be $4.25 for the whole day within Queens. 

I'm going to edit my QM9 propospal for it to run on Northern instead of Roosevelt. I'll come up with details later.

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1 minute ago, Lil 57 said:

For the LIRR, maybe you can extend the city ticket program for rush hours as well. So the LIRR would be $4.25 for the whole day within Queens. 

I'm going to edit my QM9 propospal for it to run on Northern instead of Roosevelt. I'll come up with details later.

lol.... $4.25... Fat chance... I think $6.50 would be more like it or thereabouts.  

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