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Around the Horn

Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train

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11 minutes ago, Deucey said:

It’s not the scheduling - it’s the relays in Queens and 49th St that’s causing the problem.

In any change that doesn’t modify (R)’s route, the second service on 4th Av would have to become the Primary service - if only to make sure train station show up close to on-time and at the scheduled frequency. Just like it is overnight when (N) and (R) share Montague.

It also means (M) would have to be the primary local on QBL - which affects (F) on 6th Av and (E) on QBL, and (C) and possibly (A) on 8th Av, for starters.

@RR503 wasn’t kidding about how every part of the B division would have some modification if 4th Av’s fix isn’t simple.

There are pretty much only 3 changes one can make to 4th without causing a massive cascade across the B division. 

- Extend (W) to Bay Ridge

- Extend some service from Nassau to Bay Ridge

- Deinterline 34th St, so all (N)s run to 96. 

Beyond that, you're in the woods, though I'd argue that's a good thing. 

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1 hour ago, RR503 said:

There are pretty much only 3 changes one can make to 4th without causing a massive cascade across the B division. 

- Extend (W) to Bay Ridge

- Extend some service from Nassau to Bay Ridge

- Deinterline 34th St, so all (N)s run to 96. 

Beyond that, you're in the woods, though I'd argue that's a good thing. 

But wouldn’t just keeping (N) from stopping at 49th St solve “some” of the problem (assuming (W) service is increased slightly)?

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Deucey said:

But wouldn’t just keeping (N) from stopping at 49th St solve “some” of the problem (assuming (W) service is increased slightly)?

Not really. You move the merge from a 13mph switch to a 20mph switch, yes, but the basic issue of a capacity-limited and delay-prone service pattern on a key route remains. (W) service also can't be increased without killing an equal number of (N)s -- Astoria's 15tph turning capacity makes their balance a zero sum game (though you can always run unequal mixes north/south, as they do today). 

Edited by RR503

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On 6/10/2019 at 8:08 PM, RR503 said:

There are pretty much only 3 changes one can make to 4th without causing a massive cascade across the B division. 

- Extend (W) to Bay Ridge

- Extend some service from Nassau to Bay Ridge

- Deinterline 34th St, so all (N)s run to 96. 

Beyond that, you're in the woods, though I'd argue that's a good thing. 

Or what is done is a new signal box is put in at 5th Avenue going south that would allow the (N)(R) and (W) train operators to go to either the express or local track from THERE AND allow the (N)(R)(W) to do their merge northbound after 57th Street.  That likely would be much easier and at least southbound eliminate the need for the (N) going local southbound above 34th.

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2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Or what is done is a new signal box is put in at 5th Avenue going south that would allow the (N)(R) and (W) train operators to go to either the express or local track from THERE AND allow the (N)(R)(W) to do their merge northbound after 57th Street.  That likely would be much easier and at least southbound eliminate the need for the (N) going local southbound above 34th.

You’ve just moved the merge to another place while still underserving 2nd and Astoria.

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2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Or what is done is a new signal box is put in at 5th Avenue going south that would allow the (N)(R) and (W) train operators to go to either the express or local track from THERE AND allow the (N)(R)(W) to do their merge northbound after 57th Street.  That likely would be much easier and at least southbound eliminate the need for the (N) going local southbound above 34th.

On 6/10/2019 at 9:48 PM, RR503 said:

Not really. You move the merge from a 13mph switch to a 20mph switch, yes, but the basic issue of a capacity-limited and delay-prone service pattern on a key route remains. (W) service also can't be increased without killing an equal number of (N)s -- Astoria's 15tph turning capacity makes their balance a zero sum game (though you can always run unequal mixes north/south, as they do today). 

 

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Provided that someone at the MTA doesn't drag out something bonkers, if they actually want to attempt to fix anything I expect they'll propose some kind of stop-gap service between Nassau and 95th Street; they're probably not looking to turn the entire B Division upside down, as positive as it might be in the long term.

It's incredibly unlikely any reasonable service changes will come out of this complaining though. Enjoy the garbage 3-borough local.

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1 hour ago, Threxx said:

Provided that someone at the MTA doesn't drag out something bonkers, if they actually want to attempt to fix anything I expect they'll propose some kind of stop-gap service between Nassau and 95th Street; they're probably not looking to turn the entire B Division upside down, as positive as it might be in the long term.

It's incredibly unlikely any reasonable service changes will come out of this complaining though. Enjoy the garbage 3-borough local.

The problem is that attempting to will result in running headlong into a routing issue.

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13 hours ago, Threxx said:

Provided that someone at the MTA doesn't drag out something bonkers, if they actually want to attempt to fix anything I expect they'll propose some kind of stop-gap service between Nassau and 95th Street; they're probably not looking to turn the entire B Division upside down, as positive as it might be in the long term.

It's incredibly unlikely any reasonable service changes will come out of this complaining though. Enjoy the garbage 3-borough local.

As great as going further would be, I don't see the MTA doing much other than extending the (W) to Bay Ridge. We could maybe see some Broadway de-interlining in the future but it would probably only result in a (W) service increase and the (N) to 96th. 

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1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

As great as going further would be, I don't see the MTA doing much other than extending the (W) to Bay Ridge. We could maybe see some Broadway de-interlining in the future but it would probably only result in a (W) service increase and the (N) to 96th. 

Still think the best solution is a new "Brown (K)" between 95th and Essex with in-service yard runs that are extended to Broadway Junction both ways,  On weekends (and possibly also overnights) if they decide not to make the (M) extension to 96th permament, this "Brown (K)" can be extended to Metropolitan at those times.  

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2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Still think the best solution is a new "Brown (K)" between 95th and Essex with in-service yard runs that are extended to Broadway Junction both ways,  On weekends (and possibly also overnights) if they decide not to make the (M) extension to 96th permament, this "Brown (K)" can be extended to Metropolitan at those times.  

I’m more “convinced that the better solution would be (N)(Q) to 96th, (W) as the primary local to Bay Ridge and Astoria, and (R) as supplemental from Bay Ridge to Continental, but you’d have to redo (J)(M) and (F) scheduling to make it work, and possibly (A)(C)(E)(B)(D)  as well.

Unless you split the (R) and bring back (V) to replace the QBL segment, but where to terminate (V)?

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1 hour ago, Deucey said:

I’m more “convinced that the better solution would be (N)(Q) to 96th, (W) as the primary local to Bay Ridge and Astoria, and (R) as supplemental from Bay Ridge to Continental, but you’d have to redo (J)(M) and (F) scheduling to make it work, and possibly (A)(C)(E)(B)(D)  as well.

Unless you split the (R) and bring back (V) to replace the QBL segment, but where to terminate (V)?

If you are going to involve QBL, then have the (N)(Q) to 96th, (R) to Astoria, and keep the (W) as-is. For QBL you would send the (M) via 63rd while a (K) service runs Forest Hills-WTC via QBL local/53rd to reduce crowds on the (E).

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