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Around the Horn

Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train

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4 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Still though, I don’t think sending the (N) via 63 to QBL is better, simply because of the multiple merges required to run it. And you wouldn’t be able to run additional service for 2nd Avenue. 

It's not. But I'd like to hear some better suggestions. Like I said earlier, putting Broadway service on the QBL is tricky because it either forces you to interline Broadway, create a terrible merging pattern at 36 St, or have Astoria lose its tph, and currently, the former is probably the best option that NYCT decided to go with.

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2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

It's not. But I'd like to hear some better suggestions. Like I said earlier, putting Broadway service on the QBL is tricky because it either forces you to interline Broadway, create a terrible merging pattern at 36 St, or have Astoria lose its tph, and currently, the former is probably the best option that NYCT decided to go with.

But it is possible to run a Broadway/QBL local train without the (N) having to switch from the express tracks to the local between 34th and 42nd. It’s also possible for that same Broadway/QBL train to not have to be the same train that provides local service on 4th Ave in Brooklyn. Run the (W) full time between Astoria and Bay Ridge and either truncate the (R) at Whitehall (or call that service a different letter like P) and run a supplementary R between Bay Ridge and Essex (but significantly more frequently than the previous <RR> service did in the 80s). 

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9 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But it is possible to run a Broadway/QBL local train without the (N) having to switch from the express tracks to the local between 34th and 42nd. It’s also possible for that same Broadway/QBL train to not have to be the same train that provides local service on 4th Ave in Brooklyn. Run the (W) full time between Astoria and Bay Ridge and either truncate the (R) at Whitehall (or call that service a different letter like P) and run a supplementary R between Bay Ridge and Essex (but significantly more frequently than the previous <RR> service did in the 80s). 

The first option is possible, but all that would do is move the merge elsewhere. And that (R)(W) proposal (assuming you keep the (N) out of Queens) makes you lose tph in Astoria since only the (W) would run there and would be forced to run around 7.5 tph due to it having to share local Broadway tracks with the (R) , which would not be enough for Astoria demand.

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55 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

The first option is possible, but all that would do is move the merge elsewhere. And that (R)(W) proposal (assuming you keep the (N) out of Queens) makes you lose tph in Astoria since only the (W) would run there and would be forced to run around 7.5 tph due to it having to share local Broadway tracks with the (R) , which would not be enough for Astoria demand.

Move which merge elsewhere? There would no longer be an (N) merging with the (R)(W) at 34th. The (N) would now go to 96th St/2nd Ave. Under this scenario, the (N) is fully express from Canal to 57th, seven days a week. 

I also don’t understand how the (W) would be limited to just 7.5 tph. With the (N) out of the 60th Street Tunnel and Queens, there should be plenty of excess capacity to run more than just 7.5 tph on the (W). You would then be able to boost the tph on the (W) to make up for the loss of the (N) in Astoria. I can’t see how there wouldn’t be. I read (either further back in this thread or in the Proposals thread) that the sharp curve near the City Hall station limits capacity to 24 tph. I don’t know if it’s true, but let’s assume it is. The (R) would have to operate up to 16.5 tph in order for the (W) to be limited to 7.5 tph. We don’t need to run the (R) that frequently and we definitely can’t turn that many trains at Whitehall. We should easily be able to run at least 14 tph on the (W) between Astoria and Bay Ridge.  

It’s ironic how back in December 1986, people were commenting the 24-hour service between QBL and the 60th Street Tunnel was “long overdue” at a public meeting at Queens Borough Hall (related to the (N) and (R) switching Queens terminals a few months later). Now three decades later, some of us are saying it’s doing more harm than good (although the (R) hasn’t run 24/7 outside of Bay Ridge since 1990).

 

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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On City Hall Curve: yes, it is a capacity restriction. Somewhere in the 21-24tph range. But remember, you can turn trains at Canal St -- a relay move to/from City Hall lower would not be difficult, and would allow you to fill whatever capacity deficit is created by the curve further south if needed. 

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Here's how I would look at it if you're going to De-Interline Broadway :

(W) becomes brown and operates at all times between Bay Ridge and Essex Street with scheduled in-service yard runs extended from/to Broadway Junction.

(R) remains as it is now except for no late-night shuttle since the (W) in this scenario would cover every station on the (R) shuttle except Whitehall, with anyone specifically looking for there being able to do a same platform transfer to any Broadway local train at DeKalb, Jay-Metrotech or Court Street.  Some (R) trains would as needed end and begin at either Whitehall Street or Canal Street

(Q) becomes the second Broadway Local and all times runs Brighton to Astoria.

(N) replaces the (Q) on the SAS and runs express Sea Beach-96th Street at all times.

This would likely eliminate the need for any merges other the (R) with the (Q) in the 60th Street tunnel.

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1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Here's how I would look at it if you're going to De-Interline Broadway :

(W) becomes brown and operates at all times between Bay Ridge and Essex Street with scheduled in-service yard runs extended from/to Broadway Junction.

(R) remains as it is now except for no late-night shuttle since the (W) in this scenario would cover every station on the (R) shuttle except Whitehall, with anyone specifically looking for there being able to do a same platform transfer to any Broadway local train at DeKalb, Jay-Metrotech or Court Street.  Some (R) trains would as needed end and begin at either Whitehall Street or Canal Street

(Q) becomes the second Broadway Local and all times runs Brighton to Astoria.

(N) replaces the (Q) on the SAS and runs express Sea Beach-96th Street at all times.

This would likely eliminate the need for any merges other the (R) with the (Q) in the 60th Street tunnel.

Yeah, because Prince Street doesn’t exist...

The amount of people who will turn trunks upside down to avoid a simple fix never ceases to amaze me...

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2 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Yeah, because Prince Street doesn’t exist...

The amount of people who will turn trunks upside down to avoid a simple fix never ceases to amaze me...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this remark...

The last time Prince Street interlocking was used regularly (2010-16) was an absolute disaster

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14 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this remark...

The last time Prince Street interlocking was used regularly (2010-16) was an absolute disaster

It is still used on weekends by the (N) and during late nights by the (Q) .

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20 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

It is still used on weekends by the (N) and during late nights by the (Q) .

Yeah but that's not regular use. The (N) used it 7 days a week when the (W) was eliminated.

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Just now, Around the Horn said:

Yeah but that's not regular use. The (N) used it 7 days a week when the (W) was eliminated.

Our definitions of regular use differ. It is regularly used during late nights and weekends. An interlocking not in regular use would be the interlocking at 34th-Penn Station.

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47 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Yeah but that's not regular use. The (N) used it 7 days a week when the (W) was eliminated.

Please don't remind me...the delays...

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1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this remark...

The last time Prince Street interlocking was used regularly (2010-16) was an absolute disaster

He said the (Q) would be local on Broadway yet stated the only merge would be between the (R) and (Q) at the 11th St cut.

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33 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

He said the (Q) would be local on Broadway yet stated the only merge would be between the (R) and (Q) at the 11th St cut.

I'm done.

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10 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Move which merge elsewhere? There would no longer be an (N) merging with the (R)(W) at 34th. The (N) would now go to 96th St/2nd Ave. Under this scenario, the (N) is fully express from Canal to 57th, seven days a week. 

I also don’t understand how the (W) would be limited to just 7.5 tph. With the (N) out of the 60th Street Tunnel and Queens, there should be plenty of excess capacity to run more than just 7.5 tph on the (W). You would then be able to boost the tph on the (W) to make up for the loss of the (N) in Astoria. I can’t see how there wouldn’t be. I read (either further back in this thread or in the Proposals thread) that the sharp curve near the City Hall station limits capacity to 24 tph. I don’t know if it’s true, but let’s assume it is. The (R) would have to operate up to 16.5 tph in order for the (W) to be limited to 7.5 tph. We don’t need to run the (R) that frequently and we definitely can’t turn that many trains at Whitehall. We should easily be able to run at least 14 tph on the (W) between Astoria and Bay Ridge.  

It’s ironic how back in December 1986, people were commenting the 24-hour service between QBL and the 60th Street Tunnel was “long overdue” at a public meeting at Queens Borough Hall (related to the (N) and (R) switching Queens terminals a few months later). Now three decades later, some of us are saying it’s doing more harm than good (although the (R) hasn’t run 24/7 outside of Bay Ridge since 1990).

 

For the first part, I thought you were referring to the (N) staying in Queens.

And for the second part, I guess you're right. I was not aware that Broadway local could run 21-24 tph. The ideal service pattern would be this then:

(R) Bay Ridge-Forest Hills (7.5 tph)

(K) Bay Ridge-Bowery (7.5 tph)

(W) Whitehall-Astoria (15 tph)

(N) and (Q) to 96 St/2 Av deinterlined

This gives the Broadway local roughly 22.5 tph, and ups the Broadway express capacity as well to about the same, if not more.

Edited by Bay Ridge Express

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1 hour ago, Lex said:

I'm done.

Am I missing something here? He (Wallyhorse) wrote that the (Q) would be the Broadway local to Astoria and didn’t say it would be rerouted via Montague so the I’m assuming it’s still via the bridge. This means the (Q) would have to switch from the express to local at Prince (which would just delay service like the 34th junction). That is in no way a reasonable plan.

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7 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Am I missing something here? He (Wallyhorse) wrote that the (Q) would be the Broadway local to Astoria and didn’t say it would be rerouted via Montague so the I’m assuming it’s still via the bridge. This means the (Q) would have to switch from the express to local at Prince (which would just delay service like the 34th junction). That is in no way a reasonable plan.

I know. The fact that he completely failed to consider a southern merge is why I said it.

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1 minute ago, Lex said:

I know. The fact that he completely failed to consider a southern merge is why I said it.

Oh ok then lol. I thought you meant that to me since you quoted me.

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2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

For the first part, I thought you were referring to the (N) staying in Queens.

And for the second part, I guess you're right. I was not aware that Broadway local could run 21-24 tph. The ideal service pattern would be this then:

(R) Bay Ridge-Forest Hills (7.5 tph)

(K) Bay Ridge-Bowery (7.5 tph)

(W) Whitehall-Astoria (15 tph)

(N) and (Q) to 96 St/2 Av deinterlined

This gives the Broadway local roughly 22.5 tph, and ups the Broadway express capacity as well to about the same, if not more.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but why not just move the weekday switching to 57th St instead of 34th St? 34th St interlocking has a low-MPH switch compared to 57th St if I remember correctly.

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53 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but why not just move the weekday switching to 57th St instead of 34th St? 34th St interlocking has a low-MPH switch compared to 57th St if I remember correctly.

They're both as bad as each other. Moving the merge wouldn't change anything.

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I just don’t understand why people are making this so complicated...

The limits on Broadway line capacity are as follows:

-Bay Ridge terminal capacity: 20tph or more

-Dekalb Avenue junction capacity: 20tph

-City Hall Curve capacity: 21-24tph

-Astoria terminal capacity: 15tph

-Queens Boulevard local capacity: 10tph, 15tph with competent operation at Forest Hills

The 20 from Dekalb is easy to sort out: 10tph of (N) and (Q) straightrailed up and down Broadway express between 96 and the junction. 

Putting the northern limits together, we have 25 or 30tph of capacity in Queens today. Run that south, and the first barrier you hit is City Hall. Short turn everything over 20tph at Canal relaying downstairs at City Hall, and run the other 20 through to Bay Ridge. Done. And if/when you want to remove the (R) from Queens Boulevard, you either upgrade Astoria to handle 25-30, or you run an efficient short turn terminal at Queensboro Plaza and have the QB expats turn on the middle track at 39 Ave. It isn’t like those trains would carry air, (7) transfer loads being what they are. 

This isn’t rocket science, folks. 

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10 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

They're both as bad as each other. Moving the merge wouldn't change anything.

Also because (MTA) wanted (N) to serve 49 St. Unfortunately that does more harm than good.

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9 hours ago, RR503 said:

I just don’t understand why people are making this so complicated...

The limits on Broadway line capacity are as follows:

-Bay Ridge terminal capacity: 20tph or more

-Dekalb Avenue junction capacity: 20tph

-City Hall Curve capacity: 21-24tph

-Astoria terminal capacity: 15tph

-Queens Boulevard local capacity: 10tph, 15tph with competent operation at Forest Hills

The 20 from Dekalb is easy to sort out: 10tph of (N) and (Q) straightrailed up and down Broadway express between 96 and the junction. 

Putting the northern limits together, we have 25 or 30tph of capacity in Queens today. Run that south, and the first barrier you hit is City Hall. Short turn everything over 20tph at Canal relaying downstairs at City Hall, and run the other 20 through to Bay Ridge. Done. And if/when you want to remove the (R) from Queens Boulevard, you either upgrade Astoria to handle 25-30, or you run an efficient short turn terminal at Queensboro Plaza and have the QB expats turn on the middle track at 39 Ave. It isn’t like those trains would carry air, (7) transfer loads being what they are. 

This isn’t rocket science, folks. 

What's also not rocket science is the (MTA) being able to streamline multiple tph during the (L) off-peak hours by terminating alternating trains at 8 Av, 6 Av, and Union Sq and different locations in Brooklyn using even single track operation. Unfortunately, they choose to run 3 tph. Less is always more with the (MTA) .

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2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Also because (MTA) wanted (N) to serve 49 St. Unfortunately that does more harm than good.

But why? 49th St already has the (R) and (W), why do all this extra non-sense?

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1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

But why? 49th St already has the (R) and (W), why do all this extra non-sense?

High ridership and it's also apparently a popular spot for Astoria riders, but yes, it is nonsense.

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