Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train

[R68OnBroadway]

If we go for an  pattern with Broadway deinterlining, what service patterns do you guys think are best for each time? (Here are mine; rush hours, middays and evening are all put together into weekdays)

 96-CI all times; late nights via Broadway local 

 96- CI all times; express in Manhattan all times 

 Astoria- Bay Ridge (same pattern all times)

 Forest Hills- Whitehall/Canal, weekdays only 

 same as today

 same as today 

 WTC- Forest Hills via QBL local/53/8th local; weekdays only 

 weekdays same pattern as today; weekends extended to Forest Hills; late nights to Essex 

 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

It’s a good plan overall, but I don’t think you’ll be able to fit the ,  and  on the QB local tracks and turn all three of them at Continental. It’s either the  or the . If you choose the , then you’d have to reroute the  to the 63rd Street Tunnel, because the ,  and  won’t all fit in the 53rd Street tunnel. And it would be one hell of a merge at Queens Plaza.

Quote

High ridership and it's also apparently a popular spot for Astoria riders, but yes, it is nonsense.

For Astoria riders concerned about the loss of the , if the  ran as the full time Broadway/4th Ave local from Astoria to Bay Ridge, then all Astoria trains would still stop at 49th Street. Guaranteed.

Edited June 24, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Around the Horn]

10 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

If we go for an  pattern with Broadway deinterlining, what service patterns do you guys think are best for each time? (Here are mine; rush hours, middays and evening are all put together into weekdays)

Broadway Express

 96-CI late nights via Broadway Local

 96-CI

Broadway Local

 Astoria-Bay Ridge

 Astoria-Whitehall/Canal (short turn 's basically) weekdays only

 

 to 8th Avenue Express,  to 63rd,  8 Av/QBL local all times except late nights 

[JeremiahC99]

3 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

If we go for an  pattern with Broadway deinterlining, what service patterns do you guys think are best for each time? (Here are mine; rush hours, middays and evening are all put together into weekdays)

 96-CI all times; late nights via Broadway local 

 96- CI all times; express in Manhattan all times 

 Astoria- Bay Ridge (same pattern all times)

 Forest Hills- Whitehall/Canal, weekdays only 

 same as today

 same as today 

 WTC- Forest Hills via QBL local/53/8th local; weekdays only 

 weekdays same pattern as today; weekends extended to Forest Hills; late nights to Essex 

 

This is all cool, but would having the  running into Manhattan via Broadway at all times including late nights provide the same benefits as the current late night  local in Manhattan? Keep in mind that late night  express service in Manhattan was eliminated in 2014 to reduce wait times at the local stations, which had growing ridership. I honestly feel that during late nights, both the  and  should all run local at night to increase late night service for years to come.

[R68OnBroadway]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

This is all cool, but would having the  running into Manhattan via Broadway at all times including late nights provide the same benefits as the current late night  local in Manhattan? Keep in mind that late night  express service in Manhattan was eliminated in 2014 to reduce wait times at the local stations, which had growing ridership. I honestly feel that during late nights, both the  and  should all run local at night to increase late night service for years to come.

I said the  would run the same service pattern at all times (Astoria-Bay Ridge via Broadway local/Montague/4th local). As for the , it would still run via the local and Montague at night, but the  would now run express on Broadway at night again.

[Wallyhorse]

On 6/23/2019 at 6:29 PM, R68OnBroadway said:

He said the  would be local on Broadway yet stated the only merge would be between the  and  at the 11th St cut.

Yes.  That ALSO would mean the would ALSO be operating via the tunnel (I should have clarified this).  That should have been obvious, but here it is again with that added:

becomes brown and operates at all times between Bay Ridge and Essex Street with scheduled in-service yard runs extended from/to Broadway Junction.

 remains as it is now except for no late-night shuttle since the  in this scenario would cover every station on the  shuttle except Whitehall, with anyone specifically looking for there being able to do a same platform transfer to any Broadway local train at DeKalb, Jay-Metrotech or Court Street.  Some  trains would as needed end and begin at either Whitehall Street or Canal Street due to the changes.

becomes the second Broadway Local and all times runs Brighton to Astoria and operates via the Montague Tunnel at all times like the Brown  used to.  This is why some trains would start at either Whitehall or Canal Street as needed since the would also operate via Montague.

 replaces the  on the SAS and runs express Sea Beach-96th Street at all times.  The would ALWAYS operate via the bridge BUT would stop at DeKalb avenue late nights.

This would likely eliminate the need for any merges other the  with the  in the 60th Street tunnel.

Hope this explains it better.
 

22 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Am I missing something here? He (Wallyhorse) wrote that the  would be the Broadway local to Astoria and didn’t say it would be rerouted via Montague so the I’m assuming it’s still via the bridge. This means the  would have to switch from the express to local at Prince (which would just delay service like the 34th junction). That is in no way a reasonable plan.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Wallyhorse
Forgot to add a symbol

[R68OnBroadway]

14 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Yes.  That ALSO would mean the would ALSO be operating via the tunnel (I should have clarified this).  That should have been obvious, but here it is again with that added:

becomes brown and operates at all times between Bay Ridge and Essex Street with scheduled in-service yard runs extended from/to Broadway Junction.

 remains as it is now except for no late-night shuttle since the  in this scenario would cover every station on the  shuttle except Whitehall, with anyone specifically looking for there being able to do a same platform transfer to any Broadway local train at DeKalb, Jay-Metrotech or Court Street.  Some  trains would as needed end and begin at either Whitehall Street or Canal Street due to the changes.

becomes the second Broadway Local and all times runs Brighton to Astoria and operates via the Montague Tunnel at all times like the Brown  used to.  This is why some trains would start at either Whitehall or Canal Street as needed since the would also operate via Montague.

 replaces the  on the SAS and runs express Sea Beach-96th Street at all times.  The would ALWAYS operate via the bridge BUT would stop at DeKalb avenue late nights.

This would likely eliminate the need for any merges other the  with the  in the 60th Street tunnel.

Hope this explains it better.
 

So now we are screwing Brighton and giving the only line at DeKalb not maligned by merging a merge? The  is shit with four (permanent) merges; this plan leaves us with 3   ( at DeKalb and 11th and the  at Queens Plaza). The only good thing from this is that the DeKalb lines could get a TPH increase but that can be done better with dispatch trusting operators to use the punchboxes correctly (which they will). Doing this plan is a great way to crowd the  and tank weekend Brighton ridership (which could be mitigated a bit by running the  on weekends but it’ll suck like the  because of all the flagging on CPW).

It’s not that hard guys. This is how Broadway tracks correspond to their respective branches.

4th local-Montague-Bway local-60th-Astoria(QBL can also be added but I’d prefer shifting the  to 63rd and adding a second service from WTC-Forest Hills to make the locals more attractive).

Sea Beach-4th express-Bridge-Bway express-2nd. Astoria doesn’t need express service and is probably one of the few communities that would probably support getting local only service if it was more reliable. 

Brighton local-Bridge-Bway express-2nd. This is already in place and is great since it gives the UES an alternate route to Brooklyn that bypasses lower Manhattan and covers some of the areas the IRT is near (Flatbush Av and part of Nostrand.)

[Wallyhorse]

3 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

So now we are screwing Brighton and giving the only line at DeKalb not maligned by merging a merge? The  is shit with four (permanent) merges; this plan leaves us with 3   ( at DeKalb and 11th and the  at Queens Plaza). The only good thing from this is that the DeKalb lines could get a TPH increase but that can be done better with dispatch trusting operators to use the punchboxes correctly (which they will). Doing this plan is a great way to crowd the  and tank weekend Brighton ridership (which could be mitigated a bit by running the  on weekends but it’ll suck like the  because of all the flagging on CPW).

It’s not that hard guys. This is how Broadway tracks correspond to their respective branches.

4th local-Montague-Bway local-60th-Astoria(QBL can also be added but I’d prefer shifting the  to 63rd and adding a second service from WTC-Forest Hills to make the locals more attractive).

Sea Beach-4th express-Bridge-Bway express-2nd. Astoria doesn’t need express service and is probably one of the few communities that would probably support getting local only service if it was more reliable. 

Brighton local-Bridge-Bway express-2nd. This is already in place and is great since it gives the UES an alternate route to Brooklyn that bypasses lower Manhattan and covers some of the areas the IRT is near (Flatbush Av and part of Nostrand.)

Point well taken but that creates a new merge with the  and  going to Manhattan south of 36th while having the merge with the  simply moved east/north AND eliminates 6th Avenue service to Queens Plaza and the two 53rd Street stops that include a very busy one at Lexington Avenue.  Keeping that as it is now is the lesser evil.

The way I do it eliminates the merges between local and express on Broadway (the main key to ALL of this), has more 4th avenue service on a shorter route (Bay Ridge-Essex), two Broadway lines plus a Nassau Street line via Montague (why some trains would start at Whitehall or Canal, especially at peak hours) and also gives Brighton riders looking for The Financial District direct service there at all times.  It increases service overall on the Bay Ridge line with two services from 95th and likely cuts down on the delays, especially since the "Brown " would be 24/7 and operate out of Broadway Junction with all yard runs done both ways in-service.

[Deucey]

20 hours ago, RR503 said:

I just don’t understand why people are making this so complicated...

The limits on Broadway line capacity are as follows:

-Bay Ridge terminal capacity: 20tph or more

-Dekalb Avenue junction capacity: 20tph

-City Hall Curve capacity: 21-24tph

-Astoria terminal capacity: 15tph

-Queens Boulevard local capacity: 10tph, 15tph with competent operation at Forest Hills

The 20 from Dekalb is easy to sort out: 10tph of  and  straightrailed up and down Broadway express between 96 and the junction. 

Putting the northern limits together, we have 25 or 30tph of capacity in Queens today. Run that south, and the first barrier you hit is City Hall. Short turn everything over 20tph at Canal relaying downstairs at City Hall, and run the other 20 through to Bay Ridge. Done. And if/when you want to remove the  from Queens Boulevard, you either upgrade Astoria to handle 25-30, or you run an efficient short turn terminal at Queensboro Plaza and have the QB expats turn on the middle track at 39 Ave. It isn’t like those trains would carry air,  transfer loads being what they are. 

This isn’t rocket science, folks. 

The capacity is effectively limited to the minimum permitted distance between trains, route merging, braking distance, and terminal ops (getting trains started), right? And that affects the speeds trains travel on straights, and is exacerbated by severity of curves?

And then it’s reduced by dwell times at stations?

So ultimately, if we don’t already know, what’s the minimum permitted distance between trains?

[R68OnBroadway]

13 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Point well taken but that creates a new merge with the  and  going to Manhattan south of 36th while having the merge with the  simply moved east/north AND eliminates 6th Avenue service to Queens Plaza and the two 53rd Street stops that include a very busy one at Lexington Avenue.  Keeping that as it is now is the lesser evil.

The way I do it eliminates the merges between local and express on Broadway (the main key to ALL of this), has more 4th avenue service on a shorter route (Bay Ridge-Essex), two Broadway lines plus a Nassau Street line via Montague (why some trains would start at Whitehall or Canal, especially at peak hours) and also gives Brighton riders looking for The Financial District direct service there at all times.  It increases service overall on the Bay Ridge line with two services from 95th and likely cuts down on the delays, especially since the "Brown " would be 24/7 and operate out of Broadway Junction with all yard runs done both ways in-service.

I swear to god you never learn. Here are a few key points:

• The  already merge at Rockefeller Center so it's not like anything changes. 
• Downtown is not the center anymore. Brighton riders who want lower Manhattan already have a cross-platform transfer to the  at DeKalb.
• Rerouting the  via 63rd means you would send the  to Astoria and run a "  " from Forest Hills to WTC via QBL local/53rd/8th local. This would give all Queens stops west of Forest Hills a one-seat ride to both 6th Av and 8th Av (except Queens Plaza and Court Square) which could alleviate some crowding on the . I seriously doubt that 53rd will go to shit because of the elimination of 6th Av service. As for Queens Plaza you can take the  (which would be sent there due to the  ) or  and walk the 6-7 blocks (or transfer to the  at Lex-59). If that isn't good then take the  to Grand Central for the  .

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

The capacity is effectively limited to the minimum permitted distance between trains, route merging, braking distance, and terminal ops (getting trains started), right? And that affects the speeds trains travel on straights, and is exacerbated by severity of curves?

And then it’s reduced by dwell times at stations?

So ultimately, if we don’t already know, what’s the minimum permitted distance between trains?

Yes. The basic issue with curves is that capacity gets a hell of a lot harder to maintain when your speed leaving a station is constrained. On some normal bit of track, a train takes, say, 30 seconds to enter, 30 seconds to dwell, and 30 seconds to leave, with another 30 seconds of buffer before the next train comes in. Constrain your leaving speed so that you're taking 45 seconds or a minute to clear station limits, and you have an issue.

The nice thing about this sort of situation is that if you reduce the speed of the following train, you can bring it closer to its leader (slower speed = shorter braking distance = shorter minimum separation) and thus convert the 'dead' time in which the leading train is leaving the station into time when the follower can close in/enter. But NYC especially, those sorts of close-up operations are fraught: they generally require the use of station time cutbacks, which, being (at times poorly signed) conditional one shot timers, are unreliable, prone to inciting variability, and when combined with discipline heavy NYCT policy, sometimes are just not used. I'd imagine that there are a good number of restrictive signal mods thrown into the mix here too. Together, this creates capacity loss. 

Merges, terminals, the braking distances themselves, dwell times, etc, all play roles too -- and all would impact any proposed route -- but the above is the basics of the curve issue.

[JeremiahC99]

3 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

I said the  would run the same service pattern at all times (Astoria-Bay Ridge via Broadway local/Montague/4th local). As for the , it would still run via the local and Montague at night, but the  would now run express on Broadway at night again.

God enough. Hopefully the  and  would be sufficient to handle growing night ridership at the Broadway Local stations.

[Wallyhorse]

2 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

I swear to god you never learn. Here are a few key points:

• The  already merge at Rockefeller Center so it's not like anything changes. 
• Downtown is not the center anymore. Brighton riders who want lower Manhattan already have a cross-platform transfer to the  at DeKalb.
• Rerouting the  via 63rd means you would send the  to Astoria and run a "  " from Forest Hills to WTC via QBL local/53rd/8th local. This would give all Queens stops west of Forest Hills a one-seat ride to both 6th Av and 8th Av (except Queens Plaza and Court Square) which could alleviate some crowding on the . I seriously doubt that 53rd will go to shit because of the elimination of 6th Av service. As for Queens Plaza you can take the  (which would be sent there due to the  ) or  and walk the 6-7 blocks (or transfer to the  at Lex-59). If that isn't good then take the  to Grand Central for the  .

I'm sure some elected officials in Queens would hear about it from their constituents, which is why I keep 53rd/Court Square/QP as it is now.  Anyone on Brighton wanting express service to midtown can take the  at any express stop along the line OR at Atlantic-Barclays walk over to the IRT or 4th Avenue line platforms.

Lesser evil IMO. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

 remains as it is now except for no late-night shuttle since the  in this scenario would cover every station on the  shuttle except Whitehall, with anyone specifically looking for there being able to do a same platform transfer to any Broadway local train at DeKalb, Jay-Metrotech or Court Street.  Some  trains would as needed end and begin at either Whitehall Street or Canal Street due to the changes.

becomes the second Broadway Local and all times runs Brighton to Astoria and operates via the Montague Tunnel at all times like the Brown  used to.  This is why some trains would start at either Whitehall or Canal Street as needed since the would also operate via Montague.
 

No.

Any plan that calls for the  to stay the way it is, is not a solution to the ’s problems.

And making the  the second Broadway Local really isn’t the solution. By making the  fully local via Montague tunnel, you’ll crowd the  at DeKalb (no different from all the past proposals that called for the  to be made fully local that would crowd the  at DeKalb). The  switching from express to local at 34th (Prince on weekends) is not the only source of the ’s problems. All the other merging in Queens plays a role too. As does the overall length of the current  line.

Edited June 25, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

2 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

No.

Any plan that calls for the  to stay the way it is, is not a solution to the ’s problems.

And making the  the second Broadway Local really isn’t the solution. By making the  fully local via Montague tunnel, you’ll crowd the  at DeKalb (no different from all the past proposals that called for the  to be made fully local that would crowd the  at DeKalb). The  switching from express to local at 34th (Prince on weekends) is not[/b] the only source of the ’s problems. All the other merging in Queens plays a role too.

The is a lesser evil there.

And in this version, not all  trains would go to Bay Ridge as the "Brown " would take over that running from Essex at 8 TPH.  You actually can increase service in Manhattan with some trains ending and beginning at Whitehall and Canal, and with the new version of the , the  can possibly even be a 50-50 split of short turns and full-route trains at peak hours with up to 16 TPH on the on QBL.

[darkstar8983]

8 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

No.

Any plan that calls for the  to stay the way it is, is not a solution to the ’s problems.

And making the  the second Broadway Local really isn’t the solution. By making the  fully local via Montague tunnel, you’ll crowd the  at DeKalb (no different from all the past proposals that called for the  to be made fully local that would crowd the  at DeKalb). The  switching from express to local at 34th (Prince on weekends) is not the only source of the ’s problems. All the other merging in Queens plays a role too. As does the overall length of the current  line.

The main problem is that we have 90+ minute long subway routes, which just increases the likelihood for delays at some portion of the route. Wherever feasible, the absolute maximum runtime for any subway route should be reduced to 65-70 mins (really pushing it).

 

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

Yes. The basic issue with curves is that capacity gets a hell of a lot harder to maintain when your speed leaving a station is constrained. On some normal bit of track, a train takes, say, 30 seconds to enter, 30 seconds to dwell, and 30 seconds to leave, with another 30 seconds of buffer before the next train comes in. Constrain your leaving speed so that you're taking 45 seconds or a minute to clear station limits, and you have an issue.

The nice thing about this sort of situation is that if you reduce the speed of the following train, you can bring it closer to its leader (slower speed = shorter braking distance = shorter minimum separation) and thus convert the 'dead' time in which the leading train is leaving the station into time when the follower can close in/enter. But NYC especially, those sorts of close-up operations are fraught: they generally require the use of station time cutbacks, which, being (at times poorly signed) conditional one shot timers, are unreliable, prone to inciting variability, and when combined with discipline heavy NYCT policy, sometimes are just not used. I'd imagine that there are a good number of restrictive signal mods thrown into the mix here too. Together, this creates capacity loss. 

Merges, terminals, the braking distances themselves, dwell times, etc, all play roles too -- and all would impact any proposed route -- but the above is the basics of the curve issue.

So the simplest thing to do with curves is shorter fixed blocks, or longer ones?

[RtrainBlues]

I bet Bay Ridge politicians are going to hear from a lot of constituents after the terrible delays and 20+ minute waits during rush hour tonight.  Why send 5 R trains in a row to Bay Ridge, then have over a 20 minute gap, then 3 more in a row?  Ridiculous that nobody thought to hold the 5th R train in a row at Atlantic for 5+ minutes for a connection to several N and D trains.  Total and utter incompetence at the MTA.  Guess everyone was just asleep and didn't realize there were 5 R's in a row, then a 20 minute gap, then 3 more R's in a row.  Why are we paying these people if they can't make a simple "hold" to spread out the gap?  Every single person who was was responsible for such a gap should no longer have a job.  To have to wait over 20 minutes at 6:05pm for a Bay Ridge R train at 36th tonight was inexcusable, especially when I was on an N train that just missed the 5th R train in a row at 36th.

Edited June 25, 2019 by RtrainBlues

[R68OnBroadway]

25 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

I'm sure some elected officials in Queens would hear about it from their constituents, which is why I keep 53rd/Court Square/QP as it is now.  Anyone on Brighton wanting express service to midtown can take the  at any express stop along the line OR at Atlantic-Barclays walk over to the IRT or 4th Avenue line platforms.

Lesser evil IMO. 

I’m sure these same elected officials would be happy if they learned that service to 8th would see an increase and that there would be extra 6th service at Queensbridge.

How is sending the  via the local and lower Manhattan a “lesser evil”? The  is often SRO before it even leaves Brighton while the Montague tubes see low ridership and the  has seats available at DeKalb. The  is also SRO so unless it gets double its frequency (which won’t happen since Concourse has terrible terminals; Norwood can maybe turn 15 and BPB 8), there is no way for those riders to not either get stuck with slower roundabout commutes or crowd the already crushloaded  and/or have to make the long transfer to the .

Edited June 25, 2019 by R68OnBroadway
forgot to add a word

[RtrainBlues]

Best solution to mitigate delays is to be awake and realize there's a "gap in service".  Then you hold a train to minimize the gap in service, especially when there are 5 trains in a row.  Could someone really be that stupid that he/she didn't realize that during this evening's rush-hour?   if these people aren't awake, these people shouldn't be paid and shouldn't have a job.

Edited June 25, 2019 by RtrainBlues

[RR503]

32 minutes ago, Deucey said:

So the simplest thing to do with curves is shorter fixed blocks, or longer ones?

You want closely spaced signals with as many STs as possible. Or, better yet, CBTC...

 

[Around the Horn]

3 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

•  I seriously doubt that 53rd will go to shit because of the elimination of 6th Av service.

I mean if we're being real here the currently goes to shit each rush hour because its the only service connecting 7th/5th/Lex/Court Sq with PABT and Penn Station. Service on the from 53rd to 6th has very little ridership.

[Lawrence St]

41 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

I’m sure these same elected officials would be happy if they learned that service to 8th would see an increase and that there would be extra 6th service at Queensbridge.

How is sending the  via the local and lower Manhattan a “lesser evil”? The  is often SRO before it even leaves Brighton while the Montague tubes see low ridership and the  has seats available at DeKalb. The  is also SRO so unless it gets double its frequency (which won’t happen since Concourse has terrible terminals; Norwood can maybe turn 15 and BPB 8), there is no way for those riders to not either get stuck with slower roundabout commutes or crowd the already crushloaded  and/or have to make the long transfer to the .

Can't Bedford Park turn more trains because of all that extra trackage?

[RR503]

Bedford Park and Norwood were once scheduled to turn a combined 34tph. IINM, 15 to BPB, 19 to Norwood.

Norwood, for whatever it’s worth, has always struck me as a relatively efficient terminal as NYC goes. In the admittedly few times I’ve visited, I’ve never seen a terminating  dwell more than 50 seconds on the inbound platform. I’m sure a lot of that competence is counterbalanced by what seems a frightfully bad signal system, but still, the basics are there...

[Lex]

15 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Bedford Park and Norwood were once scheduled to turn a combined 34tph. IINM, 15 to BPB, 19 to Norwood.

Norwood, for whatever it’s worth, has always struck me as a relatively efficient terminal as NYC goes. In the admittedly few times I’ve visited, I’ve never seen a terminating  dwell more than 50 seconds on the inbound platform. I’m sure a lot of that competence is counterbalanced by what seems a frightfully bad signal system, but still, the basics are there...

Crew changes normally happen at BPB, so there's that to consider...