Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train

[RR503]

Just now, Lex said:

Crew changes normally happen at BPB, so there's that to consider...

A *well organized* crew change shouldn’t take more than 30 or 40 seconds, which would have essentially no impact on capacity. 

[Lex]

2 minutes ago, RR503 said:

A *well organized* crew change shouldn’t take more than 30 or 40 seconds, which would have essentially no impact on capacity. 

Thing is, the human element is nothing short of chaos, and if something comes up at any point in the change (which would honestly be better with a terminating train, but I don't call the shots), there goes the efficiency.

[RR503]

10 minutes ago, Lex said:

Thing is, the human element is nothing short of chaos, and if something comes up at any point in the change (which would honestly be better with a terminating train, but I don't call the shots), there goes the efficiency.

Oh, totally. System operations are a mess right now. But it being bad and it being irreparable are two different things...

[Lawrence St]

46 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Bedford Park and Norwood were once scheduled to turn a combined 34tph. IINM, 15 to BPB, 19 to Norwood.

Norwood, for whatever it’s worth, has always struck me as a relatively efficient terminal as NYC goes. In the admittedly few times I’ve visited, I’ve never seen a terminating  dwell more than 50 seconds on the inbound platform. I’m sure a lot of that competence is counterbalanced by what seems a frightfully bad signal system, but still, the basics are there...

I've seen, in multiple occasions, trains wrong railing at BPB.

[RR503]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I've seen, in multiple occasions, trains wrong railing at BPB.

Yup. You can say many things about the concourse line, but they sure do know how to run a railroad up there. 

[R68OnBroadway]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

Yup. You can say many things about the concourse line, but they sure do know how to run a railroad up there. 

If only the stations weren’t in bad shape... 

cough cough *Norwood* cough cough 

[Lawrence St]

14 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

If only the stations weren’t in bad shape... 

cough cough *Norwood* cough cough 

I cant believe Norwood is even a station, it's a two track terminal the crews dont even change there. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

12 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

The is a lesser evil there.

And in this version, not all  trains would go to Bay Ridge as the "Brown " would take over that running from Essex at 8 TPH.  You actually can increase service in Manhattan with some trains ending and beginning at Whitehall and Canal, and with the new version of the , the  can possibly even be a 50-50 split of short turns and full-route trains at peak hours with up to 16 TPH on the on QBL.

No it isn’t. 

And adding up to 16 tph to the  on QBL will only make it even more unreliable than it currently is. Astoria needs 16 Broadway tph far more than QB does, because QB also has the  on the local.

The only thing that makes sense about your proposal is the “brown W,” which I’ve also suggested (but with the letter R, although I’m flexible on the letter choices)

[R68OnBroadway]

24 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

No it isn’t. 

And adding up to 16 tph to the  on QBL will only make it even more unreliable than it currently is. Astoria needs 16 Broadway tph far more than QB does, because QB also has the  on the local.

The only thing that makes sense about your proposal is the “brown W,” which I’ve also suggested (but with the letter R, although I’m flexible on the letter choices)

In terms of designation, kill skip stop (which screws the  with 6 TPH) and use the  for Nassau-Bay Ridge.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

If you kill skip-stop, then you’ve got to run an all-stop  much more frequently than 6 tph in rush. And we shouldn’t have to kill it in order to run a Bay Ridge-Nassau train. 

[R68OnBroadway]

16 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

If you kill skip-stop, then you’ve got to run an all-stop  much more frequently than 6 tph in rush. And we shouldn’t have to kill it in order to run a Bay Ridge-Nassau train. 

You’d take the  trips and fold them into the   (that’s what I meant). That should give you 12 TPH during the rush and you could then bump off peak service to 10. Doing this may increase runtime by 5 mins or so, but you’d be greatly benefiting riders and making it actually attractive. Keep in mind that the runtime increase would only affect Jamaica (and that would be countered by more frequent service). Richmond Hill, Woodhaven and the like would all benefit.

I’d actually support killing skip stop in all cases; I only mentioned it with the Nassau-Bay Ridge service as you would have the  designation left over after ending skip stop.

[NewFlyer 230]

9 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

You’d take the  trips and fold them into the   (that’s what I meant). That should give you 12 TPH during the rush and you could then bump off peak service to 10. Doing this may increase runtime by 5 mins or so, but you’d be greatly benefiting riders and making it actually attractive. Keep in mind that the runtime increase would only affect Jamaica (and that would be countered by more frequent service). Richmond Hill, Woodhaven and the like would all benefit.

I’d actually support killing skip stop in all cases; I only mentioned it with the Nassau-Bay Ridge service as you would have the  designation left over after ending skip stop.

Skip stop service shouldn’t have to end on the  and  lines just so that a Nassau Street to Bay Ridge route can work. It takes forever to get from Jamaica Center to Lower Manhattan on the  and  so any time that can be shaved off is welcomed. 

 

[Lex]

2 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Skip stop service shouldn’t have to end on the  and  lines just so that a Nassau Street to Bay Ridge route can work. It takes forever to get from Jamaica Center to Lower Manhattan on the  and  so any time that can be shaved off is welcomed. 

 

Sure, at the cost of the people at a good chunk of intermediate stations for a single hour in the peak direction.

The fact of the matter is, plenty of people will be off the train at Broadway Junction, as large numbers of those riders aren't looking for the Financial District (not to say that the number is necessarily close to 0, but let's be realistic here). Moreover, if we want anything close to more  service during the rush, we should look for ways to facilitate short-turns at Woodhaven Boulevard (these would run to/from Chambers Street as a supplement to the regular , which would effectively require killing skip-stop, anyway).

[Around the Horn]

Kill skip stop but keep the as a peak direction express between Broadway Junction and Marcy Avenue (with expanded service hours of course)

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 6/25/2019 at 1:17 PM, R68OnBroadway said:

You’d take the  trips and fold them into the   (that’s what I meant). That should give you 12 TPH during the rush and you could then bump off peak service to 10. Doing this may increase runtime by 5 mins or so, but you’d be greatly benefiting riders and making it actually attractive. Keep in mind that the runtime increase would only affect Jamaica (and that would be countered by more frequent service). Richmond Hill, Woodhaven and the like would all benefit.

I’d actually support killing skip stop in all cases; I only mentioned it with the Nassau-Bay Ridge service as you would have the  designation left over after ending skip stop.

I’ve suggested something along the lines of this in past “extend the “ discussions, only to get blowback over “ruining skip stop service.” Not that I really agree; if anything, the  seems to have done a pretty good job of that themselves by running it for less than an hour each rush period. But I feel that if only the  trains continue past Broad Street as the Nassau-Bay Ridge, then it should be more than just 6 tph in order to attract riders. 

16 hours ago, Lex said:

Sure, at the cost of the people at a good chunk of intermediate stations for a single hour in the peak direction.

The fact of the matter is, plenty of people will be off the train at Broadway Junction, as large numbers of those riders aren't looking for the Financial District (not to say that the number is necessarily close to 0, but let's be realistic here). Moreover, if we want anything close to more  service during the rush, we should look for ways to facilitate short-turns at Woodhaven Boulevard (these would run to/from Chambers Street as a supplement to the regular , which would effectively require killing skip-stop, anyway).

Quote

Kill skip stop but keep the  as a peak direction express between Broadway Junction and Marcy Avenue (with expanded service hours of course)

With that said about Broadway Junction, I wonder then if we can kill two birds with one stone by having a  that starts at Woodhaven, then goes peak express between Broadway Junction and Marcy, then extends to Bay Ridge via Montague. Or should the Bay Ridge-Nassau service remain a separate “brown R” service from the  and ? 

Edited June 26, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue

[RR503]

17 hours ago, Lex said:

Sure, at the cost of the people at a good chunk of intermediate stations for a single hour in the peak direction.

The fact of the matter is, plenty of people will be off the train at Broadway Junction, as large numbers of those riders aren't looking for the Financial District (not to say that the number is necessarily close to 0, but let's be realistic here). Moreover, if we want anything close to more  service during the rush, we should look for ways to facilitate short-turns at Woodhaven Boulevard (these would run to/from Chambers Street as a supplement to the regular , which would effectively require killing skip-stop, anyway).

Yes. It's so funny that people who spend so much time trying to up frequency for South Brooklyn try to hold it down for Jamaica line riders. Skip stop works on routes with lots of demand from a far out portion of a line to the inner portion of the line, with little ridership in between. The  is hardly that -- lots of people traveling within the route, going to/from Broadway Junction, etc, all of whom are penalized with ridiculously long headways so that Jamaica can get a faster ride in the hopes that fewer people take the  (spoiler alert: that approach has failed). I would love to see the line converted to 12 (or, hell, 15) tph, with half trains short turning at 111, and the Jamaica runs doing express from Bway Jct to Marcy. 

[Caelestor]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I’ve suggested something along the lines of this in past “extend the “ discussions, only to get blowback over “ruining skip stop service.” Not that I really agree; if anything, the  seems to have done a pretty good job of that themselves by running it for less than an hour each rush period. But I feel that if only the  trains continue past Broad Street as the Nassau-Bay Ridge, then it should be more than just 6 tph in order to attract riders. 

With that said about Broadway Junction, I wonder then if we can kill two birds with one stone by having a  that starts at Woodhaven, then goes peak express between Broadway Junction and Marcy, then extends to Bay Ridge via Montague. Or should the Bay Ridge-Nassau service remain a separate “brown R” service from the  and ? 

The real purpose of skip-stop is to run fewer train sets at the peak, but short-turning trains and providing more service, especially west of Broadway Junction, is a much better solution.

23 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Yes. It's so funny that people who spend so much time trying to up frequency for South Brooklyn try to hold it down for Jamaica line riders. Skip stop works on routes with lots of demand from a far out portion of a line to the inner portion of the line, with little ridership in between. The  is hardly that -- lots of people traveling within the route, going to/from Broadway Junction, etc, all of whom are penalized with ridiculously long headways so that Jamaica can get a faster ride in the hopes that fewer people take the  (spoiler alert: that approach has failed). I would love to see the line converted to 12 (or, hell, 15) tph, with half trains short turning at 111, and the Jamaica runs doing express from Bway Jct to Marcy. 

The  should all run on synchronized 8 minute headways at the peak. I'm not certain if any of these trains should be running express - lowering headways, especially west of Broadway Junction, is a bigger priority in my opinion.

[R68OnBroadway]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

Yes. It's so funny that people who spend so much time trying to up frequency for South Brooklyn try to hold it down for Jamaica line riders. Skip stop works on routes with lots of demand from a far out portion of a line to the inner portion of the line, with little ridership in between. The  is hardly that -- lots of people traveling within the route, going to/from Broadway Junction, etc, all of whom are penalized with ridiculously long headways so that Jamaica can get a faster ride in the hopes that fewer people take the  (spoiler alert: that approach has failed). I would love to see the line converted to 12 (or, hell, 15) tph, with half trains short turning at 111, and the Jamaica runs doing express from Bway Jct to Marcy. 

Wouldn’t you be able to gain a few extra TPH across the WillyB by reconnecting Marcy middle to the Williamsburg track?

[Around the Horn]

5 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I’ve suggested something along the lines of this in past “extend the “ discussions, only to get blowback over “ruining skip stop service.” Not that I really agree; if anything, the  seems to have done a pretty good job of that themselves by running it for less than an hour each rush period. But I feel that if only the  trains continue past Broad Street as the Nassau-Bay Ridge, then it should be more than just 6 tph in order to attract riders. 

With that said about Broadway Junction, I wonder then if we can kill two birds with one stone by having a  that starts at Woodhaven, then goes peak express between Broadway Junction and Marcy, then extends to Bay Ridge via Montague. Or should the Bay Ridge-Nassau service remain a separate “brown R” service from the  and ? 

My personal preference is a separate "brown R" service terminating at Essex Street middle with some trips beginning and ending at Broadway Junction to facilitate yard access. My opinion is that we're going to make a new service pattern from scratch, then we should choose the solution that mitigates cascading delays as much as possible first. Ideally, a delay on 4th Avenue should not affect the Jamaica line and vice versa. Separate / and brown service ensures that and in that service pattern, your only issues would be ensuring Essex and Broad run smoothly. Operating Essex and Broad smoothly should be basic operations stuff.

2 hours ago, Caelestor said:

The real purpose of skip-stop is to run fewer train sets at the peak, but short-turning trains and providing more service, especially west of Broadway Junction, is a much better solution.

The  should all run on synchronized 8 minute headways at the peak. I'm not certain if any of these trains should be running express - lowering headways, especially west of Broadway Junction, is a bigger priority in my opinion.

I personally think any changes to the current service are a moot point unless capacity issues along the line are addressed, such as the Williamsburg Bridge and the curves at Essex and Marcy. Deal with those first, allow more trains to run and then we can talk about service patterns.

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

My personal preference is a separate "brown R" service terminating at Essex Street middle with some trips beginning and ending at Broadway Junction to facilitate yard access. My opinion is that we're going to make a new service pattern from scratch, then we should choose the solution that mitigates cascading delays as much as possible first. Ideally, a delay on 4th Avenue should not affect the Jamaica line and vice versa. Separate / and brown service ensures that and in that service pattern, your only issues would be ensuring Essex and Broad run smoothly. Operating Essex and Broad smoothly should be basic operations stuff.

I personally think any changes to the current service are a moot point unless capacity issues along the line are addressed, such as the Williamsburg Bridge and the curves at Essex and Marcy. Deal with those first, allow more trains to run and then we can talk about service patterns.

Right.  Bay Ridge-Essex with scheduled in-service yard runs that end and begin at Broadway Junction (and such noted in schedule timetables) is exactly how I'd being this as now most likely a "Brown ."   Otherwise, I leave the  /  alone.  Skip-stop needs to obviously continue during peak hours along Broadway-Brooklyn and east/north of Broadway Junction.

 

On 6/25/2019 at 11:07 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

No it isn’t. 

And adding up to 16 tph to the  on QBL will only make it even more unreliable than it currently is. Astoria needs 16 Broadway tph far more than QB does, because QB also has the  on the local.

The only thing that makes sense about your proposal is the “brown W,” which I’ve also suggested (but with the letter R, although I’m flexible on the letter choices)

In my plan, the as a whole along with the  would provide a combined 28-30 TPH through the 60th Street tunnel (only two lines, not the present three as the  would take over the SAS and would be the sole Broadway Express) and with the merges at DeKalb (north) and 60th and the Montague Tunnel (south) and no merges at 34th/57th, that allows for more TPH between the remaining lines serving the Broadway Local.  Having some trains end and begin at Whitehall or Canal (which could be done with the "Brown " being a second 4th Avenue local in this scenario running a maximum of 8 TPH) makes this easier since those that start at Canal don't deal with the City Hall curve.  You probably would not need to supplement the with extra Manhattan service if you are running 16-18 trains per hour between Brighton and Astoria.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Wallyhorse

[RR503]

14 hours ago, Caelestor said:

The  should all run on synchronized 8 minute headways at the peak. I'm not certain if any of these trains should be running express - lowering headways, especially west of Broadway Junction, is a bigger priority in my opinion.

Keep in mind that the relationship between capacity and headway isn’t linear. Going from 0 to 8tph brings headways from infinity to 7.5 mins. 8 to 16tph brings them from 7.5 to just under 4. 16tph to 24tph brings from 4ish to 2.5. As such, I really don’t think the calculation for all local service works out. You’re placing a bit insignificant time penalty on commutes from the outer portions of the line — 4-6 minutes, likely. The big caveat is scheduling here (can you align service on outer Jamaica, operations at Myrtle, and the merge at Marcy without ugliness), not patterns IMO.

13 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Wouldn’t you be able to gain a few extra TPH across the WillyB by reconnecting Marcy middle to the Williamsburg track?

Yes, though you could achieve the same thing without cutting service to a busy stop by resignaling the area. 

20 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Skip-stop needs to obviously continue during peak hours along Broadway-Brooklyn and east/north of Broadway Junction.

I’m not even going to touch the second half of your post, but I’m interested to see the ‘logic’ here. Politicians will be unhappy about slower service to Lower Manhattan? Do you realize that the time loss would be minimal and gains quite large? 

[R68OnBroadway]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

Yes, though you could achieve the same thing without cutting service to a busy stop by resignaling the area. 

Wouldn’t it be better though to have trains skip? Most people there are looking for the  to head uptown so wouldn’t it be better to have trains skip for  riders heading downtown? 

[RR503]

17 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Wouldn’t it be better though to have trains skip? Most people there are looking for the  to head uptown so wouldn’t it be better to have trains skip for  riders heading downtown? 

My unscientific observation is that a good number of people seem to commute between Marcy and points on the Jamaica line. Combined with the relatively intense platform crowding issues you see there in rushes, maybe not the best idea to limit access.  

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

Yes, though you could achieve the same thing without cutting service to a busy stop by resignaling the area. 

If that can achieve more trains per hour on the  and , then I’m all for it. It certainly would cost less than relocating Marcy’s platforms closer to the bus station, which is what I’d do if I ran Transit and money were no object (and redesign them so all three tracks can platform at Marcy). Though what to do about the  merging back in with the  between Hewes and Marcy? 

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Wouldn’t it be better though to have trains skip? Most people there are looking for the  to head uptown so wouldn’t it be better to have trains skip for  riders heading downtown? 

Maybe if peak express service replaces skip-stop, run the  local and the  express, with a bump up to 16 tph for combined  service.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

19 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

My personal preference is a separate "brown R" service terminating at Essex Street middle with some trips beginning and ending at Broadway Junction to facilitate yard access. My opinion is that we're going to make a new service pattern from scratch, then we should choose the solution that mitigates cascading delays as much as possible first. Ideally, a delay on 4th Avenue should not affect the Jamaica line and vice versa. Separate / and brown service ensures that and in that service pattern, your only issues would be ensuring Essex and Broad run smoothly. Operating Essex and Broad smoothly should be basic operations stuff.

I personally think any changes to the current service are a moot point unless capacity issues along the line are addressed, such as the Williamsburg Bridge and the curves at Essex and Marcy. Deal with those first, allow more trains to run and then we can talk about service patterns.

Right. Doing the separate “brown R” service and ensuring Broad and Essex operate (relatively) smoothly should be considered as far as fixing the problems with 4th Ave local and the current  line are concerned. Past discussions have called for extending both the  and  to Bay Ridge, but then we’d have a very long  route whose reliability might take a dive. 

22 hours ago, RR503 said:

Yes. It's so funny that people who spend so much time trying to up frequency for South Brooklyn try to hold it down for Jamaica line riders. Skip stop works on routes with lots of demand from a far out portion of a line to the inner portion of the line, with little ridership in between. The  is hardly that -- lots of people traveling within the route, going to/from Broadway Junction, etc, all of whom are penalized with ridiculously long headways so that Jamaica can get a faster ride in the hopes that fewer people take the  (spoiler alert: that approach has failed). I would love to see the line converted to 12 (or, hell, 15) tph, with half trains short turning at 111, and the Jamaica runs doing express from Bway Jct to Marcy. 

I’ll admit that’s something I didn’t know.  I don’t ride the  in Brooklyn or Queens enough to know. What I do know is  /   skip stop service started roughly eight months earlier than  /  skip stop service (December 1988 vs August 1989). We still have the  today, while the  departed South Ferry for the last time in May 2005. My impression has been that  /   service survives to this day for exactly that reason - that there still is enough demand from Jamaica to Lower Manhattan with relatively low ridership in between. The stations in East New York have some of the lowest ridership in Brooklyn. There were some different circumstances that spelled the end of  /  service faster. I seem to recall reading about issues with more stations being made all-stops, like 191st St with its deep-tunnel elevators.  line stations had (and still have) higher ridership. But maybe it also had to do with lots of people traveling within the  route, which you’re stating is now the case with the . 

I don’t disagree that  and  service at the skip stations is criminally low. And I agree that  /  service has failed miserably for the past 30 years in enticing riders off the . Probably nothing short of a parallel rail line to the  in Queens is going to entice riders off it.

But revising the  to better serve Jamaica Ave/Fulton St riders can still be done with or without revising 4th Ave local service. We’ve had lots of past discussions on implementing a  peak express in lieu of skip stop service. I know I’ve spoken out in favor of it. I’d be glad to see Transit consider it. But when (hopefully, not if) they consider what to do about the  train’s perennially poor service, they’re probably not going to consider evaluating future  /  service simultaneously.

And on a side note, I must say I’m pleasantly surprised to see this thread make it to 500 posts.

Edited June 27, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue