Jump to content


Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.
Around the Horn

Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train

Recommended Posts

West End has always had a good bit more ridership than Sea Beach -- it simply has more, better placed stations. However, if you add 59, 53 and 45 to the Sea Beach side of the equation, the balance tips in favor of Sea Beach. Those are 3 high ridership stops. A chart (data excludes 62 and Stillwell b/c transfer stops) to illustrate my point:

oS0JIsH.png

2 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I always thought it was the West End Line that had the higher ridership vs Sea Beach. In past discussions about extending the (J) or (W) to South Brooklyn, I’ve suggested 8th Avenue for the terminal. That’s a station that gets a pretty sizable crowd. But like all Sea Beach stations, it only has two side platforms, so you don’t have a way to use the middle track as a pocket to short-turn or do put-ins there, like you can at 9th Avenue. And those extended (J) or (W) trains wouldn’t be able to serve the 4th Ave local stations in Bay Ridge.

If you're doing Sea Beach, the only stations that can serve as terminals in their current config are 59 St, Kings Highway and 86 St, though all of them would be relays with trains discharging in the path of ongoing traffic. Aside from 9th Avenue, the same is true for West End. If you really want to the secondary local service properly, you really should invest in a proper midline terminal on one of these routes. 

2 hours ago, Lex said:

While it's true that this is a missed opportunity, it also means that those trains to Bay Ridge won't be stuck doing the local stretch north of 59th Street on its own, and having the (W) serve as that second route will address certain issues that would otherwise come up with improvements in Queens to address why the (R) was shifted (back) to Forest Hills in the first place (along with other deficiencies up there).

I tend to agree, though I'd of course love if we could get a yard in Astoria... 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone explain why - based on something I read here, Astoria people will reject having (R) back there due to the loss of express service, when (N) was a workweek and weekend local until last year?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Can someone explain why - based on something I read here, Astoria people will reject having (R) back there due to the loss of express service, when (N) was a workweek and weekend local until last year?

Huh, the (Q) must be chopped liver...

To your actual question, I have no idea. Perhaps it's because people don't want to feel forced into either stopping at every station or making a transfer, even though the time savings and variance of coverage work out to being minimal at best. (Unlike some other areas which actually do see benefit in an express and a local in spite of how poor the tracks are set up, Astoria can't feed into anything other than Broadway, which has a pathetically short express run.)

Personally, I'm more concerned about consistent service patterns and actually fixing issues that make providing more reliable service (or, in one case, any) difficult, along with filling gaps sensibly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Can someone explain why - based on something I read here, Astoria people will reject having (R) back there due to the loss of express service, when (N) was a workweek and weekend local until last year?

 

1 minute ago, Lex said:

Huh, the (Q) must be chopped liver...

To your actual question, I have no idea. Perhaps it's because people don't want to feel forced into either stopping at every station or making a transfer, even though the time savings and variance of coverage work out to being minimal at best. (Unlike some other areas which actually do see benefit in an express and a local in spite of how poor the tracks are set up, Astoria can't feed into anything other than Broadway, which has a pathetically short express run.)

Personally, I'm more concerned about consistent service patterns and actually fixing issues that make providing more reliable service (or, in one case, any) difficult, along with filling gaps sensibly.

I highly doubt that. Their destinations are in the "city", unless they are going past the "city" itself to the residential areas along 4th Avenue or Sea Beach. The Sea Beach Line's long distance between Coney Island and Sunset Park is one of the only reasons why the (N) is express on Broadway and 4th Avenue via the Manhattan Bridge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Can someone explain why - based on something I read here, Astoria people will reject having (R) back there due to the loss of express service, when (N) was a workweek and weekend local until last year?

Unlike other areas, I don’t think Astoria would care much to the loss of express service since most people get off by 34th anyways... if you mentioned that you could increase service and kill the 34th delay, I’m sure almost everyone would be on your side...

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Can someone explain why - based on something I read here, Astoria people will reject having (R) back there due to the loss of express service, when (N) was a workweek and weekend local until last year?

I'm skeptical that this is true. The amount of time saved by the express is small enough that it's likely sucked up in its entirety by variability driven by merges with the (R) and (Q) sb and (R)(W) nb. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RR503 said:

I'm skeptical that this is true. The amount of time saved by the express is small enough that it's likely sucked up in its entirety by variability driven by merges with the (R) and (Q) sb and (R)(W) nb. 

I wasn't even considering that, as the stretch from Canal Street north is actually pretty short. It's practically enough to render any time savings meaningless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK I've got a question...

Why on earth are (R) trains ending at 9th Avenue (forcing the (N) to cover 4th Avenue local below 36th) instead of just dropping out at 59th (where the shuttle buses are, by the way) and relaying at 8th Avenue on Sea Beach with the (N) staying on the express track? All the merging at 36th is a major pain in the ass.

My dad had a nightmare commute earlier this evening where his (R) train got held for 10 minutes between 25th and 36th while two (N) trains passed in front and then had to wait 16 minutes for the next one. It ended up taking him an hour and a half to get from 9th Street to Bay Ridge. Like it doesn't have to be like this and I'm pretty he's not the only one that has to deal with this nonsense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

OK I've got a question...

Why on earth are (R) trains ending at 9th Avenue (forcing the (N) to cover 4th Avenue local below 36th) instead of just dropping out at 59th (where the shuttle buses are, by the way) and relaying at 8th Avenue on Sea Beach with the (N) staying on the express track? All the merging at 36th is a major pain in the ass.

My dad had a nightmare commute earlier this evening where his (R) train got held for 10 minutes between 25th and 36th while two (N) trains passed in front and then had to wait 16 minutes for the next one. It ended up taking him an hour and a half to get from 9th Street to Bay Ridge. Like it doesn't have to be like this and I'm pretty he's not the only one that has to deal with this nonsense.

They used to run shuttle buses up to 36th Street, but they went the cheap way and now dump at 59th. 

In scenarios like this (since it's weekend work), if they can't be routed down to 59th for whatever reason, it might work if they flip-flop the (N) and (R) patterns between Prince Street & 36th Street. That way, the merge at 36th Street is gone, although (R) train riders would need to remember take the (N) instead of the (R). At the very least, if (R) train riders still manage to stay on the (R) into Brooklyn, they can transfer to the (N), and have a better chance of getting the (N) because nobody has to wait for trains to merge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

They used to run shuttle buses up to 36th Street, but they went the cheap way and now dump at 59th.

Or they don't have enough bus operators available because it is a big vacation time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

OK I've got a question...

Why on earth are (R) trains ending at 9th Avenue (forcing the (N) to cover 4th Avenue local below 36th) instead of just dropping out at 59th (where the shuttle buses are, by the way) and relaying at 8th Avenue on Sea Beach with the (N) staying on the express track? All the merging at 36th is a major pain in the ass.

My dad had a nightmare commute earlier this evening where his (R) train got held for 10 minutes between 25th and 36th while two (N) trains passed in front and then had to wait 16 minutes for the next one. It ended up taking him an hour and a half to get from 9th Street to Bay Ridge. Like it doesn't have to be like this and I'm pretty he's not the only one that has to deal with this nonsense.

This is likely a tradition thing. They don’t want to write another new supplement, so they are just recycling an old one because it’s easier that way. There may be a crewing angle here, but you don’t really need platform staff to discharge 5tph and the round trip runtime difference is like 8 mins. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/9/2019 at 10:56 PM, Lex said:

Broadway, which has a pathetically short express run.

Actually, because of the way Broadway is set up, perhaps it’s the best express run:

  1. 57 Street–7 Avenue
  2. 49 Street
  3. 34 Street–Herald Square
  4. 28 Street
  5. 23 Street
  6. 14 Street–Union Square
  7. 8 Street
  8. Price Street
  9. Canal Street
  10. City Hall
  11. Cortlandt Street
  12. Rector Street
  13. Whitehall Street–South Ferry
  14. Court Street
  15. Jay Street–MetroTech
  16. DeKalb Avenue
  17. Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Actually, because of the way Broadway is set up, perhaps it’s the best express run:

  1. 57 Street–7 Avenue
  2. 49 Street
  3. 34 Street–Herald Square
  4. 28 Street
  5. 23 Street
  6. 14 Street–Union Square
  7. 8 Street
  8. Price Street
  9. Canal Street
  10. City Hall
  11. Cortlandt Street
  12. Rector Street
  13. Whitehall Street–South Ferry
  14. Court Street
  15. Jay Street–MetroTech
  16. DeKalb Avenue
  17. Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center

Keep in mind that Canal Street was originally going to be a local stop, but was changed at the last minute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, CenSin said:
  1. 57 Street–7 Avenue
  2. 49 Street (served by Astoria trains, so relevant)
  3. 34 Street–Herald Square
  4. 28 Street
  5. 23 Street
  6. 14 Street–Union Square
  7. 8 Street
  8. Prince Street
  9. Canal Street

This is what I'm talking about. (I deliberately placed no relevance on anything south of Canal Street, as the next express stops are in Brooklyn, well out of relevance to all but a handful.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

Keep in mind that Canal Street was originally going to be a local stop, but was changed at the last minute.

Now that you bring that up, I wonder what it would’ve been like if Broadway was built as planned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CenSin said:

Actually, because of the way Broadway is set up, perhaps it’s the best express run:

  1. 57 Street–7 Avenue
  2. 49 Street
  3. 34 Street–Herald Square
  4. 28 Street
  5. 23 Street
  6. 14 Street–Union Square
  7. 8 Street
  8. Price Street
  9. Canal Street
  10. City Hall
  11. Cortlandt Street
  12. Rector Street
  13. Whitehall Street–South Ferry
  14. Court Street
  15. Jay Street–MetroTech
  16. DeKalb Avenue
  17. Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center

But in general, the (4), (5), (A), (D), and (N) are the only lines in the system that have the longest express runs of all:

1. The (A) between 168th Street in Manhattan and Euclid Avenue in Brooklyn.

2. The (D) between Fordham Road in the Bronx and 36 Street in Brooklyn.

3. The (N) between 34 Street-Herald Square (really should be 57 Street-7 Avenue though) and 59 Street in Brooklyn.

4. The (4) between 125th Street in Manhattan and Utica Avenue in Brooklyn.

5. The (5) between East 180th Street in the Bronx and Franklin Avenue in Brooklyn.

 

Edited by Jemorie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Jemorie said:

4. The (4) between 125th Street in Manhattan and Utica Avenue in Brooklyn.

 

 

Should be the (4) between 149th Street-Grand Concourse (or Burnside Avenue N/B only)) in the Bronx and Utica Avenue in Brooklyn

Edited by GreatOne2k

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 8:41 PM, Lex said:

That really makes me wonder about how the stations are positioned. Depending on where everything is located, that connection could prove to be more trouble than it's worth.

An in-house transfer between 59 Street and Lexington Av-63 St would require a lot of yo-yo-ing unless the MTA eminent domains the adjacent brownstones along Lexington Ave to facilitate a better transfer. If they don't, the proposed transfer would be forced to utilize the upper level Lexington Ave line platform.

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 11:36 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Wow...they really believed the “11th Street Cut” was the greatest thing since Unification (in 1940) to happen to the BMT and IND. In fairness, without the 63rd Street Tunnel (which was more than three decades away), perhaps it was.

It was a relatively cheap way to bring more Queens Blvd local service without having to build an entirely new tunnel, of which had at the time been in the planning stages since the 1930s. The Queens Blvd local tracks were vastly underutilized prior to the 11th Street cut, so anything to mitigate that was seen as a boon.

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 1:31 AM, Around the Horn said:

OK I've got a question...

Why on earth are (R) trains ending at 9th Avenue (forcing the (N) to cover 4th Avenue local below 36th) instead of just dropping out at 59th (where the shuttle buses are, by the way) and relaying at 8th Avenue on Sea Beach with the (N) staying on the express track? All the merging at 36th is a major pain in the ass.

My dad had a nightmare commute earlier this evening where his (R) train got held for 10 minutes between 25th and 36th while two (N) trains passed in front and then had to wait 16 minutes for the next one. It ended up taking him an hour and a half to get from 9th Street to Bay Ridge. Like it doesn't have to be like this and I'm pretty he's not the only one that has to deal with this nonsense.

9 Avenue is a less obstructive terminal than 59 Street is. As you mentioned, terminating at 59 Street would require relaying on the Sea Beach express tracks west of 8 Avenue, whereas 9 Avenue has the center track completely clear, allowing for a much quicker turnaround. Besides, if the terminal was moved, all you'd do is move the merge and change the routes impacted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Lance said:

9 Avenue is a less obstructive terminal than 59 Street is. As you mentioned, terminating at 59 Street would require relaying on the Sea Beach express tracks west of 8 Avenue, whereas 9 Avenue has the center track completely clear, allowing for a much quicker turnaround. Besides, if the terminal was moved, all you'd do is move the merge and change the routes impacted.

The opposite is true in this scenario. Turning at 9th Avenue forces southbound (N)s to diverge from (D)s and merge with (R)s north of 36 St, share a station track with the (R) and then diverge from the (R) as the (R) merges with the (D) (reverse the process and add a merge between (R) and (D) at 9th for nb). That collection of merges means that only one train can occupy 36 St at a time, given that all trains touch each other in an exceedingly small area of track. Unsurprisingly, the GO was an ops disaster, with the merging in the 36 St area causing loads of delays and powering an otherwise-unnecessary cut in (D) service. Moving the (R) terminal operation to 59 allows 36 to operate normally, with the added merge interaction (south of 59) being between only two routes, and taking on a much simpler configuration. Yeah, it’s a relay move to 8th Ave middle, but there would be nothing but the (R) on the local tracks at 59th (so no fumigation issue), and again, a merge with the (N) is a hell of a lot simpler than an assortment of merges with the (D) and (N).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lance said:

An in-house transfer between 59 Street and Lexington Av-63 St would require a lot of yo-yo-ing unless the MTA eminent domains the adjacent brownstones along Lexington Ave to facilitate a better transfer. If they don't, the proposed transfer would be forced to utilize the upper level Lexington Ave line platform.

Lexington Av-63 St platforms are underneath the 4/5 59 street tunnel with the 4/5 tunnel underpinned inside 63/Lex. You can hear IRT Exp roll through on the upper level of 63/lex. It would be very simple to just mine/blast a 3 block hallway along the 4/5 tunnel until it exits onto the 59/lex IRT Exp platform. A moving sidewalk, some NYCT is allergic to would make it 1 station on a map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/9/2019 at 9:08 PM, RR503 said:

West End has always had a good bit more ridership than Sea Beach -- it simply has more, better placed stations. However, if you add 59, 53 and 45 to the Sea Beach side of the equation, the balance tips in favor of Sea Beach. Those are 3 high ridership stops. A chart (data excludes 62 and Stillwell b/c transfer stops) to illustrate my point:

oS0JIsH.png

If you're doing Sea Beach, the only stations that can serve as terminals in their current config are 59 St, Kings Highway and 86 St, though all of them would be relays with trains discharging in the path of ongoing traffic. Aside from 9th Avenue, the same is true for West End. If you really want to the secondary local service properly, you really should invest in a proper midline terminal on one of these routes. 

Good point (and chart) about factoring in 45th, 53rd and 59th.

As for 8th Avenue, does that station station still have its temporary platform built over the unused express trackway? Apologies if this is a silly question, but can it be modified to function as a permanent platform? Then you can have a Sea Beach Line station where trains running on all three active tracks can platform. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick question for those who advocated for one “ terminal “ over the other. I’m speaking about 8th Avenue Sea Beach, 9th Avenue West End and the corresponding Fourth Avenue connections. Where are the crew and the dispatcher facilities supposed to be located ? Do you have to construct or replace existing facilities ? Can you justify the cost incurred ? Temporary or long term investment? Is/was anything left at the 9th Avenue stop for RTO accommodations ? Do the Fourth Avenue tower locations provide the proper environment, crew, dining, dispatcher, and restroom facilities ? Just asking. Carry on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.