Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train

[Wallyhorse]

I would think because there's supposed to be a yard added to 9th Avenue at some point they would have to do the work noted on crew quarters, etc. 
 

2 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Just a quick question for those who advocated for one “ terminal “ over the other. I’m speaking about 8th Avenue Sea Beach, 9th Avenue West End and the corresponding Fourth Avenue connections. Where are the crew and the dispatcher facilities supposed to be located ? Do you have to construct or replace existing facilities ? Can you justify the cost incurred ? Temporary or long term investment? Is/was anything left at the 9th Avenue stop for RTO accommodations ? Do the Fourth Avenue tower locations provide the proper environment, crew, dining, dispatcher, and restroom facilities ? Just asking. Carry on.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Wallyhorse

[Trainmaster5]

30 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would think because there's supposed to be a yard added to 9th Avenue at some point they would have to do the work noted on crew quarters, etc. 
 

 

30 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would think because there's supposed to be a yard added to 9th Avenue at some point they would have to do the work noted on crew quarters, etc. 
 

IIRC the 36th-38th yard already exists between 36th St and the Ninth Avenue stations. The West End trackage passes the yard before it reaches Ninth Avenue heading toward Coney Island. I was asking whether there was still crew quarters or remnants from the Culver Shuttle days still available at Ninth Avenue. Most terminals have offices, locker rooms, crew room, and restrooms at the location. I'm guessing that Ninth Avenue is at least two blocks away from the train yard. Carry on.

[Lawrence St]

6 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

 

IIRC the 36th-38th yard already exists between 36th St and the Ninth Avenue stations. The West End trackage passes the yard before it reaches Ninth Avenue heading toward Coney Island. I was asking whether there was still crew quarters or remnants from the Culver Shuttle days still available at Ninth Avenue. Most terminals have offices, locker rooms, crew room, and restrooms at the location. I'm guessing that Ninth Avenue is at least two blocks away from the train yard. Carry on.

How come the  dosen't have short turns at 36th St or 59th St to drop out and deadhead to the yard?

[Lex]

31 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

How come the  dosen't have short turns at 36th St or 59th St to drop out and deadhead to the yard?

For one, it's not assigned to a Brooklyn yard (at least, not in the same sense as Jamaica)...

I wouldn't be surprised if that was actually done in the past.

[Lawrence St]

4 minutes ago, Lex said:

For one, it's not assigned to a Brooklyn yard (at least, not in the same sense as Jamaica)...

I wouldn't be surprised if that was actually done in the past.

What are the deadhead runs on Sea Beach then?

[Trainmaster5]

39 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

How come the  dosen't have short turns at 36th St or 59th St to drop out and deadhead to the yard?

The last time I was in that yard , 30+ years ago, it was strictly a work train yard with hand throw switches. I don't think it was set up to handle passenger cars back then. Perhaps someone out here has more recent information. BTW isn't the bus depot next to the yard ?  I also think both facilities are on the north side ( Manhattan bound ) of the West End tracks so I'm not sure how that impacts using 36th St or Ninth Avenue as a terminal. Carry on.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

IIRC the 36th-38th yard already exists between 36th St and the Ninth Avenue stations. The West End trackage passes the yard before it reaches Ninth Avenue heading toward Coney Island. I was asking whether there was still crew quarters or remnants from the Culver Shuttle days still available at Ninth Avenue. Most terminals have offices, locker rooms, crew room, and restrooms at the location. I'm guessing that Ninth Avenue is at least two blocks away from the train yard. Carry on.

There's a crew room of some sort on the n/b  platform at 9th Ave, which was very much in use by  crews this past weekend. As for 36 and 59, those both have remnants of their old local towers, which I believe include some crew space. Regardless of that though, you can still theoretically operate a given service pattern without crew facilities at the terminal -- run it like 205, where crews change and access crew space at a nearby stop rather than the last stop. 

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

How come the  dosen't have short turns at 36th St or 59th St to drop out and deadhead to the yard?

There are 2 s per AM that begin service southbound at 36, presumably having come to 36 from CI via West End, using the crossover north of the station to reverse. After the AM rush, two s discharge at 59 and run to CI from there. For the PM, there are 3 s that enter service at 36 northbound. 

It's important to keep in mind that these in-service runs from non-95 St stations in Brooklyn are by no means the only s that are put in/layed up from Brooklyn points. Plenty of s enter service/discharge at 95 and run light to various staging/yard locations from there. 

[RR503]

5 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Good point (and chart) about factoring in 45th, 53rd and 59th.

As for 8th Avenue, does that station station still have its temporary platform built over the unused express trackway? Apologies if this is a silly question, but can it be modified to function as a permanent platform? Then you can have a Sea Beach Line station where trains running on all three active tracks can platform. 

The temporary structure is gone, sadly. I'd love to see Sea Beach (or West End, for that matter) modified in such a way that we can have a functioning midline terminal on one of those lines, though I think that if you're gonna do that, you may as well invest in a place that doesn't add just a stop's worth of service. 

[R68OnBroadway]

What about if they changed crews at 36th similarly to how they change at BPB today?

[RR503]

2 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

What about if they changed crews at 36th similarly to how they change at BPB today?

Provided the facilities there are in fact still usable, they could do that. But if you're coming from, say, 9th Ave, there's no need to do so -- you have a crew room at the terminal. 

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

There's a crew room of some sort on the n/b  platform at 9th Ave, which was very much in use by  crews this past weekend. As for 36 and 59, those both have remnants of their old local towers, which I believe include some crew space. Regardless of that though, you can still theoretically operate a given service pattern without crew facilities at the terminal -- run it like 205, where crews change and access crew space at a nearby stop rather than the last stop. 

 

Thanks for the Ninth Avenue update. I don't know if you're aware that East 180th St, not Dyre, was the primary terminal for the back in the prehistoric era. Similar to the BPB setup we made a crew change at the " East" and the new crew would proceed n/b to Dyre, change ends and then head south. I do recall some IND Fulton St trains bound for the Rockaways made a similar crew change at Euclid Avenue.I'm not familiar with the towers on the 4th Avenue line but most towers I've entered aren't that spacious. You're right about operating a temporary or satellite terminal. Back then certain rules had to be ignored or flat out waived, IIRC. Thanks again. Carry on.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Thanks for the Ninth Avenue update. I don't know if you're aware that East 180th St, not Dyre, was the primary terminal for the back in the prehistoric era. Similar to the BPB setup we made a crew change at the " East" and the new crew would proceed n/b to Dyre, change ends and then head south. I do recall some IND Fulton St trains bound for the Rockaways made a similar crew change at Euclid Avenue.I'm not familiar with the towers on the 4th Avenue line but most towers I've entered aren't that spacious. You're right about operating a temporary or satellite terminal. Back then certain rules had to be ignored or flat out waived, IIRC. Thanks again. Carry on.

It’s so funny that you should mention this. After I made my post, I was looking around the internet for more info on crew room locations and came across this subchat thread with posts about those two locations — operations I had never heard of before today. Funny how things work like that lol

www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1288076&p=1#1288284

As always, it’s amazing to have this historical knowledge on the forum! Thanks for the post. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by RR503

[T to Dyre Avenue]

4 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The last time I was in that yard , 30+ years ago, it was strictly a work train yard with hand throw switches. I don't think it was set up to handle passenger cars back then. Perhaps someone out here has more recent information. BTW isn't the bus depot next to the yard ?  I also think both facilities are on the north side ( Manhattan bound ) of the West End tracks so I'm not sure how that impacts using 36th St or Ninth Avenue as a terminal. Carry on.

I seem to recall reading that the  have long term plans to make that yard capable of storing revenue service trains, primarily from the full length SAS. But I also recall reading that they’re considering fast-tracking the plans for 38th St Yard to store revenue trains. I say, the sooner the better. Would be much better for the  or a full time  4th Ave local to be based in a Brooklyn yard, as opposed to being based all the way up in Jamaica Yard.

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

It’s so funny that you should mention this. After I made my post, I was looking around the internet for more info on crew room locations and came across this subchat thread with posts about those two locations — operations I had never heard of before today. Funny how things work like that lol

www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1288076&p=1#1288284

As always, it’s amazing to have this historical knowledge on the forum! Thanks for the post. 

When I was in school car for C/R the motor instructors told us their experiences in the system in both divisions. They were surprised when I told them that I had a provisional job in the late sixties while I was a college student. I was a RR Porter,  a PM extra so I was sent everywhere. Franklin shuttle crew room was behind the tower at the south end of the n/b platform at Prospect Park station. The Culver shuttle crew room was on the lower level at Ninth Avenue IIRC. The Jamaica line crew room was at the north end of 168th St station platform. Third Avenue el had crew rooms at 149th Street el station and the main one at Gun Hill  Road-WPR on the lower level. When I told them that the south terminal of the Myrtle Avenue el had an outhouse on the platform almost everyone laughed but one motor instructor knew what I meant. The real bathroom was across the street at 370 Jay on the 3rd floor. I  was so dedicated that I started to sweep the center platform at Chambers St  BMT  before I was told to stop  and go for a walk by the supervision on duty. There was also a hidden crew room at the south end of the s/b IND platform at BROADWAY-ENY that you had to climb down and enter the tunnel to access. I never could figure out where the crew room was for the Polo Grounds shuttle but the Atlantic Avenue Canarsie-Fulton el station had a crew room for RTO and Signal below one of the towers there. Believe it or not but sometimes a person can remember something that happened years ago but can't remember what I was doing a week ago. Sorry for rambling on.  Carry on. 

[Around the Horn]

An update on the "work train staging" that got me up in arms last month...

Quote

WORK TRAIN STAGING
Until further notice, Mon to Fri, 7 PM to 10:15 PM

Trains run approximately every 12 minutes

• From 7 PM until 8 PM, trains departing Forest Hills-71 Av in Queens will run approximately every 12 minutes.

Got an at 9th Street at 8:45pm (an R46 of course) and the damn thing was packed up to the doors...

To make matters worse, the next train was 18 minutes away! Looking back at the stringlines now the previous train was 21 minutes in front. Absolutely ridiculous...

The dwells were so bad, however, that the train that was 18 minutes away was only 12 minutes away by the time we got to Bay Ridge Av and we sat for at least a minute in every station south of 36th.

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I seem to recall reading that the  have long term plans to make that yard capable of storing revenue service trains, primarily from the full length SAS. But I also recall reading that they’re considering fast-tracking the plans for 38th St Yard to store revenue trains. I say, the sooner the better. Would be much better for the  or a full time  4th Ave local to be based in a Brooklyn yard, as opposed to being based all the way up in Jamaica Yard.

I saw that somewhere,  too. Personally I'd rather send the to Astoria,  bring the out of mothballs and call it a day. Run those trains to Brooklyn and lay up the clean trains at 38th street yard and those needing maintenance at Coney Island.  Same procedure we use for the fleet.  Could it work  ? Worth a shot IMO. Carry on.

[Eric B]

12 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The last time I was in that yard , 30+ years ago, it was strictly a work train yard with hand throw switches. I don't think it was set up to handle passenger cars back then. Perhaps someone out here has more recent information. BTW isn't the bus depot next to the yard ?  I also think both facilities are on the north side ( Manhattan bound ) of the West End tracks so I'm not sure how that impacts using 36th St or Ninth Avenue as a terminal. Carry on.

 

7 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I seem to recall reading that the  have long term plans to make that yard capable of storing revenue service trains, primarily from the full length SAS. But I also recall reading that they’re considering fast-tracking the plans for 38th St Yard to store revenue trains. I say, the sooner the better. Would be much better for the  or a full time  4th Ave local to be based in a Brooklyn yard, as opposed to being based all the way up in Jamaica Yard.

When  started, and the M was going to 9th Ave and Bap Pkwy, they did store some there during the day. This started around 30 years ago, and ended at some point between 2001 and 2010.

[RR503]

10 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I saw that somewhere,  too. Personally I'd rather send the to Astoria,  bring the out of mothballs and call it a day. Run those trains to Brooklyn and lay up the clean trains at 38th street yard and those needing maintenance at Coney Island.  Same procedure we use for the fleet.  Could it work  ? Worth a shot IMO. Carry on.

With you on  to Astoria and Brooklyn yarding patterns, but I'm increasingly convinced that eliminating the ugly express-local merge at 34 also requires eliminating use of the 11 St cut. City Hall curve is capable of only about 22 tph, and if you want to serve Astoria and QB fully from B'way local, you need more than 22, which means short turning at Canal. In a well operated system, that wouldn't be a problem, but NYCT has a terminal operations issue and discharging trains in the path of other traffic at Canal seems a bit...yikes. I hear this was a problem with the 1968-1976 iteration of this pattern too -- do you know anything about it?

Edited August 14, 2019 by RR503

[Lawrence St]

36 minutes ago, RR503 said:

With you on  to Astoria and Brooklyn yarding patterns, but I'm increasingly convinced that eliminating the ugly express-local merge at 34 also requires eliminating use of the 11 St cut. City Hall curve is capable of only about 22 tph, and if you want to serve Astoria and QB fully from B'way local, you need more than 22, which means short turning at Canal. In a well operated system, that wouldn't be a problem, but NYCT has a terminal operations issue and discharging trains in the path of other traffic at Canal seems a bit...yikes. I hear this was a problem with the 1968-1976 iteration of this pattern too -- do you know anything about it?

Can't they just have the train behind the terminating train at Canal St run 2-4 minutes behind on the schedule since it shouldnt take that long to discharge? Or run the behind train via Bridge.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Lawrence St

[RR503]

39 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Can't they just have the train behind the terminating train at Canal St run 2-4 minutes behind on the schedule since it shouldnt take that long to discharge? Or run the behind train via Bridge.

If you want any decent service level, you cannot schedule gaps in service -- remember, 25tph = a train about every 2.4 minutes. And no, you can't send the train behind via the Bridge because that defeats the whole purpose of eliminating the 34 St merge.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

17 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I saw that somewhere,  too. Personally I'd rather send the to Astoria,  bring the out of mothballs and call it a day. Run those trains to Brooklyn and lay up the clean trains at 38th street yard and those needing maintenance at Coney Island.  Same procedure we use for the fleet.  Could it work  ? Worth a shot IMO. Carry on.

I think it’s worth a shot. It has to be better than the current  operations. I would definitely be in favor of a 24/7  service between Astoria and Bay Ridge with the  serving as the reincarnated . 

7 hours ago, RR503 said:

With you on  to Astoria and Brooklyn yarding patterns, but I'm increasingly convinced that eliminating the ugly express-local merge at 34 also requires eliminating use of the 11 St cut. City Hall curve is capable of only about 22 tph, and if you want to serve Astoria and QB fully from B'way local, you need more than 22, which means short turning at Canal. In a well operated system, that wouldn't be a problem, but NYCT has a terminal operations issue and discharging trains in the path of other traffic at Canal seems a bit...yikes. I hear this was a problem with the 1968-1976 iteration of this pattern too -- do you know anything about it?

Yes, the  merge at 34 (Prince on weekends) has got to go. Moving the  back to Astoria and making the  the new  would facilitate that. Whereas spinning the Brooklyn section of the  off into its own full time line via Nassau might lock us into the current  setup.

Edited August 14, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue

[RR503]

7 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Yes, the  merge at 34 (Prince on weekends) has got to go. Moving the  back to Astoria and making the  the new  would facilitate that. Whereas spinning  the Brooklyn section of the  off into its own full time line via Nassau, might lock us into the current  setup.

My point is that it’s difficult to schedule both Astoria and QB local onto Broadway local without signaling upgrades around City Hall Curve. 22tph isn’t enough for those two corridors, and Canal short turns are, at least in today’s operating environment, quite fraught. If we’re going to deinterline Broadway, I’d like to see an investment in City Hall Lower, a rigorous intervention in terminal ops, or better yet, cessation of 11 St cut service. 

[Union Tpke]

2 minutes ago, RR503 said:

My point is that it’s difficult to schedule both Astoria and QB local onto Broadway local without signaling upgrades around City Hall Curve. 22tph isn’t enough for those two corridors, and Canal short turns are, at least in today’s operating environment, quite fraught. If we’re going to deinterline Broadway, I’d like to see an investment in City Hall Lower, a rigorous intervention in terminal ops, or better yet, cessation of 11 St cut service. 

What kind of signaling upgrades would be needed around City Hall?

[RR503]

6 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

What kind of signaling upgrades would be needed around City Hall?

CBTC, really. It’s exceedingly difficult to signal an area at high frequencies where speeds are so low (you either end up relying a ton on ST, or have to install GT starting waaaay back to keep control lines short), and frankly the cost justification isn’t there for intensive fixed block resignalling anymore. 

[Union Tpke]

Just now, RR503 said:

CBTC, really. It’s exceedingly difficult to signal an area at high frequencies where speeds are so low (you either end up relying a ton on ST, or have to install GT starting waaaay back to keep control lines short), and frankly the cost justification isn’t there for intensive fixed block resignalling anymore. 

How many additional TPH could be run with CBTC through here?