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Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train


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On 10/2/2021 at 12:30 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Well if the current (R) is split, then the (W) has to be extended to Brooklyn. You can’t turn both the (R) and (W) at Whitehall and City Hall Lower isn’t an optimal place to turn an entire line’s worth of trains. However, if the (W) is extended to Brooklyn, it should be all the way down the 4th Ave line to Bay Ridge. It definitely shouldn’t duplicate the (D), nor delay the (D)(N) and Nassau ( R ) at 36th St.

And yes, you really do need the old Nassau St track configuration if you want to run an R there. That may be a factor in why they wouldn’t want to if talk of splitting the (R) ever gains serious traction.

One major difference though:

In a rebuild of the area that un-abandons the northern platforms at Canal Street and Bowery, you can have the (R) come in from Chambers and use the inner tracks at Canal to terminate, something you could NOT do in the old setup.  In the old setup, there was a crossover at the south end of the Canal Street Station that only allowed for trains coming off the Willy B to terminate at Canal, something that would not be there in this version.  Generally, in this setup except for some trains during peak periods, the (R) would terminate on what currently is the northbound track that would go back to being the southbound "express" track (the (J) would go back to being on the old northbound track with both the east and west platforms being used at Canal and Bowery) and would start back on that track. 

And this would be the only (R) train as it would no longer serve Broadway at all (moving full-time to Nassau running the old <RR> "Bankers Special" route from 95th but to Canal Street 24/7).  (N) would be moved to the tunnel and serve lower Manhattan on the Broadway line as the full-time Broadway local (and actually double service to/from Jay-Metrotech and Court Street).

 

On 10/4/2021 at 9:20 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But then, what would replace the (R) during midnights? The (N)? I'd prefer a 24/7 (R) between Bay Ridge and Astoria and have the (N) to continue to 2nd Ave via the (Q). Then we can get rid of that insufferable (N)(R)(W) merge at 34th St. For me, the point of the Astoria  (R) / Forest Hills (W) is to have the northbound (N) no longer merge with them at 34 (or Prince St on weekends) and clogging up the Broadway Line. 

The (M) would have to run to 71st-Continental on weekends if the (W) replaces the (R) on QBL unless the (W) is expanded to weekend service. I would be fine with that.

In this format, the (R) on Nassau would return to being a 24/7 line, actually extended to Metropolitan Avenue in the overnights and on weekends, absorbing the late night and weekend (M) shuttles in that scenario (unless it happens to be a weekend the (M) is running to 96th/2nd, then the (R) would terminate at Canal Street).  This (R) would originate out of East New York with (R) trains on yard runs beginning and ending at Broadway Junction, extended there in both directions and would be scheduled that way.

 

On 10/3/2021 at 8:32 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

This whole idea of a split (R) train is, IMO, bogus from the start. Simple solution is to run the (R) from Astoria to 95th St  days and evenings with a shuttle service midnights in Brooklyn. Give the (W) the Queens Blvd local service weekdays and be done with it. The (E) and (F) bracket the (R) line through most of Manhattan anyway. We have some people and the (MTA) gushing over the new connections in Midtown so why not use it ? This way I think the (R) gets more reliable in Brooklyn and ties in with the (N) line while the (W) becomes a part of the Jamaica yard. Before some people start crying about this thing remember that QBL connection was only a weekday thing when the Brighton local line ran out to Forest Hills. Even when the BMT-IND combination came into being it was the (EE) that provided weekday service only. Just my opinion. Carry on.

While I agree, the current (MTA) would disagree with you IMO. That's why I propose having the (R) run the old <RR> "Bankers Special" except it would be a 24/7 line that would begin and end on the northern part at a rebuilt Canal Street Station (the east/northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery being re-activated) with this (R) ending at Canal Street (except nights and weekends when it would be extended to Metropolitan) and the (J) / (Z) ending at Chambers 24/7.  The (W) as I would do it would mainly be Whitehall-Astoria as it is now with the (N) replacing the (R) as the Broadway local from Brooklyn, but with overflow (W) trains running to Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the (D) with Coney Island Yard as its base.  

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On 10/6/2021 at 1:48 AM, Wallyhorse said:

One major difference though:

In a rebuild of the area that un-abandons the northern platforms at Canal Street and Bowery, you can have the (R) come in from Chambers and use the inner tracks at Canal to terminate, something you could NOT do in the old setup.  In the old setup, there was a crossover at the south end of the Canal Street Station that only allowed for trains coming off the Willy B to terminate at Canal, something that would not be there in this version.  Generally, in this setup except for some trains during peak periods, the (R) would terminate on what currently is the northbound track that would go back to being the southbound "express" track (the (J) would go back to being on the old northbound track with both the east and west platforms being used at Canal and Bowery) and would start back on that track. 

And this would be the only (R) train as it would no longer serve Broadway at all (moving full-time to Nassau running the old <RR> "Bankers Special" route from 95th but to Canal Street 24/7).  (N) would be moved to the tunnel and serve lower Manhattan on the Broadway line as the full-time Broadway local (and actually double service to/from Jay-Metrotech and Court Street).

 

In this format, the (R) on Nassau would return to being a 24/7 line, actually extended to Metropolitan Avenue in the overnights and on weekends, absorbing the late night and weekend (M) shuttles in that scenario (unless it happens to be a weekend the (M) is running to 96th/2nd, then the (R) would terminate at Canal Street).  This (R) would originate out of East New York with (R) trains on yard runs beginning and ending at Broadway Junction, extended there in both directions and would be scheduled that way.

 

While I agree, the current (MTA) would disagree with you IMO. That's why I propose having the (R) run the old <RR> "Bankers Special" except it would be a 24/7 line that would begin and end on the northern part at a rebuilt Canal Street Station (the east/northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery being re-activated) with this (R) ending at Canal Street (except nights and weekends when it would be extended to Metropolitan) and the (J) / (Z) ending at Chambers 24/7.  The (W) as I would do it would mainly be Whitehall-Astoria as it is now with the (N) replacing the (R) as the Broadway local from Brooklyn, but with overflow (W) trains running to Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the (D) with Coney Island Yard as its base.  

But the current MTA are disagreeing with you too. And pretty much everyone else who’s posted in this thread. I think Andy Byford was open to breaking up the (R), but the other Andy forced him out and then Covid struck us badly, so no thought about that (or swapping the (F) and (M) between Queens and Manhattan, which also would have considerably improved (R) train reliability). With Byford back in London and Cuomo’s yes-men in charge now, the MTA seems to have turned back into the sclerotic bureaucracy it was under Ronnie Hakim. 

Unless either the (N) or (W) is being rerouted to Forest Hills to replace the (R), why make the (N) full-time local again and keep the (W) as is? Why not just extend the (W) to Bay Ridge as a second 4th Ave/Bay Ridge local alongside Nassau St ( R ) and leave the (N) as is? 

 

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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13 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But the current MTA are disagreeing with you too. And pretty much everyone else who’s posted in this thread. I think Andy Byford was open to breaking up the (R), but the other Andy forced him out and then Covid struck us badly, so no thought about that (or swapping the (F) and (M) between Queens and Manhattan, which also would have considerably improved (R) train reliability). With Byford back in London and Cuomo’s yes-men in charge now, the MTA seems to have turned back into the sclerotic bureaucracy it was under Ronnie Hakim. 

Unless either the (N) or (W) is being rerouted to Forest Hills to replace the (R), why make the (N) full-time local again and keep the (W) as is? Why not just extend the (W) to Bay Ridge as a second 4th Ave/Bay Ridge local alongside Nassau St ( R ) and leave the (N) as is?

 

Sorry, pressed “Quote” instead going up to the top to select “Edit.” Still not used to that.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
Meant to edit, not quote my post
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56 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But the current MTA are disagreeing with you too. And pretty much everyone else who’s posted in this thread. I think Andy Byford was open to breaking up the (R), but the other Andy forced him out and then Covid struck us badly, so no thought about that (or swapping the (F) and (M) between Queens and Manhattan, which also would have considerably improved (R) train reliability). With Byford back in London and Cuomo’s yes-men in charge now, the MTA seems to have turned back into the sclerotic bureaucracy it was under Ronnie Hakim. 

Unless either the (N) or (W) is being rerouted to Forest Hills to replace the (R), why make the (N) full-time local again and keep the (W) as is? Why not just extend the (W) to Bay Ridge as a second 4th Ave/Bay Ridge local alongside Nassau St ( R ) and leave the (N) as is? 

 

That may be true, but Cuomo is no longer the Governor and Cuomo's "yes men" now have to answer to Kathy Hochul and by 2023 may be answering to someone else as Governor (assuming Cuomo doesn't try to get the Governorship back and is successful doing so).  Perhaps with Cuomo gone and a new Governor in place they would be more open to doing something like re-activating the northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery, which would allow the (R) with the way Canal is now set up and with both platforms at Canal back in operation able to terminate at Canal free and clear of the (J) and (Z), eliminating the need to use Essex as a terminal for a brought-back "Bankers Special" <RR>/"Brown (R)"/(RJ)

As I would do it, the (N) as the full Broadway and 4th Avenue Local (59th in Brooklyn to Lexington and 60th in Manhattan) would become the full-time train to Forest Hills (including overnights, allowing the (E) to return to operating as an express on QBL at all times) while the (W) operates 24/7 from (mainly) Whitehall to Astoria (late nights, the (W) can operate as a shuttle from 34th Street-Astoria if necessary since the (N) and (Q) both would be local in the overnights in Manhattan with overflow (W) trains ending and beginning at Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the (D) if necessary).

This would have it:

"Brown (R)"/<RR>/(RJ): 95th Street-Canal Street (J) / (Z) station via Montague and Nassau with scheduled yard runs that end and begin at Broadway Junction on the (J) and (Z) and are extended there.  Late nights and weekends, extended via Nassau, Broadway-Brooklyn and Myrtle EL to Metropolitan Avenue (M) station, absorbing and eliminating the current (M) shuttles that operate during those times.

(N): Broadway/4th Avenue local Coney Island to 71st-Continental via Montague and QBL

(Q): Same as now

(W): Ditmars Boulevard to Whitehall Street at all times (possibly except late nights when trains would end and begin at 34th Street), overflow trains would end and begin either at 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway on the (D)

This to me would fix a lot of the problems with the (R) moved to a much shorter route (at peak hours in particular) on the Nassau line.

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43 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

That may be true, but Cuomo is no longer the Governor and Cuomo's "yes men" now have to answer to Kathy Hochul and by 2023 may be answering to someone else as Governor (assuming Cuomo doesn't try to get the Governorship back and is successful doing so).  Perhaps with Cuomo gone and a new Governor in place they would be more open to doing something like re-activating the northbound platforms at Canal and Bowery, which would allow the (R) with the way Canal is now set up and with both platforms at Canal back in operation able to terminate at Canal free and clear of the (J) and (Z), eliminating the need to use Essex as a terminal for a brought-back "Bankers Special" <RR>/"Brown (R)"/(RJ)

As I would do it, the (N) as the full Broadway and 4th Avenue Local (59th in Brooklyn to Lexington and 60th in Manhattan) would become the full-time train to Forest Hills (including overnights, allowing the (E) to return to operating as an express on QBL at all times) while the (W) operates 24/7 from (mainly) Whitehall to Astoria (late nights, the (W) can operate as a shuttle from 34th Street-Astoria if necessary since the (N) and (Q) both would be local in the overnights in Manhattan with overflow (W) trains ending and beginning at Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue on the (D) if necessary).

This would have it:

"Brown (R)"/<RR>/(RJ): 95th Street-Canal Street (J) / (Z) station via Montague and Nassau with scheduled yard runs that end and begin at Broadway Junction on the (J) and (Z) and are extended there.  Late nights and weekends, extended via Nassau, Broadway-Brooklyn and Myrtle EL to Metropolitan Avenue (M) station, absorbing and eliminating the current (M) shuttles that operate during those times.

(N): Broadway/4th Avenue local Coney Island to 71st-Continental via Montague and QBL

(Q): Same as now

(W): Ditmars Boulevard to Whitehall Street at all times (possibly except late nights when trains would end and begin at 34th Street), overflow trains would end and begin either at 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway on the (D)

This to me would fix a lot of the problems with the (R) moved to a much shorter route (at peak hours in particular) on the Nassau line.

Switch the Queens terminals for the (N) and (W) - i.e., (N) to Ditmars and (W) to Continental. That would eliminate all those costly, time-consuming yard moves that will rack up mileage on whichever subway cars are assigned to these services. And run the (N) express in Brooklyn between 59th and Pacific-Atlantic. There’s no real reason to swap out one garbage three-borough local (the current (R)) for another, longer garbage three-borough local (your proposed (N)).

Of course, this still remains my preference, both for solving the reliability problems with the current (R) and the endless, incessant (B)(D)(N)(Q) delays at DeKalb Junction…

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2020/10/deinterlining-with-one-switch/

…and I really don’t see why it can’t be done other than good old “This is the way we’ve always done it,” coming from the MTA’s sclerotic bureaucrats.

 

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
Clarifying my response
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14 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Switch the Queens terminals for the (N) and (W) - i.e., (N) to Ditmars and (W) to Continental. That would eliminate all those costly, time-consuming yard moves that will rack up mileage on whichever subway cars are assigned to these services. And run the (N) express in Brooklyn between 59th and Pacific-Atlantic. There’s no real reason to swap out one garbage three-borough local (the current (R)) for another, longer garbage three-borough local (your proposed (N)).

Of course, this still remains my preference… 

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2020/10/deinterlining-with-one-switch/

…and I really don’t see why it can’t be done other than good old “That’s the way we’ve always done it,” coming from the MTA’s sclerotic bureaucrats.

 

If it makes more sense to have the (N) and (W) on the opposite terminals, so be it.

You could keep the (N) express in Brooklyn, but the idea is the (N) except for the very southern portion in Brooklyn would be what was the (R) until 1987, running 4th Avenue and Broadway local to Astoria if the (N) goes there while the (W) runs Whitehall-71st with overflow (W) trains running as noted.

That said, if you can put in a switch at 59th Street (something that is badly needed there) which allows whatever is running to 95th Street to go to the express or local track south of 59th Street, then putting a 6th Avenue train makes more sense and in fact, I have in the past suggested running the (D) to 95th-Bay Ridge in place of the (R) (traditionalists be dammed and some of them were quite upset when I brought this part up before), with the (R) becoming the Brighton local to Astoria and the (N) going back to being to 71-Continental as an express north of 59th (and the (N) not moving to the local track on Broadway and installing what is necessary to allow the (N) to come in from 60th on the express track at 57/7 with the (N) and (R) switching yards). In this scenario, the (B) would return to being the West End local as it was in the past and return to being 24/7 while the (Q) becomes the full-time Brighton Express from 96th-2nd to Brighton Beach at all times. 

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Adding:

I didn't realize in the Vanhookraggan proposal there would be new switches south of 36th Street.  With that in mind, here's how I would do it:

The current (R) is moved to Nassau as originally proposed as the "Brown (R)"/"Bankers Special" <RR>/(RJ), running from 95th-Canal Street (Canal on the (J)/(Z) rebuilt as previously noted with scheduled yard runs in-service extended from and to Broadway Junction on the (J)/(Z) and late nights and weekends extended from and to Metropolitan Avenue, absorbing the late-night and weekend (M) shuttles) as I would expect some pols to still want those south of 36th Street to be able to reach the local stations north of there on 4th Avenue as a one-seat ride, especially those looking to transfer at 9th Street-4th Avenue for the (F) and (G) specifically.  

The (B) also starts at 95th Street and runs to Bedford Park Boulevard (rush hours) or 145th Street (all other times except late nights), 4th Avenue local to 36th Street, then express via 4th Avenue (skips DeKalb) and then its current route except for also being express on Central Park West (with the (A) and (C) both running local on CPW).  Late nights, the (B) would terminate at West 4th with the (D) running local on 6th Avenue.  

The (D) remains where it is as the West End Local

The (N) remains as is and runs Coney Island via Sea Beach to Astoria at all times, however, signal boxes are put in southbound at 5th Avenue-59th Street and 57th Street-7th Avenue so the (N) can run switch to the express track southbound/stay on the express track northbound to 57th Street instead of switching north of 34th (N) is local via Montegue as it is now late nights.

The (Q) remains where it is as the Brighton Local.

The (W) goes to 71st-Continental, running as follows:
All Times except late nights: Brighton Express, running from Brighton Beach to Ditmars Boulevard via Brighton Express, the Montague Tunnel, lower Manhattan and Broadway local.

Late Nights: 34th Street, Times Square or 57th Street to 71st-Continental. This allows the (E) to go back to being a QBL express at all times.

This to me can also work.

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On 10/9/2021 at 7:57 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Adding:

I didn't realize in the Vanhookraggan proposal there would be new switches south of 36th Street.  With that in mind, here's how I would do it:

The current (R) is moved to Nassau as originally proposed as the "Brown (R)"/"Bankers Special" <RR>/(RJ), running from 95th-Canal Street (Canal on the (J)/(Z) rebuilt as previously noted with scheduled yard runs in-service extended from and to Broadway Junction on the (J)/(Z) and late nights and weekends extended from and to Metropolitan Avenue, absorbing the late-night and weekend (M) shuttles) as I would expect some pols to still want those south of 36th Street to be able to reach the local stations north of there on 4th Avenue as a one-seat ride, especially those looking to transfer at 9th Street-4th Avenue for the (F) and (G) specifically.  

The (B) also starts at 95th Street and runs to Bedford Park Boulevard (rush hours) or 145th Street (all other times except late nights), 4th Avenue local to 36th Street, then express via 4th Avenue (skips DeKalb) and then its current route except for also being express on Central Park West (with the (A) and (C) both running local on CPW).  Late nights, the (B) would terminate at West 4th with the (D) running local on 6th Avenue.  

The (D) remains where it is as the West End Local

The (N) remains as is and runs Coney Island via Sea Beach to Astoria at all times, however, signal boxes are put in southbound at 5th Avenue-59th Street and 57th Street-7th Avenue so the (N) can run switch to the express track southbound/stay on the express track northbound to 57th Street instead of switching north of 34th (N) is local via Montegue as it is now late nights.

The (Q) remains where it is as the Brighton Local.

The (W) goes to 71st-Continental, running as follows:
All Times except late nights: Brighton Express, running from Brighton Beach to Ditmars Boulevard via Brighton Express, the Montague Tunnel, lower Manhattan and Broadway local.

Late Nights: 34th Street, Times Square or 57th Street to 71st-Continental. This allows the (E) to go back to being a QBL express at all times.

This to me can also work.

Let me see, if I understand, your plan:

R from Canal to Bay Ridge via Nassau and Montague tunnel and 4th Ave local

(W) from Forest Hills via QBL local and Broadway local to Montague tunnel continuing as a Brighton express

(N) from Astoria swtiching onto the Broadway express north of 57th and continuing as a 4th Ave express onto Sea Beach.

(Q) from 2/96 along Broadway express continuing as a Brighton local

(B) from Bronx/Upper Manhattan along 6th Ave express to 4th Ave express and then transferring to service Bay Ridge

(D) from Bronx along 6th Ave express to 4th Ave express servicing West End

There certainly appears to be a lot of mixing going on in the above scheme.  Also, it seems that too many train services are serving the 4th Ave express.  

So far, it seems that the vanshnookenraggen plan appears to be the best method of addressing the situation in South Brooklyn.  Broadway locals are separated from Broadway express and are separated from 6th Ave expresses very cleanly.  The only downside appears to be that West End will lose their express service, but this can be addressed with the increased overall service, which lowers overall travel time.

 

At the same time, for purposes of this thread, I really want to entertain the possibility of a Nassau-Bay Ridge service and then seeing where everything else ends up.

(Y)  I will call the service Brown-Y, for lack of a better name, and it will run from Canal to Bay Ridge via Nassau and Montague tunnel along the 4th Ave local.

(R) from Forest Hills via QBL local and Broadway local to Whitehall

(N) from Astoria via Broadway local and Montague tunnel to 4th Ave local, continuing as service on the Sea Beach line

(B) and (D) will be 6th Ave expresses and will service the Brighton line, one line express and one line local.

(Q) will start at 96th/2nd and run along the Broadway express and over the bridge servicing the 4th Ave express to West End.  

The 6th Ave lines (assuming that CPW is also deinterlined) will have no interference with any other line.  As such, (B) and (D) can run at full capacity.

(Q) is also fully separated and will run also run at very high capacity.  But both Sea Beach and Bay Ridge passengers will all transfer at 36th for express service, if desired.

Under the above scenario, it is Sea Beach passengers who will lose their direct express service as opposed to the West End passengers.  But the above scenario does produce a very frequent 4th Ave local service between Montague tunnel and 59th street serviced by the combination of (N) and Y trains.  It will provide bettter access to all of Lower Manhattan for many passengers in south Brooklyn, often with only a single cross-platform transfer.  Most importantly, Broadway in Manhattan is deinterlined as no trains will shift between local and express tracks there.

 

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I think this thread ran it's course some time ago and now people are simply beating a dead horse repeatedly.

I also don't see the point of all this considering the system has yet to get back to reasonably normal operations and service levels on account of the whole pandemic situation.

No point in worrying about cleaning up a spill in the kitchen when the entire damn house is on fire.

Edited by R10 2952
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On 10/11/2021 at 3:02 PM, R10 2952 said:

I think this thread ran it's course some time ago and now people are simply beating a dead horse repeatedly.

I also don't see the point of all this considering the system has yet to get back to reasonably normal operations and service levels on account of the whole pandemic situation.

All threads on here are foam. Foamers vs neurotypicals (salary transit planners, engineers, and NGO advocates) never talk about headways. Foamers just care about unique stopping patterns that each runs once a day and you must look at the chalkboard in the stationmaster's office to know the train exist so you can get a photo of it. Actually screw the chalkboard, foamers only want parliamentary trains that no other foamers can take a photo of but them because they gave a $100 bill to the dispatcher to find out when that train runs.

 

I know nobody from "Transit industrial complex" ever posts on this site because they would advocate for "hybrid solution" with "mixed running" and "curb regeneration" , aka street running on pantographs of nyc subway cars aka light rail. Add hydrogen or battery buzzwords too to claim "no wires zero CO2" 

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