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Around the Horn

Bay Ridge area politicians call for split R train

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah right. We're dealing with the (MTA) here. You know the deal... lol

And snipping an important under-river crossing will be easier...?

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2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Not necessarily. You can get away with performing a reroute while STILL deinterlining Broadway. The (MTA) is also putting dwell times as a long term problem, saying that the R211s will replace the R46s in a couple of years... a lot of people will die before that happens.

 

2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Not really. He suggested a lot of short-term fixes (at least shouldn't require years worth of work), but the main problem is how to do it and when the (MTA) will actually do them.

But with this possible (R) split, it may get a little tricky to implement them. By cutting the (R) or any Broadway Local service out of the Montague Tunnel, you either have to base Broadway Local trains in Queens or do long yard moves to Coney Island. If you reroute the (N) to 2nd Avenue (especially if we do get SAS Phase 2 up and running), then you have to replace it with either additional (W) trains or the (R). In the Proposals thread, many of us posted or agreed to running the (J) or another Nassau St service as a part time, complementary line to the (R). But that meant retaining the (R) in Montague (a  new Lower Manhattan Tunnel is for another discussion). Some alternative ideas called for cutting the (R) at Whitehall and having a full time (W) replace it in Brooklyn. That’s a relatively easy service change to make, though it would not be localized to the 4th Ave line and Lower Manhattan, like the K/R split I proposed on page 2 in this thread.

But with a Nassau service taking over as either the sole or primary 4th Ave local train, you’d have to figure out where in Queens you’re going to store and service (R) and (W) trains. Because if they both don’t go to Brooklyn, then there will be lots of extra miles put on those cars getting them either to Jamaica or CI Yard.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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47 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But with this possible (R) split, it may get a little tricky to implement them. By cutting the (R) or any Broadway Local service out of the Montague Tunnel, you either have to base Broadway Local trains in Queens or do long yard moves to Coney Island. If you reroute the (N) to 2nd Avenue (especially if we do get SAS Phase 2 up and running), then you have to replace it with either additional (W) trains or the (R). In the Proposals thread, many of us posted or agreed to running the (J) or another Nassau St service as a part time, complementary line to the (R). But that meant retaining the (R) in Montague (a  new Lower Manhattan Tunnel is for another discussion). Some alternative ideas called for cutting the (R) at Whitehall and having a full time (W) replace it in Brooklyn. That’s a relatively easy service change to make, though it would not be localized to the 4th Ave line and Lower Manhattan, like the K/R split I proposed on page 2 in this thread.

But with a Nassau service taking over as either the sole or primary 4th Ave local train, you’d have to figure out where in Queens you’re going to store and service (R) and (W) trains. Because if they both don’t go to Brooklyn, then there will be lots of extra miles put on those cars getting them either to Jamaica or CI Yard.

I came up with this:

(K) Bay Ridge-Essex St  

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Nassau St Local

(N) Sea Beach-SAS 

Sea Beach Local

4 Av Express (via Bridge)

Broadway Express

2 Av Local

(R) West End/Sea Beach-Astoria 

West End/Sea Beach Local

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Broadway Local

Astoria Local

(W) Whitehall-Forest Hills 

Broadway Local

Queens Blvd Local

 same

 

This way, even if the (W) doesn't go to Coney Island it can still easily access Jamaica yard, and the (R) should be able to access Coney Island yard easily as well. The troubling thing here is the (K) will need to have some extra mileage... I don't know the specifics but a lot of people have been suggesting the (K) to Nassau as a split (R) , how it will access a yard (likely Coney Island) is uncertain. However, its route will be short so it might not be that bad.

Edited by Bay Ridge Express

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10 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I came up with this:

(K) Bay Ridge-Essex St  

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Nassau St Local

(N) Sea Beach-SAS 

Sea Beach Local

4 Av Express (via Bridge)

Broadway Express

2 Av Local

(R) West End/Sea Beach-Astoria 

West End/Sea Beach Local

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Broadway Local

Astoria Local

(W) Whitehall-Forest Hills 

Broadway Local

Queens Blvd Local

 same

 

This way, even if the (W) doesn't go to Coney Island it can still easily access Jamaica yard, and the (R) should be able to access Coney Island yard easily as well. The troubling thing here is the (K) will need to have some extra mileage... I don't know the specifics but a lot of people have been suggesting the (K) to Nassau as a split (R) , how it will access a yard (likely Coney Island) is uncertain. However, its route will be short so it might not be that bad.

This might work, but many old-timers would vehemently protest the (R) being moved off Bay Ridge (I have in the past suggested moving the (R) off Bay Ridge as part of a move back to Astoria in other forums and old-timers go on about how that can't be done because of old-time reasons.   That was one reason my version left the (R) unchanged.

You'd need to bring this new "Brown (K) " up to as many TPH as the (R) was.   

Also, where would the (D) go in all of this?  Back to being the Brighton Express like it once was? 

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16 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I came up with this:

(K) Bay Ridge-Essex St  

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Nassau St Local

(N) Sea Beach-SAS 

Sea Beach Local

4 Av Express (via Bridge)

Broadway Express

2 Av Local

(R) West End/Sea Beach-Astoria 

West End/Sea Beach Local

4 Av Local (via Montague)

Broadway Local

Astoria Local

(W) Whitehall-Forest Hills 

Broadway Local

Queens Blvd Local

 same

 

This way, even if the (W) doesn't go to Coney Island it can still easily access Jamaica yard, and the (R) should be able to access Coney Island yard easily as well. The troubling thing here is the (K) will need to have some extra mileage... I don't know the specifics but a lot of people have been suggesting the (K) to Nassau as a split (R) , how it will access a yard (likely Coney Island) is uncertain. However, its route will be short so it might not be that bad.

Yes, whether the (K) is based in ENY or Coney Island, the trains will have to put on extra mileage to get there. But that will be an issue with pretty much any train that serves Bay Ridge and is based in Brooklyn, unless MTA finally makes a decision to store revenue trains in 38th St Yard (MTA really needs to shit or get off the pot on this!). My concern over splitting the (R) between West End and Sea Beach is that it will likely be a confusing service, both for the riders and the crews. Also, for the West End (R)’s, you’ll have to reinstate the 36th Street merge that the (D) and (brownM) had until 2010. I’m assuming the (D) will still run over West End. 

@Wallyhorse From what I’ve been reading, not just over the past three days, but also in the past, I get the feeling the Bay Ridge community doesn’t have quite the same positive feelings for the letter R, that Middle Village and Ridgewood have/had for the letter M (which is why since 2010, we’ve had the current (M) service instead of the (V) going there). For all we really know, there might be “old-timers” in Bay Ridge who are so disgusted by the poor performance of the (R) train, that they might prefer to make a clean break and want a newer or better service. As for the old time “railfans” who post elsewhere, if they actually live in Bay Ridge, take the (R) regularly and have an overall positive experience with it, then they should bring that up with Congressman Rose, Councilman Branner, et al. Maybe they can come up with some sort of compromise, like the plan I suggested on Page 2 in this thread, where the Forest Hills-Whitehall segment of the current (R) is still called the (R), the Brooklyn segment is rerouted to Essex via the Nassau St Line and renamed the (K) and the weekdays-only (W) runs through Montague to Bay Ridge to supplement the (K) and make yard moves over the (N) line as needed to get to Coney Island Yard. Because the (W) would still be a weekdays-only service, I’m still not convinced that it’s “a no-go” and I’ve already explained why.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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9 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Also, where would the (D) go in all of this?  Back to being the Brighton Express like it once was? 

 

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

My concern over splitting the (R) between West End and Sea Beach is that it will likely be a confusing service, both for the riders and the crews. Also, for the West End (R)’s, you’ll have to reinstate the 36th Street merge that the (D) and (brownM) had until 2010. I’m assuming the (D) will still run over West End. 

I should have been more clear. I wrote "West End/Sea Beach" because whether the new (R) would go to West End (to 9 Av, Bay Pkwy, etc.) or Sea Beach (Bay Pkwy, 86 St, etc.) would be dependent on the communities there and what they would want to have. Since there are some (W) trains that already goes to Sea Beach during rush hours though, I'd say to have the (R) go to West End and reinstate that 36 St (D) and (brownM) merge, with the (D) still running over West End. But like I said in an earlier post, we can reroute trains all we want but if we improve our infrastructure that's when the (R) will really shine. I know some Sea Beach residents that are disgusted with the (R) and it's shameful lol.

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3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

As for the old time “railfans” who post elsewhere, if they actually live in Bay Ridge, take the (R) regularly and have an overall positive experience with it, then they should bring that up with Congressman Rose, Councilman Branner, et al. 

THANK YOU! It's about time someone said that.

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2 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

 

@Wallyhorse From what I’ve been reading, not just over the past three days, but also in the past, I get the feeling the Bay Ridge community doesn’t have quite the same positive feelings for the letter R, that Middle Village and Ridgewood have/had for the letter M (which is why since 2010, we’ve had the current (M) service instead of the (V) going there). For all we really know, there might be “old-timers” in Bay Ridge who are so disgusted by the poor performance of the (R) train, that they might prefer to make a clean break and want a newer or better service. As for the old time “railfans” who post elsewhere, if they actually live in Bay Ridge, take the (R) regularly and have an overall positive experience with it, then they should bring that up with Congressman Rose, Councilman Branner, et al. Maybe they can come up with some sort of compromise, like the plan I suggested on Page 2 in this thread, where the Forest Hills-Whitehall segment of the current (R) is still called the (R), the Brooklyn segment is rerouted to Essex via the Nassau St Line and renamed the (K) and the weekdays-only (W) runs through Montague to Bay Ridge to supplement the (K) and make yard moves over the (N) line as needed to get to Coney Island Yard. Because the (W) would still be a weekdays-only service, I’m still not convinced that it’s “a no-go” and I’ve already explained why.

Your reasoning is sound and I agree with you.  Whether its a new (K) to Essex or the return of the old (slightly expanded) "Brown (R)" there (with whatever runs to Jamaica doing so under a new letter if the (R) is moved to the Eastern Division) IMO, something has to be done 
 

6 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

I should have been more clear. I wrote "West End/Sea Beach" because whether the new (R) would go to West End (to 9 Av, Bay Pkwy, etc.) or Sea Beach (Bay Pkwy, 86 St, etc.) would be dependent on the communities there and what they would want to have. Since there are some (W) trains that already goes to Sea Beach during rush hours though, I'd say to have the (R) go to West End and reinstate that 36 St (D) and (brownM) merge, with the (D) still running over West End. But like I said in an earlier post, we can reroute trains all we want but if we improve our infrastructure that's when the (R) will really shine. I know some Sea Beach residents that are disgusted with the (R) and it's shameful lol.

My thinking here would be if the (R) runs on West End, it should be 24/7 on the West End between Coney Island and 71st-Continental (eliminating the need for the (E) to be a QB local late nights).  Doing that, however, you'd need at least the same number of (K) / (Z) trains running from 95th as the (R) does now if that is the sole line to 95th,  

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3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Yes, whether the (K) is based in ENY or Coney Island, the trains will have to put on extra mileage to get there. But that will be an issue with pretty much any train that serves Bay Ridge and is based in Brooklyn, unless MTA finally makes a decision to store revenue trains in 38th St Yard (MTA really needs to shit or get off the pot on this!).

To shed some light on this, The (MTA) is planning to convert 36th-38th Street Yard to allow space for revenue trains. you can find it in the capital dashboard site, though you might have to do some digging in order to find it.

 

Anyways, as a response to an onging discussion in this thread, As long as a certain train service takes people where they need to/desire to go, then its route designation doesn't matter that much. For what I know, people (say Bay Ridge residents for example) headed for Downtown Manhattan don't care if the route that gets them there is called (R) or (K) or even (Z). As long as they get to downtown Manhattan, that's all they care about

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1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

THANK YOU! It's about time someone said that.

I don't even have to live in bay ridge and I understand it. When I am in Staten Island and return to the city via 86 st, it's usually a 10-20 minute wait.

The last few years I did rely on the (R) elsewhere and it's a bit annoying to wait this long, especially if the (R) is the only line in the area.

Edited by MysteriousBtrain
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7 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Your reasoning is sound and I agree with you.  Whether its a new (K) to Essex or the return of the old (slightly expanded) "Brown (R)" there (with whatever runs to Jamaica doing so under a new letter if the (R) is moved to the Eastern Division) IMO, something has to be done 

If it turns out they really do have some sort of preference to keep the letter R, even if the line is rerouted to a different Manhattan trunk, much like the way Middle Village/Ridgewood residents wanted to keep the letter M, then yes, I’d be open to that. I’m negotiable to the letters being used differently from the way I proposed.

7 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

To shed some light on this, The (MTA) is planning to convert 36th-38th Street Yard to allow space for revenue trains. you can find it in the capital dashboard site, though you might have to do some digging in order to find it.

 

Anyways, as a response to an onging discussion in this thread, As long as a certain train service takes people where they need to/desire to go, then its route designation doesn't matter that much. For what I know, people (say Bay Ridge residents for example) headed for Downtown Manhattan don't care if the route that gets them there is called (R) or (K) or even (Z). As long as they get to downtown Manhattan, that's all they care about

If they don’t care about the letter of the service (unlike Middle Village/Ridgewood), then that’s great too.

Glad to know they are taking action to convert 36th-38th Street Yard. Maybe then, the so-called lack of a yard for an Astoria-Bay Ridge (R) train will no longer be an issue.  

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20 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

@Wallyhorse From what I’ve been reading, not just over the past three days, but also in the past, I get the feeling the Bay Ridge community doesn’t have quite the same positive feelings for the letter R, that Middle Village and Ridgewood have/had for the letter M (which is why since 2010, we’ve had the current (M) service instead of the (V) going there). For all we really know, there might be “old-timers” in Bay Ridge who are so disgusted by the poor performance of the (R) train, that they might prefer to make a clean break and want a newer or better service. As for the old time “railfans” who post elsewhere, if they actually live in Bay Ridge, take the (R) regularly and have an overall positive experience with it, then they should bring that up with Congressman Rose, Councilman Branner, et al. Maybe they can come up with some sort of compromise, like the plan I suggested on Page 2 in this thread, where the Forest Hills-Whitehall segment of the current (R) is still called the (R), the Brooklyn segment is rerouted to Essex via the Nassau St Line and renamed the (K) and the weekdays-only (W) runs through Montague to Bay Ridge to supplement the (K) and make yard moves over the (N) line as needed to get to Coney Island Yard. Because the (W) would still be a weekdays-only service, I’m still not convinced that it’s “a no-go” and I’ve already explained why.

Me personally, I say call it the (R) , call it an extended (J) , a (K) or a (Z) , even a (W) ... as long as we have some sort of reliable service, I'm fine with it (although admittedly it would be cool to see a Nassau line run there).

Edited by Bay Ridge Express

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This was brought up by other people here before but I would like to put it back into discussion: cutting (R) service to 5 tph due to adding CBTC is probably having a negative impact on (R) service right now. I have heard multiple complaints about long waits this weekend. They should consider what other people in this group have proposed when these service changes occur that involve cutting QBL service to 15 tph total: ending the (R) at Queens Plaza, raising the (E)(F) to 7.5 tph each and raising the (R) to 6 or 7.5 tph, and running the (E) or (F) local when they are not running on the same track.

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On 2/21/2019 at 6:38 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

 

How often is the (R) scheduled to run on weekdays and scheduled to run on weekends currently?

I am inquiring about daytime service here.

I think nights is every twenty minutes.

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1 hour ago, Q Broadway Express said:

How often is the (R) scheduled to run on weekdays and scheduled to run on weekends currently?

I am inquiring about daytime service here.

I think nights is every twenty minutes.

6 minutes, rush hours

10 minutes, middays

12 minutes, weekends

20 minutes, nights

You can check the printed schedules online or the trip planner on the MTA’s official website at MTA.info

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3 hours ago, Jemorie said:

6 minutes, rush hours

10 minutes, middays

12 minutes, weekends

20 minutes, nights

You can check the printed schedules online or the trip planner on the MTA’s official website at MTA.info

Thank you Jemorie. I appreciate the tip.

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6 hours ago, W4ST said:

This was brought up by other people here before but I would like to put it back into discussion: cutting (R) service to 5 tph due to adding CBTC is probably having a negative impact on (R) service right now. I have heard multiple complaints about long waits this weekend. They should consider what other people in this group have proposed when these service changes occur that involve cutting QBL service to 15 tph total: ending the (R) at Queens Plaza, raising the (E)(F) to 7.5 tph each and raising the (R) to 6 or 7.5 tph, and running the (E) or (F) local when they are not running on the same track.

I would do something similar, though more on the lines of this:

(R) borrows 160s/179s for the weekend and runs five-car sets from 95th-Essex.  Depending on what was available, those would run in either five or eight car sets.  That solves a myriad of problems.

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10 hours ago, Jemorie said:

6 minutes, rush hours

10 minutes, middays

12 minutes, weekends

20 minutes, nights

You can check the printed schedules online or the trip planner on the MTA’s official website at MTA.info

The (R) is scheduled to be on 12-minute headways or 5 tph, and yet, the waits for the train often end up being much greater than that. This is not acceptable, nor should it have to be. 

2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I would do something similar, though more on the lines of this:

(R) borrows 160s/179s for the weekend and runs five-car sets from 95th-Essex.  Depending on what was available, those would run in either five or eight car sets.  That solves a myriad of problems.

This might be one way to gauge whether or not there really is some advantage to running the Bay Ridge/4th Avenue segment of the (R) to the Nassau St Line. They can gauge whether or not riders like it better before making any kind of permanent change to the full (R) line.

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9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

What was the service pattern during the Mountague closure?

 

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

So what served Canal-Whitehall on weekends?

Did you read the article or, better yet, were you already well aware of this from the start before? Lol, just curious to ask.

8 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The (R) is scheduled to be on 12-minute headways or 5 tph, and yet, the waits for the train often end up being much greater than that. This is not acceptable, nor should it have to be.

All the other lines that the (R) itself interacts with along its run (including across-platform connections) are also scheduled at that aforementioned headway or tph as well - except for the (Q). And I agree, no line in the system should be treated like that at all. This is a subway we're talking about after all and ridership grows yearly. Everyone is always out and about throughout the day and the (MTA) has to step up their game one way or the other.

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Agreed. The MTA really needs to step up their game. And they (and the City and State) have got to invest the money to do so. If they run the service on the cheap, then they can’t possibly expect it to run well. You get what you pay for.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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