OMNY Implementation/Metro-Card Retirement Discussion Thread

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 hours ago, mikecintel said:

I see. How would there be too much abuse? When it was pre-covid I always use it for work and going to school and visiting my friends. Isn't the point of an unlimited Metro card you can use it whenever you want or need?

Probably illegal swipes...

[mikecintel]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Probably illegal swipes...

I see.

[Amtrak41]

Someone posted this on another blog: 

"When you use a bank card you don't get a transfer on the card, a paper one can be obtained, if it is a local bus,"

Any truth to this ? 

[danielhg121]

41 minutes ago, Amtrak41 said:

Someone posted this on another blog: 

"When you use a bank card you don't get a transfer on the card, a paper one can be obtained, if it is a local bus,"

Any truth to this ? 

Nah, pretty sure you can get a transfer as long as you tap in with that same card elsewhere.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Amtrak41 said:

Someone posted this on another blog: 

"When you use a bank card you don't get a transfer on the card, a paper one can be obtained, if it is a local bus,"

Any truth to this ? 

 

30 minutes ago, danielhg121 said:

Nah, pretty sure you can get a transfer as long as you tap in with that same card elsewhere.

No, as daniel said, you must tap in with the same contactless card or payment method on your cell phone, so if you use say Apple Pay on your phone to pay originally, you must tap with that same Apple Pay card when you go to transfer, otherwise you'll be charged another fare. There are no paper transfers.

[LTA1992]

Adding to this, calculations are done at the end of the day. So even if there was an error, it would be corrected so long as the transfer happened within the normal window,

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

Adding to this, calculations are done at the end of the day. So even if there was an error, it would be corrected so long as the transfer happened within the normal window,

What calculations and errors are you referring to exactly? 

[bobtehpanda]

6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What calculations and errors are you referring to exactly? 

IIRC, OMNY is based on London's Oyster, and Oyster charges all the trips at the end of the/a day rather than at the exact moment at time. They do this because

• they have zoned fares and when you tap in the charge is the maximum zoned fare, but when you tap out it gets recalculated (this is also how they encourage tap outs, because if you're don't you're taking the L on the fare charge, not them)
• they have their day cap on fares, so you can only get charged some maximum amount of total fare a day

Systems can go offline or be slower for a variety of reasons, and so waiting for the day allows the system to be reasonably sure that they are charging you the correct fares.

The other thing is that bundling the payments in such a manner allows one to save on transaction fees charged by the payment networks and banks. This isn't unusual, off the top of my head iTunes charges people in largely the same way.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

IIRC, OMNY is based on London's Oyster, and Oyster charges all the trips at the end of the/a day rather than at the exact moment at time. They do this because

• they have zoned fares and when you tap in the charge is the maximum zoned fare, but when you tap out it gets recalculated (this is also how they encourage tap outs, because if you're don't you're taking the L on the fare charge, not them)
• they have their day cap on fares, so you can only get charged some maximum amount of total fare a day

Systems can go offline or be slower for a variety of reasons, and so waiting for the day allows the system to be reasonably sure that they are charging you the correct fares.

The other thing is that bundling the payments in such a manner allows one to save on transaction fees charged by the payment networks and banks. This isn't unusual, off the top of my head iTunes charges people in largely the same way.

Interesting. Not clear yet what the  will do regarding passes, and any incentives to reward usage, but checking my OMNY account, I have quite a few charges from where they didn't collect the day of, but charged me later on for trips I took days ago. I'm currently owed some money for trips I was charged for didn't take, on days I didn't even travel. I already had to swap out one of my contactless cards because of this, and may have to swap out the card linked to my phone because of OMNY trying to charge me for trips I did not take. I know this for a fact because the charges are usually for $2.75 and I have only taken the local bus twice and both times they were from times when I was transferring from the express bus.

[LTA1992]

11 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

IIRC, OMNY is based on London's Oyster, and Oyster charges all the trips at the end of the/a day rather than at the exact moment at time. They do this because

• they have zoned fares and when you tap in the charge is the maximum zoned fare, but when you tap out it gets recalculated (this is also how they encourage tap outs, because if you're don't you're taking the L on the fare charge, not them)
• they have their day cap on fares, so you can only get charged some maximum amount of total fare a day

Systems can go offline or be slower for a variety of reasons, and so waiting for the day allows the system to be reasonably sure that they are charging you the correct fares.

The other thing is that bundling the payments in such a manner allows one to save on transaction fees charged by the payment networks and banks. This isn't unusual, off the top of my head iTunes charges people in largely the same way.

Thank you for explaining this way better than I would have lol

[Amtrak41]

Which brings to mind how PATH will eventually use this. They currently have their own Smartcard that is to be retired, but they charge on a per ride basis, not money basis. 

[bobtehpanda]

17 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Interesting. Not clear yet what the  will do regarding passes, and any incentives to reward usage, but checking my OMNY account, I have quite a few charges from where they didn't collect the day of, but charged me later on for trips I took days ago. I'm currently owed some money for trips I was charged for didn't take, on days I didn't even travel. I already had to swap out one of my contactless cards because of this, and may have to swap out the card linked to my phone because of OMNY trying to charge me for trips I did not take. I know this for a fact because the charges are usually for $2.75 and I have only taken the local bus twice and both times they were from times when I was transferring from the express bus.

Presumably we will eventually sort it out (after all, the authorities and financial institutions across the pond have been doing this for a decade) but there will be an adjustment period, hence why the protracted rollout.

But generally speaking credit card transactions normally don't clear instantly, since banks want to be diligent about things like fraud, and shenanigans related to transaction fee minutiae. 

4 hours ago, Amtrak41 said:

Which brings to mind how PATH will eventually use this. They currently have their own Smartcard that is to be retired, but they charge on a per ride basis, not money basis. 

IIRC SmarTrip or whatever is stored value on the card itself. The only transactions that occur involving a financial institution are when you load onto the card.

This is different from contactless, which seek to cut out any sort of middleman entirely and just deal with the financial institutions directly.

The main benefit is that the MTA or whatever gets to eliminate some administrative overhead regarding essentially running a secondary payments network, which is no small headache.

Edited February 8, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Presumably we will eventually sort it out (after all, the authorities and financial institutions across the pond have been doing this for a decade) but there will be an adjustment period, hence why the protracted rollout.

But generally speaking credit card transactions normally don't clear instantly, since banks want to be diligent about things like fraud, and shenanigans related to transaction fee minutiae. 

Yeah, but the reality is, the  is still discussing the particulars when it comes to OMNY.

[bobtehpanda]

14 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yeah, but the reality is, the  is still discussing the particulars when it comes to OMNY.

For sure. But Rome wasn't built in a day.

Metrocard was introduced in 93 and we didn't see 100% turnstiles and the full finished version with the free transfers until 97, unlimiteds in 98 and MVMs in 99. Compared to that rollout OMNY has been relatively quick.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

For sure. But Rome wasn't built in a day.

Metrocard was introduced in 93 and we didn't see 100% turnstiles and the full finished version with the free transfers until 97, unlimiteds in 98 and MVMs in 99. Compared to that rollout OMNY has been relatively quick.

Not really. OMNY has been in the works for years as well.

[bobtehpanda]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Not really. OMNY has been in the works for years as well.

They physically started handing out OMNY in 2019 vs today. They started physically handing out MetroCard in 93, a full four years before the last turnstiles were installed in '97.

There were the earlier attempts like the PayPass or whatever, but those don't really have anything to do with OMNY itself.

[LTA1992]

19 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Not really. OMNY has been in the works for years as well.

 

19 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

They physically started handing out OMNY in 2019 vs today. They started physically handing out MetroCard in 93, a full four years before the last turnstiles were installed in '97.

There were the earlier attempts like the PayPass or whatever, but those don't really have anything to do with OMNY itself.

And let's not forget, it was first proposed in 1983. Which means it took about 14 years for Metrocard to be fully implemented.

OMNY started planning in 2016 iirc so this may be the fastest the MTA has ever moved.

Edited February 9, 2021 by LTA1992

[BillAv]

3 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

And let's not forget, it was first proposed in 1983. Which means it took about 14 years for Metrocard to be fully implemented.

Not to put down the speed in which OMNY was completed (I was amazed that they did it so quickly), but I think it's like comparing apples to oranges.  OMNY built on to what already existed - existing turnstiles and electrical hookups - in essence a retrofit.  Going from tokens to MetroCards needed a whole new infrastructure.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

23 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

They physically started handing out OMNY in 2019 vs today. They started physically handing out MetroCard in 93, a full four years before the last turnstiles were installed in '97.

There were the earlier attempts like the PayPass or whatever, but those don't really have anything to do with OMNY itself.

It's still contactless technology, the same tech that OMNY uses.  I remember that pilot and used it a few times with my contactless cards then. Had to be a good 10 years ago.

12 minutes ago, BillAv said:

Not to put down the speed in which OMNY was completed (I was amazed that they did it so quickly), but I think it's like comparing apples to oranges.  OMNY built on to what already existed - existing turnstiles and electrical hookups - in essence a retrofit.  Going from tokens to MetroCards needed a whole new infrastructure.

Agreed.

[bobtehpanda]

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's still contactless technology, the same tech that OMNY uses.  I remember that pilot and used it a few times with my contactless cards then. Had to be a good 10 years ago.

Aye, but the devil's in the details.

Last time around 2012 with PayPass. At the time, Mastercard and Visa wanted everyone to switch from mag stripe cards to chip and pin cards that were also contactless. This transition happened successfully in Europe and Asia, but CVS, Rite Aid, Walmart and a bunch of other big retailers sued the payment networks because MC and Visa wanted the switch to happen by charging lower fees for chip cards. This was found to be an antitrust violation, and once that happened all the big retailers basically said "f**k chip and pin" and sat on their hands. So the banks stopped issuing contactless and then the entire reasoning behind having PayPass save administrative overhead fell apart.

In 2021, nearly every retailer that takes card has a chip reader. And all the chip readers actually already support contactless but in most cases they haven't flipped the switch. Which makes OMNY a more realistic proposition.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

14 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Aye, but the devil's in the details.

Last time around 2012 with PayPass. At the time, Mastercard and Visa wanted everyone to switch from mag stripe cards to chip and pin cards that were also contactless. This transition happened successfully in Europe and Asia, but CVS, Rite Aid, Walmart and a bunch of other big retailers sued the payment networks because MC and Visa wanted the switch to happen by charging lower fees for chip cards. This was found to be an antitrust violation, and once that happened all the big retailers basically said "f**k chip and pin" and sat on their hands. So the banks stopped issuing contactless and then the entire reasoning behind having PayPass save administrative overhead fell apart.

In 2021, nearly every retailer that takes card has a chip reader. And all the chip readers actually already support contactless but in most cases they haven't flipped the switch. Which makes OMNY a more realistic proposition.

I was wondering why it went away because I used to always use it when it was available. My main gripe back then was the readers weren't that good as they are now, but now, most places not only have the contactless option, but it works really fast. I use it everywhere... Coffee shops, CVS, Whole Foods... Very few places don't have it now. It also means your card lasts a lot longer since you aren't swiping.

[bobtehpanda]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I was wondering why it went away because I used to always use it when it was available. My main gripe back then was the readers weren't that good as they are now, but now, most places not only have the contactless option, but it works really fast. I use it everywhere... Coffee shops, CVS, Whole Foods... Very few places don't have it now. It also means your card lasts a lot longer since you aren't swiping.

I mean, the main reason why MC and Visa wanted the switch to happen is because magstripes are also hilariously insecure, and they wanted to cut their fraud losses. There was a point where every few months there was another "oh no, some scammer has stolen credit cards using a skimmer at a Metrocard/LIRR ticket machine".

Of course, Walmart and friends were not happy at the prospect of replacing every single reader in every single store if they didn't have to, and the rest is history.

Edited February 10, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, bobtehpanda said:

I mean, the main reason why MC and Visa wanted the switch to happen is because magstripes are also hilariously insecure, and they wanted to cut their fraud losses.

Of course, Walmart and friends were not happy at the prospect of replacing every single reader in every single store if they didn't have to, and the rest is history.

The funny thing is if you use the contactless feature, you get cash back in some cases. I apparently use it enough to get back $4.00 here and $5.00 there. Fine by me. Basically a free cup of coffee, and pays for part of an express bus ride or something.

[bobtehpanda]

25 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The funny thing is if you use the contactless feature, you get cash back in some cases. I apparently use it enough to get back $4.00 here and $5.00 there. Fine by me. Basically a free cup of coffee, and pays for part of an express bus ride or something.

What's interesting is that the new tech scene has resulted in some smaller upstart payment networks like Square or Stripe, who do things like this as part of their strategy to grab a slice of the pie from MC and Visa.

Which is actually a pretty sound strategy, because MC and Visa have very juicy margins; Visa reported net margins of 64% last year.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

24 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

What's interesting is that the new tech scene has resulted in some smaller upstart payment networks like Square or Stripe, who do things like this as part of their strategy to grab a slice of the pie from MC and Visa.

Which is actually a pretty sound strategy, because MC and Visa have very juicy margins; Visa reported net margins of 64% last year.

Yeah, a lot of places I frequent use Square. The terminals are very nice and sleek.