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Utica Avenue Transit Improvement Study Discussion

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1 minute ago, shiznit1987 said:

Sending the 3 to Flatbush *would* kill the chance of off peak (3) service, since now the (2)(3) pretty much run the same route. The best of both worlds is to leave both the (2) and (3) alone and run the (5) to Utica. Some (4)s will be extended to New Lots to balance the load. 

Doing that would mean that the (5) would have to run to Brooklyn 24/7, the (3) would either stay the same late nights, or could be extended as a local to South Ferry allowing the (2) to run express 24/7 on 7 Avenue. The (5) would run express 24/7 on Lexington Avenue.

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5 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I think you want (3) (possibly with the (5)) to Utica and the (4) to NL. Otherwise you have the (5) crossing in front of the (3), not unlike today. 

I'm not sure how the (5) would mess w/ the (3) seeing as the (4) doesn't. The (4)(5) both would clear Rogers w/o even touching the path of the (2)(3) 

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7 minutes ago, GreatOne2k said:

Doing that would mean that the (5) would have to run to Brooklyn 24/7, the (3) would either stay the same late nights, or could be extended as a local to South Ferry allowing the (2) to run express 24/7 on 7 Avenue. The (5) would run express 24/7 on Lexington Avenue.

The MTA will never do such a thing. It's a nice thought, but budget realities means that if the (2)(3) both go to the same places then only one will suffice overnights (and weekends for that matter, hence Lex's point). The MTA will continue to run only the (2) and (4) into Brooklyn overnight as long as there are only two branches to serve. As far was weekends are concerned, the current pattern is already the best and pretty generous to boot seeing as the MTA could try to get away w/ having the (4) go local after Franklin and take over New Lots. 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, shiznit1987 said:

The MTA will never do such a thing. It's a nice thought, but budget realities means that if the (2)(3) both go to the same places then only one will suffice overnights (and weekends for that matter, hence Lex's point). The MTA will continue to run only the (2) and (4) into Brooklyn overnight as long as there are only two branches to serve. As far was weekends are concerned, the current pattern is already the best and pretty generous to boot seeing as the MTA could try to get away w/ having the (4) go local after Franklin and take over New Lots. 

 

The (3) or (5) running 24/7 is assuming the Utica line is built. The (5) running to Brooklyn 24/7 means the (3) will still at least run to Times Square 42 St late nights, meaning better late night service overall. MTA already had the (4) and (5) local in Brooklyn on weekends for more than a year, so they could just as easily do that again. The (3) would have to run 24/7 for Harlem residents in some form (like to South Ferry on weekends). The Harlem politicians will complain if the (3) is cut on weekends permanently.

Edited by GreatOne2k

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In a world where the Utica Ave line exists, then yes I see the MTA running 3 services into Brooklyn overnight. 

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Posted (edited)

Assuming we have (2)(3) to Flatbush, (4) to NL and (5) to Utica, we would probably see the (5) running the same service pattern at all times (minus the peak express on WPR as it wouldn't exist outside of rush hours). The (3) would probably still run on the weekends given Bronx G.Os and any station not operating 24/7 being a political impossibility (given that the plan to close 145th back in the 60s was a flop it would be even more difficult now). The MTA might want to short-turn weekend (3) service but doing so is only possible at SF (which creates a merge at Chambers and a confusing service pattern) so you might as well run it into Brooklyn.

Edited by R68OnBroadway
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On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lex said:

Considering that it does absolutely nothing to address the fundamentals, yes. Moreover, the focus on peak service leaves no room for picking up on the nuances of off-peak patterns, particularly during evenings and weekends.

 

Maybe this is too much in the way of facts for this discussion, but that full statement only applies to Lexington Avenue. In Brooklyn, the (2) struggles to retain its crowds while the (3) is practically empty without any notable delays. (This isn't so much about Lexington Avenue being faster as it is an issue of people generally caring about destinations.) To make matters worse, the quoted portion alone doesn't apply anywhere near evenly. That issue is almost exclusive to peak periods, and when we start talking about off-peak, we really get to see what the routes are like. The (2) and Lexington Avenue trains carry decently, but the (3) is even more dead than during peak periods, particularly since the only thing it really has going for it is the ability to allow the (4) to have some chance to get back to the Bronx in anything resembling a timely fashion. Strip it of that and the only trains that will be left are the AM peak-early evening runs. Further souring its prospects are the numbers for the only two stations it exclusively serves, which are below President Street, and both stations have buses nearby to other stations on the route (the M7 is especially bad in this regard).

The whole idea is just a giant 🖕 to Harlem residents trying to travel outside of peak periods, and they'll be more negatively affected than Brooklyn residents could possibly be positively affected (and that's to say nothing of forcing all Nostrand Avenue riders to transfer during peak periods, which I deliberately didn't bother bringing up due to myopia).

Which fundamentals? The physical layout of the tracks at Rogers? The service hours of each line? Current off-peak train frequency? 

The current weekend service plan isn’t bad. But that’s because (2)(3)(4) trains run less frequently then, and there’s no (5) train in Brooklyn on the weekends, so it doesn’t cut in front of the (3) at Rogers, like it does on weekdays. But no one’s calling for termination of weekday/rush hour (5) service at Bowling Green. That would be much worse than de-interlining Rogers. We do need more frequently running trains if we’re going to address crowding on the (2)(3)(4)(5) (peak and off-peak), let alone provide for a Utica Avenue subway extension.

And let’s be honest here - the fastest and easiest way we’re going to get a subway down most of Utica is via the A-Division. In order to have a B-Division train run down Utica, they’d have to bring in another B-Division service on Fulton St (be it the (R), the (T) or something else), because extending the (A) or (C) down Utica is a non-starter. So extending a line down Utica starting at Fulton will be centuries off (if we’re lucky!). Because we’re already decades off from having a (T) line (if ever) or a new East River tunnel to connect the (R) or (W) to Fulton at Hoyt-Schermerhorn (which would require years and years of study before they can even break ground on it).

But I also don’t understand how de-interlining Rogers would be a giant 🖕to Harlem residents during off peak hours. Who’s to say they would cut the (3) entirely during off peak hours if Rogers is de-interlined? I honestly don’t think they would. It would result in major overcrowding during evening, overnight and weekend hours on the (1) and (2) lines. And the (1)(2)(3) do get quite crowded on weekends and late nights. That was why the late night (3) shuttle train got brought back in 2007 and to Times Square (not just to 135th Street) And it survived the 2010 budget cuts. Worse comes to worse, you run the (3) local in Manhattan to South Ferry. It would be no different than the (N) running local in Manhattan on weekends. And like the (R), the (1) could certainly use the extra service, especially between 96th Street and Times Square.

On 4/30/2019 at 6:55 PM, Lex said:

We already have those patterns, albeit in the worst manner possible thanks to decisions made a century ago.

Again, if the line had better design, we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Also, I literally decided not to make that the central focus because that's all that anyone pushing that proposal even thinks about. This particular push for a bump in peak service (if we're really lucky, ~33%, not ~50%) completely disregards what will (not may) happen to off-peak service, which will actually lead to a decrease in general service.

How so? If the IRT made decisions a century ago that have messed up the services in Brooklyn today, then what else can be done to correct said decisions?

And if the (5) runs in Brooklyn during evenings and weekends instead of the (3), why would there be a decrease in general service?

21 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Assuming we have (2)(3) to Flatbush, (4) to NL and (5) to Utica, we would probably see the (5) running the same service pattern at all times (minus the peak express on WPR as it wouldn't exist outside of rush hours). The (3) would probably still run on the weekends given Bronx G.Os and any station not operating 24/7 being a political impossibility (given that the plan to close 145th back in the 60s was a flop it would be even more difficult now). The MTA might want to short-turn weekend (3) service but doing so is only possible at SF (which creates a merge at Chambers and a confusing service pattern) so you might as well run it into Brooklyn.

Frankly, I think this is definitely a workable service plan. Maybe the only thing I’d change is running the (4) to - and eventually down - Utica, while running the (5) to NL. During overnights, the (4) would replace the (5) to NL. Then if the Utica extension gets built, an overnight (5) shuttle can run between NL and Atlantic.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/1/2019 at 8:01 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Which fundamentals? The physical layout of the tracks at Rogers? The service hours of each line? Current off-peak train frequency? 

The current weekend service plan isn’t bad. But that’s because (2)(3)(4) trains run less frequently then, and there’s no (5) train in Brooklyn on the weekends, so it doesn’t cut in front of the (3) at Rogers, like it does on weekdays. But no one’s calling for termination of weekday/rush hour (5) service at Bowling Green. That would be much worse than de-interlining Rogers. We do need more frequently running trains if we’re going to address crowding on the (2)(3)(4)(5) (peak and off-peak), let alone provide for a Utica Avenue subway extension.

And let’s be honest here - the fastest and easiest way we’re going to get a subway down most of Utica is via the A-Division. In order to have a B-Division train run down Utica, they’d have to bring in another B-Division service on Fulton St (be it the (R), the (T) or something else), because extending the (A) or (C) down Utica is a non-starter. So extending a line down Utica starting at Fulton will be centuries off (if we’re lucky!). Because we’re already decades off from having a (T) line (if ever) or a new East River tunnel to connect the (R) or (W) to Fulton at Hoyt-Schermerhorn (which would require years and years of study before they can even break ground on it).

But I also don’t understand how de-interlining Rogers would be a giant 🖕to Harlem residents during off peak hours. Who’s to say they would cut the (3) entirely during off peak hours if Rogers is de-interlined? I honestly don’t think they would. It would result in major overcrowding during evening, overnight and weekend hours on the (1) and (2) lines. And the (1)(2)(3) do get quite crowded on weekends and late nights. That was why the late night (3) shuttle train got brought back in 2007 and to Times Square (not just to 135th Street) And it survived the 2010 budget cuts. Worse comes to worse, you run the (3) local in Manhattan to South Ferry. It would be no different than the (N) running local in Manhattan on weekends. And like the (R), the (1) could certainly use the extra service, especially between 96th Street and Times Square.

How so? If the IRT made decisions a century ago that have messed up the services in Brooklyn today, then what else can be done to correct said decisions?

And if the (5) runs in Brooklyn during evenings and weekends instead of the (3), why would there be a decrease in general service?

Frankly, I think this is definitely a workable service plan. Maybe the only thing I’d change is running the (4) to - and eventually down - Utica, while running the (5) to NL. During overnights, the (4) would replace the (5) to NL. Then if the Utica extension gets built, an overnight (5) shuttle can run between NL and Atlantic.

Or run the (5) 24/7 full length, no sense to have two (5) shuttle services overnight, might as well combine them with a through service.

Edited by GreatOne2k

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Well yes, you can do that too, but knowing the MTA’s propensity to run as little service overnight as possible, I suggested the two disconnected (5) shuttles, though they haven’t run two disconnected sections of a line in regular overnight service since the (B) in the 70s and early 80s which ran two shuttles between 57th St and Rockefeller Center and between 36th St and Stillwell Ave. 

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Forgive my cynicism, but I don’t really see this study doing much in terms of actually bringing subway service down Utica Ave. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if it does lead to it, but given our track record of not building necessary subway lines, I’m not holding my breath that this will lead to anything beyond B46 SBS improvements.

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On 5/10/2019 at 5:57 AM, Lance said:

Forgive my cynicism, but I don’t really see this study doing much in terms of actually bringing subway service down Utica Ave. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if it does lead to it, but given our track record of not building necessary subway lines, I’m not holding my breath that this will lead to anything beyond B46 SBS improvements.

The optimistic way of looking at it is that De Blasio and Cuomo will probably be out by the time the study wraps up and maybe we can have someone serious walk the walk.

BdB is term limited and we've never had a four-term governor, they usually go insane from the stress first.

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13 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The optimistic way of looking at it is that De Blasio and Cuomo will probably be out by the time the study wraps up and maybe we can have someone serious walk the walk.

BdB is term limited and we've never had a four-term governor, they usually go insane from the stress first.

I have the same hopes too given that Byford is around, but I hope he can hold out until Cuomo is out the door...

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On 5/10/2019 at 8:57 AM, Lance said:

Forgive my cynicism, but I don’t really see this study doing much in terms of actually bringing subway service down Utica Ave. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if it does lead to it, but given our track record of not building necessary subway lines, I’m not holding my breath that this will lead to anything beyond B46 SBS improvements.

As someone who lives in the area, I believe that a Utica Avenue subway is needed to speed commutes to Downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan, and it should be prioritized. My current commute to City Tech in Downtown takes about 55 minutes. I feel that with an extension of the (3) train down Utica to Kings Plaza, I can see travel time be reduced by 15-20 minutes. Commutes to Manhattan would also be shortened as well. Hopefully they can get an actual subway to be built here is Flatlands.

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Let me add my two cents to the discussion.  This past January marked 50 years that my friend and I entered the Utica Avenue Second System station as provisional RR Porters.  Our tour guide that day was a Station Supervisor who,  as a longtime Brooklynite, was depressed because that shell had lain unfinished for so long. He's probably passed on by now but my friend and I have taken his place. We passed by a few months ago and after the station rehab  we had to figure out how to even gain entry to the shell. Whether it's an IRT or an IND line being proposed our guess is it won't happen in the next 30 years or so. I'm not disputing the need for a line but whether the City of New York or the MTA would ever prioritize or be able to fund such a project. Look at the SAS,the Archer Avenue debacle, or the vanished Third Avenue El and I'd say that anyone optimistic about this project happening is a good candidate for a drug test. Just my opinion. Carry on. 

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3 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Let me add my two cents to the discussion.  This past January marked 50 years that my friend and I entered the Utica Avenue Second System station as provisional RR Porters.  Our tour guide that day was a Station Supervisor who,  as a longtime Brooklynite, was depressed because that shell had lain unfinished for so long. He's probably passed on by now but my friend and I have taken his place. We passed by a few months ago and after the station rehab  we had to figure out how to even gain entry to the shell. Whether it's an IRT or an IND line being proposed our guess is it won't happen in the next 30 years or so. I'm not disputing the need for a line but whether the City of New York or the MTA would ever prioritize or be able to fund such a project. Look at the SAS,the Archer Avenue debacle, or the vanished Third Avenue El and I'd say that anyone optimistic about this project happening is a good candidate for a drug test. Just my opinion. Carry on. 

Yup. Under current construction practices and the way the budget shakes out, expect to see something like this start construction in like 2030 at the earliest.

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