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Deucey

MTA: You mean we built tunnels already??

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https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-second-avenue-subway-tunnel-reuse-savings-20190416-ewnrkgj7xjcvlpxx6iua45sgka-story.html

A blast from the past may save the MTA $500 million on the next phase of the Second Ave. subway.

A tunnel built in the 1970s by urban planners who tried and failed to construct a Second Ave. line will now be re-purposed by the MTA for the exact same project some 40 years later.

The tunnel stretches from 110th St. to 120th St. in East Harlem — and Janno Lieber, head of MTA construction, said he and his colleagues recently discovered they could build a planned 116th St. station in the underground space, which was not intended to house a stop when it was first dug up decades ago.

“I went down and looked at it (the tunnel) a couple of times,” said Lieber. “We’ve started to look at options to do less excavation,” which is the most expensive part of building a new subway line.

Re-purposing the tunnel will save the MTA an estimated $500 million on the project, which will bring new stations to 106th, 116th and 125th Sts.

Those savings, coupled with another idea to reduce excavation at the 125th St. station, could knock $1 billion off the estimated $6 billion project.

“Generally my entire approach is how do we get more out of our existing infrastructure,” said Lieber. “Let’s look into ways to squeeze more out of what we’ve got.”

Lieber has also overseen other Metropolitan Transportation Authority “squeezes” like the modified L train reconstruction plan and the Penn Station Access project, which will bring four new Metro-North stops to the Bronx by sending trains over the Amtrak-owned Hell Gate Bridge near Randall’s Island.

Still, the fate of the Second Avenue Subway’s next three stations hinges on billions of dollars in federal funding — the MTA is seeking lawmakers in Washington D.C. to sign off on one-third of the project’s costs.

“The future of this project lays in Washington,” said Tim Gianfrancesco, who’s overseeing the work for the MTA. “We’re carrying a goal of a federal funding agreement as early as 2020.”

The MTA has completed its environmental assessment for the project and has submitted documents to the Federal Transit Administration for review.

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As long as those tunnels can still take a beating and allow for easy station accessibility, we should be good.

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9 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Wait I thought the already completed section of the 2 av subway was already Incorporated into phase 2....

I don’t recall exactly, but I do remember reading something about drilling tunnels uptown for phase 2 back when they were saying the 2030s-40s would be when SAS would go to Harlem.

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30 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I do remember reading something about drilling tunnels uptown for phase 2

I mean, they still will have to bore tunnels from 105th to 110th, and 120th to 125th/Lex.

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Credit where it's due, I recall Wallyhorse proposing this several years ago.

Anyway, obviously it's cheaper to repurpose the existing construction rather than demolishing the tunnel walls and starting all over. If they can make it work within the space, that's the way to go.

I wonder what changes are being planned for 125th Street, other than the reduction to 2 tracks.

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2 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Wait I thought the already completed section of the 2 av subway was already Incorporated into phase 2....

There are two segments, with a gap where a station at 106 St would be.

The part below 106 St are the current tail tracks of SAS Phase I. This is talking about the part above 106 St.

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Posted (edited)

The title of the story is misleading. What I think it's saying, is what I've always wished for, and that was fining a way to squeeze the added station in without having to redo the whole tunnel over. Perhaps they ditched the wide island platform configuration used at the other new stations, in favor of a side platform setup. Or, I think that section had originally called for a spur track in the middle,, and they figured out how to use that space.

Edited by Eric B
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35 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Aren't the existing tunnels 3 tracks? 

I believe a section of one of the tunnels has a middle trackway that was intended to be used for maintenance under the 1970s SAS project.

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7 hours ago, Eric B said:

The title of the story is misleading. What I think it's saying, is what I've always wished for, and that was fining a way to squeeze the added station in without having to redo the whole tunnel over. Perhaps they ditched the wide island platform configuration used at the other new stations, in favor of a side platform setup. Or, I think that section had originally called for a spur track in the middle,, and they figured out how to use that space.

They said they will have an island platform using the trackway over the spur track. Adding side platforms would have required getting easements and propping up buildings on both sides of Second Avenue.

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1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

They said they will have an island platform using the trackway over the spur track. Adding side platforms would have required getting easements and propping up buildings on both sides of Second Avenue.

Thats what I thought was originally happening anyways.

Maybe with this "revised plan" they are talking about less destruction and/or easing down with overbuilding the station. And perhaps making the island platform a bit narrower but enough space to fit a few hundred people on the platform.

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1 hour ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Thats what I thought was originally happening anyways.

Maybe with this "revised plan" they are talking about less destruction and/or easing down with overbuilding the station. And perhaps making the island platform a bit narrower but enough space to fit a few hundred people on the platform.

They were originally planning to demolish the current tunnel box, widen it, and rebuild it with an island. They’re now keeping the tunnel box, adding an island over the center trackway, and excavating only to create entrances and back-of-house facilities. 

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2 hours ago, RR503 said:

They were originally planning to demolish the current tunnel box, widen it, and rebuild it with an island. They’re now keeping the tunnel box, adding an island over the center trackway, and excavating only to create entrances and back-of-house facilities. 

That's the worst idea I have heard. Why not just keep the third track and build side platforms?

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14 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

That's the worst idea I have heard. Why not just keep the third track and build side platforms?

 

5 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

They said they will have an island platform using the trackway over the spur track. Adding side platforms would have required getting easements and propping up buildings on both sides of Second Avenue.

 

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Are they still doing bellmouths to the Bronx? Dropping the third track isn’t a problem given that extensions should be across 125th up 3rd; but removing the bellmouths seems like a mistake given the potential of a line up 3rd  ((N)) and another on 125th  ( (Q) ).

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35 minutes ago, Lex said:

 

 

At least have the third track operational in some parts so 96th St can still be used to layup some rush hour trains.

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6 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

They said they will have an island platform using the trackway over the spur track. Adding side platforms would have required getting easements and propping up buildings on both sides of Second Avenue.

So I guess the compromise is a narrower platform, which is why I believe the idea of using the third track space was rejected before; or at least we hypothesized that it would be ruled out for that reason.

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1 hour ago, Eric B said:

So I guess the compromise is a narrower platform, which is why I believe the idea of using the third track space was rejected before; or at least we hypothesized that it would be ruled out for that reason.

They also didn't want to have columns on the platform, which will be the case now. 

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I'm still not sure what I'm seeing in that diagram. It looks like under the "revised" design, they're widening the tunnel structure, where in the "previous" one they aren't. (And what's "EPE"?)

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24 minutes ago, Eric B said:

I'm still not sure what I'm seeing in that diagram. It looks like under the "revised" design, they're widening the tunnel structure, where in the "previous" one they aren't. (And what's "EPE"?)

They are just modifying some sections for entrances and station facilities.

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On 4/16/2019 at 11:39 PM, Deucey said:

the MTA is seeking lawmakers in Washington D.C. to sign off on one-third of the project’s costs.

I can't help but think that the MTA only asks for a transfusion of money from the feds because it fully expects the vampires to [metaphorically] drain a third of its bodily fluids.

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20 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

At least have the third track operational in some parts so 96th St can still be used to layup some rush hour trains.

What would be the point? You're not saving anything on capacity because there are still only two tracks from 72 to 96.

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2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

What would be the point? You're not saving anything on capacity because there are still only two tracks from 72 to 96.

It would help clear out a conga line of trains when things like this happen on a daily basis. I heard the 125 Street terminal was being reduced to 2 tracks? :rolleyes: What would replace that?

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