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Lil 57

MTA to Redesign Queens Bus Network, Asks for Public Input

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Seeing how this convo is going though, I don't know if they will try to come up with actual creativity. Anyway, you can say goodbye to your Q42s and Q67s.

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56 minutes ago, DetSMART45 said:

OK, name some of those such "success stories" and I'll actually take that retort as serious.

Some things never change around here .............

Successful bus network redesigns/service modifications? Houston, Dublin, Auckland, Seattle, Columbus, Jacksonville, to name a few. Successful examples of resource consolidation? All of the above; those efforts all were mapped along this idea that focusing on frequent service on a smaller set of corridors is in the end better than looking for coverage. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Should Brooklyn and Queens be done simultaneously and treated as one since they're connected?

This is part of the reason the N6 is the busiest route in Nassau County, Frequent Service, and lots of trip generators, lot of intra-county trips. 

I mean it was all obvious to actual passengers. Bus lanes and Bus Priority, riders have been saying this for years.  

MTA: "We're going to introduce 'Bus Rapid transit' to NYC, we're going to allow pre-payment and intermittent bus lanes, this will really shorten your trips!"

Riders: "But what about bus lane blockages, and the bus getting stopped every block or 2 because of traffic signals?"

MTA: *Blank stare*

 

From the presentation to the Queens board:

Is it a coincidence that Vision Zero started in 2014?

Borough-centric only works up to a certain degree. In the case of Queens, thinking only borough wise might be a bit of an issue. Although there are multiple interborough ridership bases on the Queens local buses, I believe that this should have been done in three parts:

1. Queens and Northern Brooklyn Local

2. Queens and Brooklyn Express 

3. Southern Brooklyn Local

There are enough routes in the Queens Express Bus Network to warrant a separate overhaul. I feel like doing local and express, they'll try to ram whatever they feel is necessary and just go with it, instead of actually taking the time to come up with a decent network for both local and express routes. With respect to the express bus network, I've shared (and had a subsequent discussion about) my plan for revamping the express buses. I would change several things there, thinking about it now more, but it more or less are still my sentiments.

1 hour ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

A route from Forest Park to Flushing would be nice, and I believe @LaGuardia Link N Tra proposed something similar (from the Q23 terminal). Even if it doesn't save that much time (you never know), it still is better than taking 2-3 buses other long-winded routes you may think of.

Doesn't have to be from Forest Park, but I agree with something running from the Forest Hills area to Flushing. I believe it can catch on. IDK about routing though. Perhaps to eliminate buses turning around in Flushing, it can replace the Q34 to the north.

1 hour ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Seeing how this convo is going though, I don't know if they will try to come up with actual creativity. Anyway, you can say goodbye to your Q42s and Q67s.

They can still address their comments regarding route changes. Then again, don't know if everything is going to be considered considering the grand scheme of things. This is on a much bigger scale than just Staten Island Express Bus. Not only the local, but the express bus routes also need to be looked into, because there is a lot which can be improved there too. The former Staten Island express bus routes got nothing on the inefficiencies/missed ridership opportunities plaguing the Queens express bus system.

Bronx only really needs to pay attention more to the local bus routes, and we'll see what happens with Manhattan. Either way, 

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

How about fix the Q19, and return the Q33 to Lagurdia?

Why? Virtually everyone who used the Q33 to the airport got on at 74th Street.

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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My thoughts:

This whole Queens redesign is honestly a huge scam. Look what happened to Staten Island express service when the network first got redesigned in August last year... Missing trips, huge overcrowding, large cuts in service, etc.

If Staten Island express service really got destroyed by a "redesign," don't expect Queens to be any better...

 

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14 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

My thoughts:

This whole Queens redesign is honestly a huge scam. Look what happened to Staten Island express service when the network first got redesigned in August last year... Missing trips, huge overcrowding, large cuts in service, etc.

If Staten Island express service really got destroyed by a "redesign," don't expect Queens to be any better...

It’s important to recognize that the SI redesign was substantially completed pre-Byford. Byford’s vision for the bus network (and general attention to detail) is quite different from his predecessors, and it seems he has a different team working on the redesigns. That certainly shouldn’t be seen as a guarantee that mistakes won’t be made, but I also think we shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss. 

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19 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

My thoughts:

This whole Queens redesign is honestly a huge scam. Look what happened to Staten Island express service when the network first got redesigned in August last year... Missing trips, huge overcrowding, large cuts in service, etc.

If Staten Island express service really got destroyed by a "redesign," don't expect Queens to be any better...

 

Exactly, this is a glorified way of saying we are cutting service. Hopefully the unions (local 100) fight this bullshit.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

My thoughts:

This whole Queens redesign is honestly a huge scam. Look what happened to Staten Island express service when the network first got redesigned in August last year... Missing trips, huge overcrowding, large cuts in service, etc.

If Staten Island express service really got destroyed by a "redesign," don't expect Queens to be any better...

 

Many people are still affected badly by it might I add...

But yeah I agree, the (MTA) will feed it down our throats while they can bluntly save cash in the process, I'm sure it'll get some positive or noteworthy press and some bus-fanners for a while too. The sad thing with this is, just like in Staten Island. There is potential in fixing and maintaining the network here if we actually put aside a good idea on the table, since I will say the current setup isn't even close to perfect at all. 

 

Edited by NoHacksJustKhaks

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10 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

How about fix the Q19, and return the Q33 to Lagurdia?

I agree with fixing the Q19, but the sending the Q33 to LaGuardia is unnecessary especially since we have the Q70 doing the same job. 

10 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said:

Seeing how this convo is going though, I don't know if they will try to come up with actual creativity. Anyway, you can say goodbye to your Q42s and Q67s.

I wouldn’t eliminate the Q42 or Q67. Both may not be as popular as other routes but its important to note that these buses still serve people regardless of ridership numbers. The Q42, I would simplify and extend it to Sutphin Boulevard to connect with the LIRR. 

The Q67 I don’t know. For now, I have it extended it with the Q38 to Woodhull Hospital and up via the Q102/Q19 Routes to 2nd Street. 

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10 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Should Brooklyn and Queens be done simultaneously and treated as one since they're connected?

I'd say no....

On the surface, this, to me, sounds like a promotion of more inter-borough routes b/w the 2 counties than would be necessary....

10 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I mean it was all obvious to actual passengers. Bus lanes and Bus Priority, riders have been saying this for years.  

MTA: "We're going to introduce 'Bus Rapid transit' to NYC, we're going to allow pre-payment and intermittent bus lanes, this will really shorten your trips!"

Riders: "But what about bus lane blockages, and the bus getting stopped every block or 2 because of traffic signals?"

MTA: *Blank stare*

I'm willing to bet any *blank stares* came from everyone else at the roundtable, after the first suit in the room brought up "Bus Rapid Transit" :lol:

8 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Borough-centric only works up to a certain degree. In the case of Queens, thinking only borough wise might be a bit of an issue. Although there are multiple interborough ridership bases on the Queens local buses, I believe that this should have been done in three parts:

1. Queens and Northern Brooklyn Local

2. Queens and Brooklyn Express 

3. Southern Brooklyn Local

There are enough routes in the Queens Express Bus Network to warrant a separate overhaul. I feel like doing local and express, they'll try to ram whatever they feel is necessary and just go with it, instead of actually taking the time to come up with a decent network for both local and express routes......

If I were designing a network of local bus routes in this city, I wouldn't lump Queens in with Northern Brooklyn, nor would I treat all of Brooklyn & Queens as one canvas....

Brooklyn, I would design by itself.... Queens however, I would (as in mentally, upon designing) break up into regions - especially considering major destinations & subway connections..... There would be overlap b/w regions within Queens, but I would not go crazy with a bunch of routes running b/w Brooklyn & Queens.... Basically, there wouldn't be any hard borders (like with MTA routes, generally speaking, at the Nassau & Westchester county lines) with anything & the number of inter-county routes b/w Brooklyn & Queens would be drawn up, with moderation....

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11 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Should Brooklyn and Queens be done simultaneously and treated as one since they're connected?

This is part of the reason the N6 is the busiest route in Nassau County, Frequent Service, and lots of trip generators, lot of intra-county trips. 

I mean it was all obvious to actual passengers. Bus lanes and Bus Priority, riders have been saying this for years.  

MTA: "We're going to introduce 'Bus Rapid transit' to NYC, we're going to allow pre-payment and intermittent bus lanes, this will really shorten your trips!"

Riders: "But what about bus lane blockages, and the bus getting stopped every block or 2 because of traffic signals?"

MTA: *Blank stare*

 

From the presentation to the Queens board:

Is it a coincidence that Vision Zero started in 2014?

I do remember wondering back then if Vision Zero would negatively impact bus service and many said “not really.”

I wonder what they have to say now...

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It's all fine and good to focus on the heaviest use corridors to be more efficient, etc, but then contingencies need to be put in place for everyone that lives outside of those corridors, especially if congestion pricing is going to go into effect, which is theoretically supposed to entice people to give up their cars. Even now, for example, lots of people drive to Union Turnpike, park their cars on the street all day, and take the buses to work before coming home at night. If we really want to become less car-centric as a city overall, these people need some way to get to the mass transportation corridors. I don't know what the answer to this issue should be, but if there isn't a good solution, to some degree we end up shuffling around the deck chairs on the Titanic. 

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9 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

My thoughts:

This whole Queens redesign is honestly a huge scam. Look what happened to Staten Island express service when the network first got redesigned in August last year... Missing trips, huge overcrowding, large cuts in service, etc.

If Staten Island express service really got destroyed by a "redesign," don't expect Queens to be any better...

Even if we didn't have the SI express redesign as a basis for comparison, our sentiments are one in the same.... I want to have faith in Byford, but this is bigger than just one man...

We are dealing with an agglomerate of ignorant, obtuse, number-crunching f***ing cheapskates that could give a shit about its own riding public, so on that front alone, I'm not expecting anything remotely close to what would benefit current riders & further go on to spurring ridership (from those that have either given up on the MTA prior, never bothered with mass transit to begin with [pro-car folks], or migrated into this city with the mindset of biking, ride-sharing, or hoofing it out to wherever they need to go)....

9 hours ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

Many people are still affected badly by it might I add...

But yeah I agree, the (MTA) will feed it down our throats while they can bluntly save cash in the process, I'm sure it'll get some positive or noteworthy press and some bus-fanners for a while too. The sad thing with this is, just like in Staten Island. There is potential in fixing and maintaining the network here if we actually put aside a good idea on the table, since I will say the current setup isn't even close to perfect at all. 

In short, the current setup is antiquated... That much they do have right.

34 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

I agree with fixing the Q19, but the sending the Q33 to LaGuardia is unnecessary especially since we have the Q70 doing the same job. 

I wouldn’t eliminate the Q42 or Q67. Both may not be as popular as other routes but its important to note that these buses still serve people regardless of ridership numbers. The Q42, I would simplify and extend it to Sutphin Boulevard to connect with the LIRR. 

The Q67 I don’t know. For now, I have it extended it with the Q38 to Woodhull Hospital and up via the Q102/Q19 Routes to 2nd Street. 

Hate to rain in on the parade here, but this network redesign bit entails creating a network from scratch....

Might as well expect the sheer number of routes in Queens to see a significant decrease.

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4 hours ago, paulrivera said:

I do remember wondering back then if Vision Zero would negatively impact bus service and many said “not really.”

I wonder what they have to say now...

They believe " a few miles per hour" makes no difference in travel times, but they fail to realize how speed also affects how many traffic signals you can get through, etc.

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On 4/18/2019 at 5:00 AM, B35 via Church said:

I'd say no....

On the surface, this, to me, sounds like a promotion of more inter-borough routes b/w the 2 counties than would be necessary....

I'm willing to bet any *blank stares* came from everyone else at the roundtable, after the first suit in the room brought up "Bus Rapid Transit" :lol:

If I were designing a network of local bus routes in this city, I wouldn't lump Queens in with Northern Brooklyn, nor would I treat all of Brooklyn & Queens as one canvas....

Brooklyn, I would design by itself.... Queens however, I would (as in mentally, upon designing) break up into regions - especially considering major destinations & subway connections..... There would be overlap b/w regions within Queens, but I would not go crazy with a bunch of routes running b/w Brooklyn & Queens.... Basically, there wouldn't be any hard borders (like with MTA routes, generally speaking, at the Nassau & Westchester county lines) with anything & the number of inter-county routes b/w Brooklyn & Queens would be drawn up, with moderation....

The logical networks to me are
 

  • Queens north of Queens Blvd, west of Van Wyck
  • Queens east of Van Wyck, north of Jamaica
  • Queens east of Van Wyck, south of Jamaica
  • Brooklyn/Queens between Queens Blvd and the Jamaica Line
  • Rest of Brooklyn

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On 4/18/2019 at 9:51 AM, N6 Limited said:

They believe " a few miles per hour" makes no difference in travel times, but they fail to realize how speed also affects how many traffic signals you can get through, etc.

What signals are you getting through if the bus stops every two blocks?

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3 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

What signals are you getting through if the bus stops every two blocks?

Not every stop has someone waiting or getting off.

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1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The logical networks to me are
 

  • Queens north of Queens Blvd, west of Van Wyck
  • Queens east of Van Wyck, north of Jamaica
  • Queens east of Van Wyck, south of Jamaica
  • Brooklyn/Queens between Queens Blvd and the Jamaica Line
  • Rest of Brooklyn

I’m a little confused here. Are you saying that there should be 5 bus networks in Queens or the Queens Network being split into 4-5 sections, those being:

Northeast Queens 

SouthEast Queens 

Central/Western Queens 

Brooklyn/Queens Border

Brooklyn. (Which is it’s own thing.)

On 4/18/2019 at 8:20 AM, B35 via Church said:

Hate to rain in on the parade here, but this network redesign bit entails creating a network from scratch....

Might as well expect the sheer number of routes in Queens to see a significant decrease.

The fact that the Network will be redone from scratch I understand, but does that mean my approach was wrong or something? 

Personally, I would advocate for High Frequencies, but not at the expense of low frequency or Neighborhood bus routes. Once again, I personally don’t think that the Q42 or Q67 should be eliminated, but the (MTA) should not improve the Network at the Expense of Riders from Low Ridership Routes, or something along those lines. 

Another opinion that I want to throw out is that I don’t feel like the Queens Network Redesign will be as Successful without Short And Longn Terms Rail Infrastructure Upgrades in Queens such as TOD along various Locations on the LIRR, or a Subway Extension to a Particular location. I also don’t want to leave out the fact that in order for this redesign to be successful, the (MTA) and [DOT] should do many road infrastructure Upgrades. Examples would include:

 • Implementing a Real BRT Corridor. Hillside Avenue, Merrick Blvd, And Northern Blvd are Great Opportunities for this 

• Transit Signal Priority - (And no, not VisionZero) 

• “Bus Zones” wherever bus lanes can not be implemented, this would be like a parking zone, but Bus Zones would be directly on the bus stop.

• Upgraded Bus Shelters for improved Passenger Comfort. 

•Elimintation I’d Dollar Vans. 

And of Course we can not forget that Better Bus Dispatching should be implemented along with the fact that NYPD should stop parking in Bus Lanes and start enforcing Them so that buses can get around faster. Do I think any of this will happen? No, but it should be considered if this Redesign has any chance of being successful. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

The fact that the Network will be redone from scratch I understand, but does that mean my approach was wrong or something?

Reason for that last reply was two-fold:

1] Looked like you were getting carried away & were trying to turn this into an idea thread.....

2] You're using current routes as reference points for ideas (I counted 8 in that previous post)... Don't know if you do or don't, but I get the sense that you believe that routes'll be preserved with this redesign..... This agency's looking to cut costs.... When the dust settles, I don't believe a single one out of the 107 that we do have in Queens will be left standing.... Not one.... Not even the SBS routes.

Longer routes with less stops will be the name of the game IMO & the scope of the network will end up being majorically that of a grid....

All these short route haters will likely get their wish.

Edited by B35 via Church

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

I’m a little confused here. Are you saying that there should be 5 bus networks in Queens or the Queens Network being split into 4-5 sections, those being:

Northeast Queens 

SouthEast Queens 

Central/Western Queens 

Brooklyn/Queens Border

Brooklyn. (Which is it’s own thing.)

This is, de facto, how the bus routes operate today. With some limited exceptions like the Q58, Q64 and Q88, these would be logical separations of the bus network, clustered around a major geographic dividing feature like a subway line (Queens Blvd, Hillside Av), a highway or park (Corona Park/the Van Wyck).

The landmass of Queens and Brooklyn is so large that you should not bother trying to create long-ass routes serving the entire length of the borough(s).

Edited by bobtehpanda

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Reason for that last reply was two-fold:

1] Looked like you were getting carried away & were trying to turn this into an idea thread.....

2] You're using current routes as reference points for ideas (I counted 8 in that previous post)... Don't know if you do or don't, but I get the sense that you believe that routes'll be preserved with this redesign..... This agency's looking to cut costs.... When the dust settles, I don't believe a single one out of the 107 that we do have in Queens will be left standing.... Not one.... Not even the SBS routes.

Longer routes with less stops will be the name of the game IMO & the scope of the network will end up being majorically that of a grid....

All these short route haters will likely get their wish.

As a response to the 2 reasons that you outlined in addition to the other notions that you made in your post :

1) My intentions were not to turn this into an idea thread, but I did want to get some ideas out since they related to this thread. 

2) While I have been using current routes as reference points for ideas, I don't believe that every route would be heavily altered as a result of this redesign, thus that should explain the preservation of a few routes. 

3) While I believe that all routes should be more direct as to which destinations they serve, I highly doubt that'll be easy, especially when you consider the fact that certain Streets are Curved while other portions  of Queens are somewhat "Sprawled" out. 

4) I don't understand what the beef is with Short Routes, but as long as people get from Point A to Point B without an Issue, then I could care less about the Length of a bus route (at least up to a certain degree)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

As a response to the 2 reasons that you outlined in addition to the other notions that you made in your post :

1) My intentions were not to turn this into an idea thread, but I did want to get some ideas out since they related to this thread. 

2) While I have been using current routes as reference points for ideas, I don't believe that every route would be heavily altered as a result of this redesign, thus that should explain the preservation of a few routes. 

3) While I believe that all routes should be more direct as to which destinations they serve, I highly doubt that'll be easy, especially when you consider the fact that certain Streets are Curved while other portions  of Queens are somewhat "Sprawled" out. 

4) I don't understand what the beef is with Short Routes, but as long as people get from Point A to Point B without an Issue, then I could care less about the Length of a bus route (at least up to a certain degree)

1] That could be construed as contradictory though.... Anyway, and more importantly, the MTA should be the ones looking for ideas!

2] Then you don't believe the network will be redone from scratch.... Either that, or you're giving the MTA a hell of a lot more credit than I'm giving them.....
I don't see them keeping a few routes, then working around those routes to redraw (what would then be) the rest of the network.....

3] While inclusive, a direct bus route doesn't necessarily have to travel along a 180° plane.... So according to you, a route like the Q29 isn't direct?

4] It's usually centered around lack of usage, because it doesn't cover enough territory....

Edited by B35 via Church

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2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

1] That could be construed as contradictory though.... Anyway, and more importantly, the MTA should be the ones looking for ideas!

2] Then you don't believe the network will be redone from scratch.... Either that, or you're giving the MTA a hell of a lot more credit than I'm giving them.....
I don't see them keeping a few routes, then working around those routes to redraw (what would then be) the rest of the network.....

3] While inclusive, a direct bus route doesn't necessarily have to travel along a 180° plane.... So according to you, a route like the Q29 isn't direct?

4] It's usually centered around lack of usage, because it doesn't cover enough territory....

1) ok

2) The (MTA) are the ones who officially initiated the Queens Bus Redesign Project. So they do Deserve Credit. I wouldn’t say I’m giving them too much credit though. And I wouldn’t be surprised if a route ended up being the Same (in terms of its route). Take the Q70 for example. 

3) Ok. The Q29 is a route is a direct route in my opinion, feeding onto both QBL and The (7) line. Though I don’t see what kind of route Change it would need. 

4) ok. Thanks 

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16 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

The (MTA) are the ones who officially initiated the Queens Bus Redesign Project. So they do Deserve Credit. I wouldn’t say I’m giving them too much credit though. And I wouldn’t be surprised if a route ended up being the Same (in terms of its route). Take the Q70 for example.

The MTA being initiators, by itself, means absolutely, positively nothing to me..... They're also the ones that were steadfast in initiating those drastic cuts in 2010 also.... I'm not putting anything past this agency...

As far as routes that you think would remain or not (which can be a whole separate discussion by itself), you are giving them more credit that I am... That's all I was saying with that....

20 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

While I believe that all routes should be more direct as to which destinations they serve, I highly doubt that'll be easy, especially when you consider the fact that certain Streets are Curved while other portions  of Queens are somewhat "Sprawled" out.

16 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

 The Q29 is a route is a direct route in my opinion, feeding onto both QBL and The (7) line. Though I don’t see what kind of route Change it would need.

I'm not intimating any route change of any sort, as I don't want to turn this into an idea thread... Again, the general point there was, a route doesn't have to travel on a perfectly straight line for it to be direct.... The Q29 (as you admit to here) is an example of that....

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