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Via Garibaldi 8

Bronx Redesign Draft Released

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So I am looking at the plan for now. One thing that struck me in particular is the proposed routing of the Bx24. The proposed Bx24, instead of solely looping through Country Club, would go up Kennelworth Place, Ampere Avenue, then down Stadium Avenue before continuing via the current Bx8 routing to Locust Point. The Bx8 would be truncated to Layton Avenue and Dean Avenue. Isn’t that proposed Bx24 routing the exact same one that was done with the Bx8 in 2010 (when they eliminated the Bx14 bus), but was done away with in 2011 due to complaint about buses on Stadium Avenue?

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2 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

So I am looking at the plan for now. One thing that struck me in particular is the proposed routing of the Bx24. The proposed Bx24, instead of solely looping through Country Club, would go up Kennelworth Place, Ampere Avenue, then down Stadium Avenue before continuing via the current Bx8 routing to Locust Point. The Bx8 would be truncated to Layton Avenue and Dean Avenue. Isn’t that proposed Bx24 routing the exact same one that was done with the Bx8 in 2010 (when they eliminated the Bx14 bus), but was done away with in 2011 due to complaint about buses on Stadium Avenue?

The complaints was mainly because at the time, the Bx8 used Orion VII CNGs, which were pretty loud.

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1 minute ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The complaints was mainly because at the time, the Bx8 used Orion VII CNGs, which were pretty loud.

So now they think that they can squeeze in new environmentally-friendly NovaBus LFS buses (and for some short period, any remaining Orion VII NGs not displaced by the 50 new LFS buses) and people on Stadium Avenue won’t complain?

Brilliant!!!!

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I smell complaints on a few of these proposals.. Plus a discontinuation of the Bx38. If anything retain all Co-op City bus service. Whether it's local or express.

However, this new Co-Op City // Downtown Manhattan Express is a doozy. A grand tour of Queens before you reach Manhattan.. I'd scream HELL on this. If these planners were smart. I'd go 278 to Triboro. Triboro to 2nd Avenue (Express to 86th). Right on 86 to West End Avenue. Left on West End Avenue to Downtown with corresponding Hudson Yards- Javits Convention Center @ 34th and 12th with subway connection to (7) train to East side than stop to Chambers. Right on Chambers to Battery Park City and Water Street. 

Right now I'm skimming thru the rest of the proposals. The other bad one I see is the Bx40/42. I don't know who complains first.. River Park Towers Patrons or Throggs Neck Patrons. Basically what the TA is telling you that we will streamline service. But also beware that bus cuts and a route dis-continuation is coming!

More commentary soon!  PS: I'm scared for Brooklyn re-design and I'm prepared for a s**t show.

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1 minute ago, Future ENY OP said:

The other bad one I see is the Bx40/42. I don't know who complains first.. River Park Towers Patrons or Throggs Neck Patrons. Basically what the TA is telling you that we will streamline service. But also beware that bus cuts and a route dis-continuation is coming!

I don't think there will be much complaints with River Park riders. I can see some issues rise in Throgs Neck and Locust Point. 

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I smell complaints on a few of these proposals.. Plus a discontinuation of the Bx38. If anything retain all Co-op City bus service. Whether it's local or express.

However, this new Co-Op City // Downtown Manhattan Express is a doozy. A grand tour of Queens before you reach Manhattan.. I'd scream HELL on this. If these planners were smart. I'd go 278 to Triboro. Triboro to 2nd Avenue (Express to 86th). Right on 86 to West End Avenue. Left on West End Avenue to Downtown with corresponding Hudson Yards- Javits Convention Center @ 34th and 12th with subway connection to (7) train to East side than stop to Chambers. Right on Chambers to Battery Park City and Water Street. 

Right now I'm skimming thru the rest of the proposals. The other bad one I see is the Bx40/42. I don't know who complains first.. River Park Towers Patrons or Throggs Neck Patrons. Basically what the TA is telling you that we will streamline service. But also beware that bus cuts and a route dis-continuation is coming!

More commentary soon!  PS: I'm scared for Brooklyn re-design and I'm prepared for a s**t show.

The AM route wouldn't be so bad, because it'll be on the HOV lane. It's the PM route that would suffer, since the LIE past Maspeth is terrible (with no HOV Lane). Some take the service road because there's just too much traffic on the main road.

Also, for the Bx8/Bx24 change, I could see this pushing more people onto the BxM9, especially If the rush hour headways remain the way they currently are. I don't see Throggs Neck residents wanting to go all the way to Pelham Bay Park to take the (6) just to head south again. Perhaps maybe during rush hours, they could have the Bx8 run to Edgewater Park, and then during off-peak hours, keep it as they propose. For off-peak service, I don't mind that service pattern, since the Bx24 would still serve Westchester Square plus more areas that the Bx8 doesn't serve (which allows for even greater connections specifically at Pelham Bay Park). Peak service though would need some fixing up. 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven

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Posted (edited)

alright... I'll bite. i feel compelled to comment on this network, due to potential changes to runs/the KB run board.

bx6SBS - i can't truly say it's necessarily a good or bad idea sending it to Turnbull... definitely would be a one seat ride across town, instead of transferring from the 5 to the 6 at hunts point av.

bx11 - interesting. extending it to the parkchester station (6) is bold. definitely helps out Washington heights ridership, giving them another option... if they bite (due to the alteration made to the bx36) 

bx15 - I'm extremely pleased with this proposal strictly from an operator's perspective. ask any former/current 126 st/100 st/MV/West Farms/KB depot operator how disgusting two-fifth traffic is... and how late they've been as a result. case in point the bx15. bronx ridership suffers immensely because of the two-fifth crawl. I'm actually amused to see that certain members' suggestion of a 'M125' may come to fruition. i feel bad for the customers. hopefully there'll be a free continuation transfer between the M125 (that'll be weird to say) and the bx15. 

Bx18 - they created a western bx version of the bx23... it's not a horrible idea... i guess. 

bx28 - hallelujah! FINALLY! someone came to their senses re: chopping the mosholu pky leg. simplicity at it's finest. 

bx30 - the Boston road direct. runs will definitely be chopped & reallocated

bx34 - FINALLY being moved off of valentine & Bainbridge... i would say that was a no-brainer, but maybe that's a tad harsh.

bx36 - see? that wasn't so hard, was it? 😂 pete rock & cl smooth, baby (straighten it out) 

bx40/42 - shifting it over to 180 Street & chopping the 42... at 8 minute headways? can't argue with that. HOWEVER, Throgs Neck will be pissed (i think) 

Q50 - i honestly don't know what to make of this. i know purists that still want to hold onto a piece of QBx/Queens Surface Corporation/PBL history by this line staying intact... HOWEVER, i can't speak to how many customers truly park their asses in seats in Co-Op City & exit at 39 avenue.

M100 - YES! YES! oh sweet Lord, YES 100 times over! let Kingsbridge rejoice, and sing lamentations to the heavens. I'm personally tired of carrying air across two-five on southbound M100 runs, and management is dead tired of sending 100's across two-way piling on dead miles, so to speak.

M125 - a good idea i suppose, i wonder who gets this assignment... Manhattanville, i presume?

BxM2 - Riverside Drive non-stop? I'd love VG8's input on this

BxM4 - no more Grand Concourse. huh... 

The BxM17 - holy f**k! how is that gonna work? I'd love to see the runtime/paddles for those runs 😂 do they understand how many pm rush hour miracles would have to simultaneously occur to even be remotely on-time, and how many things could go wrong for this to become an instant turn off for Co-Op customers?

BxM18 - mirroring the BxM2 via Riverside Drive. okay... 

all in all, i must say, as much i respect certain aspects of this proposal, this is simply a draft, and i reserve the right to be pessimistic. these "modifications" are for a much larger network than the infamous Staten Island Express Network... and we see how that turned out.

Edited by EastFlatbushLarry
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8 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

alright... I'll bite. i feel compelled to comment on this network, due to potential changes to runs/the KB run board.

bx6SBS - i can't truly say it's necessarily a good or bad idea sending it to Turnbull... definitely would be a one seat ride across town, instead of transferring from the 5 to the 6 at hunts point av.

bx11 - interesting. extending it to the parkchester station (6) is bold. definitely helps out Washington heights ridership, giving them another option... if they bite (due to the alteration made to the bx36) 

bx15 - I'm extremely pleased with this proposal strictly from an operator's perspective. ask any former/current 126 st/100 st/MV/West Farms/KB depot operator how disgusting two-fifth traffic is... and how late they've been as a result. case in point the bx15. bronx ridership suffers immensely because of the two-fifth crawl. I'm actually amused to see that certain members' suggestion of a 'M125' may come to fruition. i feel bad for the customers. hopefully there'll be a free continuation transfer between the M125 (that'll be weird to say) and the bx15. 

Bx18 - they created a western bx version of the bx23... it's not a horrible idea... i guess. 

bx28 - hallelujah! FINALLY! someone came to their senses re: chopping the mosholu pky leg. simplicity at it's finest. 

bx30 - the Boston road direct. runs will definitely be chopped & reallocated

bx34 - FINALLY being moved off of valentine & Bainbridge... i would say that was a no-brainer, but maybe that's a tad harsh.

bx36 - see? that wasn't so hard, was it? 😂 pete rock & cl smooth, baby (straighten it out) 

bx40/42 - shifting it over to 180 Street & chopping the 42... at 8 minute headways? can't argue with that. HOWEVER, Throgs Neck will be pissed (i think) 

Q50 - i honestly don't know what to make of this. i know purists that still want to hold onto a piece of QBx/Queens Surface Corporation/PBL history by this line staying intact... HOWEVER, i can't speak to how many customers truly park their asses in seats in Co-Op City & exit at 39 avenue.

M100 - YES! YES! oh sweet Lord, YES 100 times over! let Kingsbridge rejoice, and sing lamentations to the heavens. I'm personally tired of carrying air across two-five on southbound M100 runs, and management is dead tired of sending 100's across two-way piling on dead miles, so to speak.

M125 - a good idea i suppose, i wonder who gets this assignment... Manhattanville, i presume?

BxM2 - Riverside Drive non-stop? I'd love VG8's input on this

BxM4 - no more Grand Concourse. huh... 

The BxM17 - holy f**k! how is that gonna work? I'd love to see the runtime/paddles for those runs 😂 do they understand how many miracles would have to simultaneously occur to even be remotely on-time, and how many things could go wrong for this to become an instant turn off for Co-Op customers?

BxM18 - mirroring the BxM2 via Riverside Drive. okay... 

all in all, i must say, as much i respect certain aspects of this proposal, this is simply a draft, and i reserve the right to be pessimistic. these "modifications" are for a much larger network than the infamous Staten Island Express Network... and we see how that turned out.

The BxM2 is going to have a lot of people pissed (myself included). First off they are trying to appease BxM2 riders by having the BxM1 stop at 96th and 5th. However, going home, the Madison and 99th stop is lost, which means Mount Sinai doctors, RNs will have to walk ALL THE WAY to 3rd Avenue to get the BxM1. The other issue is many seniors go to Mount Sinai for doctor’s appointments. They would now also have to walk all the way to 3rd Avenue or walk up hill to 96th and take the M96 across adding to the commute. The other issue is that the BxM2 serves 5th Avenue for the museums and then Central Park West and Central Park. Those connections are completely lost, and we lose the Central Park West and West 81st street connection as well. They also appear to be discountining the via Riverdale Avenue trips which is a problem. There are people that are east of Riverdale Avenue that would lose the Riverdale and West 236th street stop, as that is a big one in the morning. People are also going to be pissed about the BxM18 since most of us use the BxM1, BxM2 and BxM18. Lots of questions to be answered that’s for sure.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The BxM2 is going to have a lot of people pissed (myself included). First off they are trying to appease BxM2 riders by having the BxM1 stop at 96th and 5th. However, going home, the Madison and 99th stop is lost, which means Mount Sinai doctors, RNs will have to walk ALL THE WAY to 3rd Avenue to get the BxM1. The other issue is many seniors go to Mount Sinai for doctor’s appointments. They would now also have to walk all the way to 3rd Avenue or walk up hill to 96th and take the M96 across adding to the commute. The other issue is that the BxM2 serves 5th Avenue for the museums and then Central Park West and Central Park. Those connections are completely lost, and we lose the Central Park West and West 81st street connection as well. They also appear to be discountining the via Riverdale Avenue trips which is a problem. There are people that are east of Riverdale Avenue that would lose the Riverdale and West 236th street stop, as that is a big one in the morning. People are also going to be pissed about the BxM18 since most of us use the BxM1, BxM2 and BxM18. Lots of questions to be answered that’s for sure.

i was definitely under the assumption that these particular changes may lend themselves to alienation of certain demographics in ridership. i wouldn't speak from a place of knowledge pertaining to the BxM2/18 or the Riverdale express runs in general when i have none... just seemed a tad off from my vantage point

Edited by EastFlatbushLarry

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Cutting Q50 service in favor of enhanced Bx23 service....that's one move that's gonna get protested real quick. Outside of the Pelham Bay Park crowds, Q50s still tend to have people from points south of Pelham Bay Park going to Co-Op City.....


That BxM17 looked good at first, but the fact that they want to send it through Queens could potentially be a disaster depending on how many trips it would have.....I can definitely see that line being split between Eastchester & College Point.

While I like the idea of the Bx15 being split, the M125 designation just sounds atrocious. While I get that they're making things as simple as possible....when you say it out loud, it just sounds bad.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

While I like the idea of the Bx15 being split, the M125 designation just sounds atrocious. While I get that they're making things as simple as possible....when you say it out loud, it just sounds bad.

in my mind, I'm trying out my ADA's and I'm having a hard time with that one... God, that M125 is not verbally sexy at all

Edited by EastFlatbushLarry
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21 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

in my mind, I'm trying out my ADA's and I'm having a hard time with that one... God, that M125 is not verbally sexy at all

It may not be sexy, but it's certainly identifiable.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i was definitely under the assumption that these particular changes may lend themselves to alienation of certain demographics in ridership. i wouldn't speak from a place of knowledge pertaining to the BxM2/18 or the Riverdale express runs in general when i have none... just seemed a tad off from my vantage point

It is off. The BxM1, 2 and 18 all share the same riders and now what they are trying to do is say ok, BxM2 riders going to West Midtown will have a faster ride. Problem is they underestimate where the ridership comes from on the BxM2. I don’t see anything about frequency changes at all, and I also don’t understand how they chopped off the Northern part of it arguing that the Deegan suffers from congestion, yet they are having the BxM1 use... The Deegan... So is this really the reason or are they trying to push more people to the BxM1 so that they can try to axe the BxM2. Don’t get me wrong, there is a nice chunk of ridership at from these other stops, but you lose a huge chunk of that from the Mount Sinai crowd, and the 5th and 80th crowd. You are forcing all of those people over to the BxM1 with no 5th Avenue relief and no change in frequency. The BxM2 helps alleviate crowding on the BxM1.

Mind you, it wasn’t that long ago that they stated that having the BxM2 come across Central Park from the Upper West to the Upper East would attract more ridership and it has. They are just trying to design the line around congestion instead of addressing it.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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4 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

That BxM17 looked good at first, but the fact that they want to send it through Queens could potentially be a disaster depending on how many trips it would have.....I can definitely see that line being split between Eastchester & College Point.

I consider that entire concept to be a mess and a half, mostly because there aren't really any good places to run it. Hell, the proposed route reeks of trying to keep it out of the heart of Midtown and especially off of 5th Avenue (ditto for the BxM18 proposal).

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5 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

M125 - a good idea i suppose, i wonder who gets this assignment... Manhattanville, i presume?

Maybe Kingsbridge or west Farms like the M100 and Bx15 respectively since it is split off from the Bx15 and could possibly be a Bronx Division route. Manhattanville and Mother Clara Hale can not possibly take on additional buses without breaking capacity constraints. Both have also have acquired a bunch of good bus Fleets fresh from the factory in recent years that can provide the crosstown service. Let’s see what we have:

40 2015-16 LFS buses for Kingsbridge

69 2016-17 New Flyer XN40s for West Farms

72 2017-18 New Flyer XN60s with 55 for West Farms Local service (the other 17 for Bx6 SBS service)

21 2018-19 New Flyer XD40s for West Farms (currently being sorted out like this bus redesign)

60 2018-19 NovaBus LFS for Kingsbridge (being delivered)

Articulated buses should also be used for the service as well.

Speaking of 125th Street, one should also look into the possibility of closing the street between St. Nicholas Avenue and 2nd Avenue to all traffic except buses and trucks, similar to what is to be done on 14th Street between 3rd and 9th Avenues, to speed up bus traffic. The concepts and lessons from that project should be applied here. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

While I like the idea of the Bx15 being split, the M125 designation just sounds atrocious. While I get that they're making things as simple as possible....when you say it out loud, it just sounds bad.

The M125/Bx15 split ain't a bad concept. I actually think this would help the route somewhat because boarding and walking at 149 St and Third Avenue to points north is nearly impossible. 

This only thing I would really change is moving the Bx15 stop to where the Bx41 is currently now (prior to 2015).

Edited by MysteriousBtrain
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11 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

bx34 - FINALLY being moved off of valentine & Bainbridge... i would say that was a no-brainer, but maybe that's a tad harsh.

They tried that in the early 1990s (using Bedford Park instead of 204th). It lasted one week, and then politics forced it back.

 

10 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

While I like the idea of the Bx15 being split, the M125 designation just sounds atrocious. While I get that they're making things as simple as possible....when you say it out loud, it just sounds bad.

 

Maybe lose the "1" and call it M25.

 

13 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

However, this new Co-Op City // Downtown Manhattan Express is a doozy. A grand tour of Queens before you reach Manhattan.. I'd scream HELL on this. If these planners were smart. I'd go 278 to Triboro. Triboro to 2nd Avenue (Express to 86th). Right on 86 to West End Avenue. Left on West End Avenue to Downtown with corresponding Hudson Yards- Javits Convention Center @ 34th and 12th with subway connection to (7) train to East side than stop to Chambers. Right on Chambers to Battery Park City and Water Street. 

 

During rush hours, is there really a "best" route Or is everything some degree of bad?

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18 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Maybe lose the "1" and call it M25.

There's a reason why they went with the less sexy name.

 

8 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

During rush hours, is there really a "best" route Or is everything some degree of bad?

For a route connecting those two areas, everything sucks.

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15 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

During rush hours, is there really a "best" route Or is everything some degree of bad?

I don’t want a grand tour of Queens before reaching Downtown Manhattan. They did this route all wrong. Again, I’m very ignorant when it comes to The Bronx and Staten Island express bus service. However, through studying the routes and reading comments from others I try my hardest to provide a decent opinion in regards to faster service into the Downtown business district. 

At least the good thing here everything is non-stop to Co-Op City. 

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8 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

bx6SBS - i can't truly say it's necessarily a good or bad idea sending it to Turnbull... definitely would be a one seat ride across town, instead of transferring from the 5 to the 6 at hunts point av.

bx15 - I'm extremely pleased with this proposal strictly from an operator's perspective. ask any former/current 126 st/100 st/MV/West Farms/KB depot operator how disgusting two-fifth traffic is... and how late they've been as a result. case in point the bx15. bronx ridership suffers immensely because of the two-fifth crawl. I'm actually amused to see that certain members' suggestion of a 'M125' may come to fruition. i feel bad for the customers. hopefully there'll be a free continuation transfer between the M125 (that'll be weird to say) and the bx15. 

bx40/42 - shifting it over to 180 Street & chopping the 42... at 8 minute headways? can't argue with that. HOWEVER, Throgs Neck will be pissed (i think) 

M100 - YES! YES! oh sweet Lord, YES 100 times over! let Kingsbridge rejoice, and sing lamentations to the heavens. I'm personally tired of carrying air across two-five on southbound M100 runs, and management is dead tired of sending 100's across two-way piling on dead miles, so to speak.

M125 - a good idea i suppose, i wonder who gets this assignment... Manhattanville, i presume?

Bx6 SBS: I think they're trying to have those trips replace most/all of the Bx5 short-turns to White Plains Road. 

M125: I hope they expand the transfer policy to at least allow 3 legged transfers (if not universal/unlimited transfers) across the board.

In any case for the M100, the issue is that the only Amsterdam-125th connection is the unreliable M101. Something needs to be done with that route (some type of split) before the M100 is cut back.

Bx40/42 I don't think Throgs Neck will be too pissed. The Bx40 is still available for a good chunk of Throgs Neck for those who want direct service past Westchester Square. And both the Bx40/42 are more frequent than the present-day 40/42 (so those around the southern end of Tremont will see a nice boost in service). And having a reliable shuttle to/from the 6 train (the Bx42) is a good thing

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1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

I don’t want a grand tour of Queens before reaching Downtown Manhattan. They did this route all wrong. Again, I’m very ignorant when it comes to The Bronx and Staten Island express bus service. However, through studying the routes and reading comments from others I try my hardest to provide a decent opinion in regards to faster service into the Downtown business district. 

At least the good thing here everything is non-stop to Co-Op City. 

 

Whether the grand tour is of Queens or of Manhattan is irrelevant. Logic dictates that the non-stop part of the route should use the fastest path (or the "least slow" path), even if that fastest path is...

 

(1)  Local streets in Manhattan;

(2)  The proposed routing (Whitestone-Van-Wyck-LIE-QMT-FDR Drive)  

(3)  I-278 into Brooklyn (i.e. Bruckner-Triboro-BQE) to the Williamsburg Bridge to Allen Street.

(4)  Throggs Neck Bridge-Clearview-LIE-QMT-FDR Drive

(5)  I-95 to Riverside Drive (then follow the new BxM18 path)

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Posted (edited)

They're going to get an ear full from Co-Op City later this month. There really needs to be GunHill Road (5) coverage for Northern Co-Op City. The 38 is used fairly well. They should keep the 28/38 setup until SBS conversation. This is at the very least. The Q50 could stand to be routed to Bay Plaza.  But if nothing else changes the (5) Train Coverage is important.

Edited by RailRunRob

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14 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Whether the grand tour is of Queens or of Manhattan is irrelevant. Logic dictates that the non-stop part of the route should use the fastest path (or the "least slow" path), even if that fastest path is...

 

(1)  Local streets in Manhattan;

(2)  The proposed routing (Whitestone-Van-Wyck-LIE-QMT-FDR Drive)  

(3)  I-278 into Brooklyn (i.e. Bruckner-Triboro-BQE) to the Williamsburg Bridge to Allen Street.

(4)  Throggs Neck Bridge-Clearview-LIE-QMT-FDR Drive

(5)  I-95 to Riverside Drive (then follow the new BxM18 path)

I like # 5 better. Only because you don’t have to go intra-borough Bronx to Queens just to get to Downtown Manhattan. 

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23 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

They're going to get an ear full from Co-Op City later this month. There really needs to be GunHill Road (5) coverage for Northern Co-Op City. The 38 is used fairly well. They should keep the 28/38 setup until SBS conversation. This is at the very least. The Q50 could stand to be routed to Bay Plaza.  But if nothing else changes the (5) Train Coverage is important.

Boston Road is not that far from the Baychester Avenue station. Section 3 is in close proximity to Section 4 (where Bx28 service will be available, with a bump in frequency as compensation).

That's pretty much how I expect it to play out (and it's not technically wrong).

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