Bronx Redesign Draft Released

[Via Garibaldi 8]

21 minutes ago, DetSMART45 said:

Your Google Maps illustration was a good example of how, because of MTA mismanagement over the years (with their accomplices at DOT and other city agencies), customers have fled, turned to their own transportation, and nobody's in any better position. I'd even say that those Google times could be way off, dependent on time/day, just like how MTA late night/overnight run times could be 30 minutes but during peak traffic the same run is 78 -- for a one-way route of 6 miles, for example.

Around here, pretty much any time of day, a bus trip is a consistent 2x what Google specs a point-point car trip is. Most city or suburban runs are 3 minutes/mile, with the biggest difference being that DDOT keeps that timing while doing MTA-style  every-stop service (and load style), while SMART builds the 3 minute/mile in "just in case" (which is partially why suburbia hates the buses, as to not run hot, operators have to travel below speed limits with cars zooming by).

By your example, a Peak run -- with a significant portion being freeway/expressway/supposed-higher speed roadway travel -- clocking at 4-6x a Google-guessed time shows how bad things really are. A bus trip upwards of 120 minutes end-end (not including layover), on a commuter line no less, should just be plain unacceptable (local possibly, but there you're going to have a miniscule amount of customers truly going from end-end).

That BxM17 "idea" should be used primarily as the main argument cementing the fact that DOT (city or state) has exacerbated the travel problems, and has done nothing to "urge" or "persuade" people to get back on the buses/subways/trains. If anything, this idea should force DOT to institute HOV-lanes (along with STRICT enforcement -- maybe a $300 ticket like Philly does with handicap-violations) to "show" the people sitting in gridlock that the buses passing them by would be a better option.

However, I can't believe some MTA "planner" actually came up with the BxM17 idea, got enough people to scratch their chins, have a think, and decide to go forward with it. Looks good on paper, but that idea should have been shot down straight away by two simple roadtrips during Peak -- not in MTA cars, but on an Express bus.

I'm also concerned that people that don't use these services that are part of transportation groups are going to have too much influence on our commutes.  There is a blog out there where transportation "experts" that don't live here are saying that more stops should be consolidated, without having a clue about the topography of the Bronx. Much of the borough is hilly, even the so called "flat" areas (they can be flatter than other hilly areas, but still hilly overall), so stop placement is very important.

[Q43LTD]

I would have to give this Bronx redesign draft a D. I see missed opportunities with the Bx10, 20 and 46.  The  will definitely have to go back to the drawing board with Co-Op City. 

 

[Lex]

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm also concerned that people that don't use these services that are part of transportation groups are going to have too much influence on our commutes.  There is a blog out there where transportation "experts" that don't live here are saying that more stops should be consolidated, without having a clue about the topography of the Bronx. Much of the borough is hilly, even the so called "flat" areas (they can be flatter than other hilly areas, but still hilly overall), so stop placement is very important.

That reminds me of someone's "pedestrian" observations...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, Lex said:

That reminds me of someone's "pedestrian" observations...

That's exactly what I'm referring to...

[BreeddekalbL]

8 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

I don't think supervision would like that lol

I used to see X1's on 4th Avenue sometimes but I haven't seen any since the SIM changes. I think they really cracked down on ops taking unauthorized detours.

Lol what do they want me to do if LIE is brought to it's knees, just sit there?

[RailRunRob]

 

38 minutes ago, DetSMART45 said:

That BxM17 "idea" should be used primarily as the main argument cementing the fact that DOT (city or state) has exacerbated the travel problems, and has done nothing to "urge" or "persuade" people to get back on the buses/subways/trains. If anything, this idea should force DOT to institute HOV-lanes (along with STRICT enforcement -- maybe a $300 ticket like Philly does with handicap-violations) to "show" the people sitting in gridlock that the buses passing them by would be a better option.

However, I can't believe some MTA "planner" actually came up with the BxM17 idea, got enough people to scratch their chins, have a think, and decide to go forward with it. Looks good on paper, but that idea should have been shot down straight away by two simple roadtrips during Peak -- not in MTA cars, but on an Express bus.

Indeed I see your point the MTA and DOT need better integration and inter-agency communication. HOV and transit priority lanes need to be better planned and expanded. I guess just playing devil's advocate for a second from a transit planner POV. What are we saying don't try this BXM17 service at all? There no Ideal route for the service there's going to the possibility traffic in pretty much every scenario. Westside, Second Ave Via Queens. The bright spot is the Technology is there for Real-time traffic flow and reroutes. The word is the MTA is pooling there bus time data with Uber and few other sources for quicker reroutes options on the fly I'm sure the Planners had this in mind as well.  How is this different from a SIM26 or BXM18 what's the travel time on those routes?

FYI

https://eng.uber.com/category/articles/uberdata/ 

[Lex]

30 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's exactly what I'm referring to...

And that's why I can't take his proposals seriously enough to even call them decent...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

 

Indeed I see your point the MTA and DOT need better integration and inter-agency communication. HOV and transit priority lanes need to be better planned and expanded. I guess just playing devil's advocate for a second from a transit planner POV. What are we saying don't try this BXM17 service at all? There no Ideal route for the service there's going to the possibility traffic in pretty much every scenario. Westside, Second Ave Via Queens. The bright spot is the Technology is there for Real-time traffic flow and reroutes. The word is the MTA is pooling there bus time data with Uber and few other sources for quicker reroutes options on the fly I'm sure the Planners had this in mind as well.  How is this different from a SIM26 or BXM18 what's the travel time on those routes?

FYI

https://eng.uber.com/category/articles/uberdata/ 

No, what the planners are saying with this routing is all of the traffic headaches are in Manhattan, so let's design the route so it avoids it entirely, as if there aren't traffic back-ups in Queens.  It's absurd.  I can say this because I spoke with the Bronx Planner in my first meeting who is responsible for this re-design, where we discussed this very thing.  There are lots of problems here and the big one is that the  and DOT both don't have their sh*t together.  The  has to depend on the DOT and the DOT is behind on a lot of things such as bus lanes and Traffic Signal Priority. Since the  has to depend on the DOT, their attitude is we will design routes around traffic as if traffic can be avoided.

The current BxM18 is pretty direct given the street layout in Manhattan. There are bus lanes on 5th all the way down to Midtown. After that it hits a little traffic going Downtown, but Broadway is what it is. It's the DOT that has exacerbated the traffic issue.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, Lex said:

And that's why I can't take his proposals seriously enough to even call them decent...

He doesn't even live here! The guy lives in Paris! Give me a break. I'm extremely disappointed with the Bx7, Bx10 and Bx9.  None of those routes are seeing any real changes and they should be.  

[RailRunRob]

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No, what the planners are saying with this routing is all of the traffic headaches are in Manhattan, so let's design the route so it avoids it entirely, as if there aren't traffic back-ups in Queens.  It's absurd.  I can say this because I spoke with the Bronx Planner in my first meeting who is responsible for this re-design, where we discussed this very thing.  There are lots of problems here and the big one is that the  and DOT both don't have their sh*t together.  The  has to depend on the DOT and the DOT is behind on a lot of things such as bus lanes and Traffic Signal Priority. Since the  has to depend on the DOT, their attitude is we will design routes around traffic as if traffic can be avoided.

The current BxM18 is pretty direct given the street layout in Manhattan. There are bus lanes on 5th all the way down to Midtown. After that it hits a little traffic going Downtown, but Broadway is what it is. It's the DOT that has exacerbated the traffic issue.  

I got you and I agree on the DOT issues. I guess the point I'm trying to make with the BXM17 it's a very unique route in the fact unlike most QM,X and SIM routes that have 2 ways into there native boroughs. The 17 has at least 4-5 points of entry to the Bronx with this new data expansion I wouldn't be surprised if some northbound trips took Manhattan or maybe the BQE or the Triboro. A route like that could be more fluid than a SIM route that just has the Verrazano or Goethals in. By the time the Bus gets to 20th street depending on traffic, it could be routed accordingly. I don't feel the route will be locked. There's not much the MTA can do about the DOT but at least you can calculate the best option.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

I got you and I agree on the DOT issues. I guess the point I'm trying to make with the BXM17 it's a very unique route in the fact unlike most QM,X and SIM routes that have 2 ways into there native boroughs. The 17 has at least 4-5 points of entry to the Bronx with this new data expansion I wouldn't be surprised if some northbound trips took Manhattan or maybe the BQE or the Triboro. A route like that could be more fluid than a SIM route that just has the Verrazano or Goethals in. By the time the Bus gets to 20th street depending on traffic, it could be routed accordingly. I don't feel the route will be locked. There's not much the MTA can do about the DOT but at least you can calculate the best option.

But that's the question though. If they are trying to avoid Manhattan entirely what is the back-up plan? 

[RailRunRob]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

But that's the question though. If they are trying to avoid Manhattan entirely what is the back-up plan? 

Good question. If you don't do 1st Ave all the way up. You have the 59th Street Bridge and Queens Blvd to 278 as well as the QMT to 278 onto the RFK. 

[FLX9304]

On 6/1/2019 at 11:28 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

Bx6 SBS: I think they're trying to have those trips replace most/all of the Bx5 short-turns to White Plains Road. 

M125: I hope they expand the transfer policy to at least allow 3 legged transfers (if not universal/unlimited transfers) across the board.

In any case for the M100, the issue is that the only Amsterdam-125th connection is the unreliable M101. Something needs to be done with that route (some type of split) before the M100 is cut back.

Bx40/42 I don't think Throgs Neck will be too pissed. The Bx40 is still available for a good chunk of Throgs Neck for those who want direct service past Westchester Square. And both the Bx40/42 are more frequent than the present-day 40/42 (so those around the southern end of Tremont will see a nice boost in service). And having a reliable shuttle to/from the 6 train (the Bx42) is a good thing

I used to live by the Bx42 for 4 years, my mom still lives there. For her, she would have to transfer to the Bx40 at Westchester Sq. Before, she would get a one seat ride. 

For me, it was also a one seat ride to WFSq. in the mornings when I took the  or the . But let’s see how this is gonna work

 

On 6/1/2019 at 3:49 PM, WestFarms36 said:

Maybe the M105, or M51, or it could just be the M45, but numbering it M25 wouldn't be too bad either.

Whatever you are drinking, I want some. Manhattan crosstown numbers have been doing that but the very first one was the M14-14th Street Xt. Here was the renumbering since 1985:

Old M13: the 8/9/10th Sts now the M8

old M26: the 23rd St now the M23SBS

Old M16: the 34th St now the M34SBS & M34ASBS

Old M106: the 42nd St now the M42. There have been talks about converting it into a light rail route for years but to no avail

Old M27: the 49/50th Sts now the M50

Old M28: the 57th St now the M57, took over the old M103’s WEA Segment 

Old M103, the 59th St was the M58, now the M31 on 57th St. no bus service west of Columbus Circle. East of it is served by M5, M7 & the Q32. 

Old M29, the 65/66/67/68th Sts is now the M66

Old M30, the 72nd St now a redesigned M72

Old M17, the 79th St now the M79SBS

Old M18, the 86th St, now the M86SBS

Old M19, the 96/106 Sts, now a split M96/M106

Old M20, the 116th St now the M116. 

[RailRunRob]

 

 

1

2 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

 The  will definitely have to go back to the drawing board with Co-Op City. 

 

I'm still processing these proposed changes.  I kinda get what they're trying to do create a circular feeder route that ties into routes exiting Co-Op City. Id love to see what the full justification is for this design. Time savings, Capacity, etc. I just don't see how it can fully work at the very least the Bx28/38 could be remerged maybe to/from Bay Plaza but covering Section's 1-4. The 26 should stay as is covering 4 & 5. Not sure about the 30. The 29 I could see maybe being cut back.  The Q50 should maybe go to Bay Plaza ? Interesting move by the MTA.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

I'm still processing these proposed changes.  I kinda get what they're trying to do create a circular feeder route that ties into routes exiting Co-Op City. Id love to see what the full justification is for this design. Time savings, Capacity, etc. I just don't see how it can fully work at the very least the Bx28/38 could be remerged maybe to/from Bay Plaza but covering Section's 1-4. The 26 should stay as is covering 4 & 5. Not sure about the 30. The 29 I could see maybe being cut back.  The Q50 should maybe go to Bay Plaza ? Interesting move by the MTA.  

It's a service cut plain and simple.  Sure the Bx23 will be beefed up, but the Bx23 is run by Bus.  All of the other routes save the Q50 are run by NYCT. Different funding structure in place and they know that.  They are also trying to run down run times to meet their fiscal budget.  Less OT to pay, etc. This is what this is all about. They are trying to say hey you will have more reliable and frequent service, trust us, but for the more "frequent service" on the Bx23, they are cutting the Bx38, Bx30 and a few other lines in the mix. It is a service cut.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Via Garibaldi 8

[RailRunRob]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's a service cut plain and simple

You know what your right! I'm sitting here trying to process this. When plain and simple it's fewer options and less service overall.

[RailRunRob]

The MTA Bus/NYCT thing didn't cross my mind you're probably onto something there as well.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, RailRunRob said:

You know what your right! I'm sitting here trying to process this. When plain and simple it's fewer options and less service overall.

The other thing they will tell you is your commute will be faster.  That is true for some people. However, the more transfers you have to make, the time savings gets eaten up. You also have stops being yanked, so that means you have to walk further to reach the bus stop than before, so again time savings lost. If you are mobile and can move around quickly and time things just right, it works for some people. People with mobility problems and seniors who are the main people using the service are the ones that lose.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

The MTA Bus/NYCT thing didn't cross my mind you're probably onto something there as well.

The funding for Bus is different than it is for NYCT and the  knows this, believe me. They are not stupid. Bus gets funding from NYC to run the Bx23 and the Q50, so they have no problem beefing up the service on the Bx23 because they are gutting the other Co-Op local bus lines!! lol

[FLX9304]

15 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

Here are my thoughts on some of the local bus Bronx Changes (I don't use the buses there since I live in SI but I can tell you some things). I will do the express buses in another post.

Local Buses:

Bx4/Bx4A - Isn't the Bx4A supposed to be a variant of the Bx4 that just takes a different routing? The Bx4A should start and end where the Bx4 does, not be a short turn of if. Even though the combined routes will have a headway of 8 minutes or better from 12 minutes or better, the segment west of Southern Boulevard got its service cut from 12 minutes or better (Bx4 & Bx4A) to 15 minutes or better (Bx4 only).

Bx6 SBS: Guess they wanted to have the SBS sere more residential areas.

Bx8/Bx24: I guess this change to made to straighten up the most meandrous route in the city (after this change I'll guess we'll have to see what they do to the S57 - the soon to be most meandrous route in the city). I'll assume that the Bx24 would run more frequently than it does now to cover the area in Throngs Neck.

Bx10: I'm surprised that they didn't try to straighten the route east of Bailey Ave. Looks a bit meandrous in that area.

Bx11/Bx35/Bx36/Bx40: Like how they straightened the routes. Would make travel times much better.

Bx15/M125: So they decided to split the Bx15 to improve reliability on that route, ok. But I feel like this split could have been done better. The routing of the M125 is fine but the Bx15 should have it's western terminal in Manhattan to make connections to the subway and other Manhattan bus routes, preferably the 125th Street  station with the M35 and M102 (Maybe have some Bx15 buses short-turn at The Hub if they are too concerned about reliability). The M125's main issue is the proposed frequencies. The  says that the M125 would run every 8 minutes or better all day. With the M101 and the M60 SBS covering most of 125th street (The M100 is going to be cut back to Amsterdam/125th), I believe that this Bx15/M125 split would end up having the same fate as the M5/M55 split with the M125 getting the shorter end of the stick and ultimately end up running every 15-20 minutes most of the day. Unless if they take the M101 off of 125th when the Manhattan redesign comes, the M125 would be there just for coverage.

Bx18: They basically turned this route into a Morris Heights circulator, I'm fine with that.

Bx20: I'm surprised that this route didn't get the ax due to its low ridership and duplication of other routes😀

Co-Op City (Bx23/Bx26/Bx28/Bx29/Bx30/Bx38/Q50): What the  wants to do here is to have the Bx23 become the Co-Op City circulator and have every other route meet the Bx23 at some point in the route. Sounds good on paper but really isn't the best solution. This requires most people in Co-Op city not connecting with the  train to transfer. The Bx23 can still be the main route for getting around Co-Op City but there should be some changes. What could be done to improve service is to have the Q50 also serve the loop to give people a direct ride to Queens since Co-Op City is a big ridership generator for the Q50. I also think that the Routing of the Bx23 should be modified to serve the Dyre Avenue line since a lot of Co-Op city riders want to go to the  and not the  and with the Bx38 being eliminated, that is not an option without a transfer. Below is the map of my proposed Bx23 service. With the Q50 serving Co-Op city as well, The Bx23 would run every 5 minutes during the rush, every 10 minutes other times and every 20 minutes overnight. The Q50 would keep its regular frequency.

Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=19712vcjpTNgouWudYYO4UgFdWMRb1jK4&usp=sharing

Bx29: Good job they are adding overnight service. It's very dangerous to walk out of City Island because you have to walk along a highway to reach the mainland.

Bx30: Guess the BL-60, 61 and 62 buses are going to be closed-door in the Bronx now.

Bx42: This route went from a variant of the Bx40 to a shuttle route that goes to the  train. Wonder how this would work out.

Bx46: I'm surprised that there were zero changes made to this route. Saying that this route has little ridership and is relatively short and runs infrequently, I would think that they would have done something to this route. Oh well! Just another missed opportunity to make service better.

 

  

What I highlighted was the routes you made opinions: 

the Bx20 is peak service. If you looked at that route, that route saves passengers time waiting for the Bx10 from the Bx7. 

The Bx30 would reminisce the old Bx7 before 1984. 

The Bx46 gets more passengers to the pool in the summer and the Tiffany St Shops where there is an actual design of a real elevated tracks and a pair of R33 subway cars. It provides a One seat direct to the Longwood Ave  and Prospect Ave  🚇. So you gotta look at it from an employee who works in Hunts Point. 

[RailRunRob]

11 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The funding for Bus is different than it is for NYCT and the  knows this, believe me. They are not stupid. Bus gets funding from NYC to run the Bx23 and the Q50, so they have no problem beefing up the service on the Bx23 because they are gutting the other Co-Op local bus lines!! lol

I know a few of the folks at the Community board on that side of town. Going to reach out make sure they understand what's going on. Might even to sit with them and help them go thru this if need be.

[FLX9304]

Here are my thoughts: 

Bx4A/Bx5/Bx27: Since when they named that spot Gladstone Sq? 28 years living in NYC I never saw any routes with “Gladstone Sq” terminus. The routes before them: the Bx5/11/27/35 all used “Southern Blvd-West Farms Rd” as a terminus read. 

Bx8/24: Although it is gonna look like 2010 all over again (the 8 went str8 down) but at least the Bx24 is overnight 

Bx11: after so many years, my childhood street (174th St) says good bye to the Bx36/Bx36LTD for a direct route to 181st St., but my question is what is the DOT gonna do underneath the 174th St  for the Bx11 to turn on to Boston Rd. But service on Louis 9 Blvd (Ex-Wilkins Ave) & 172nd Street is gone! 😡

Bx15/M125: this i gotta see. But I wonder if the shared depot will end or keep it that way. 

But: No more LTD stops on 156th & 166th Sts. Limited Stops are: The Hub/149th St, 163rd, 168th, Claremont Pkwy, Tremont, 180th & 183rd Sts. 

As for buses on 125th St, there will just be three bus routes: M60SBS, M101 & M125

Bx28/38: 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡 they should’ve left the Bx38 alone until the conversion to SBS. 

Bx34: This thing was 6 years in the making. Before the Bx41 LTD became SBS, the Bx34 was on this plan along with the now scrapped Bx50. 

Bx36/Bx36LTD/Bx40: similar to the “swap” plan in 1990 & 1995 that never went through. But they are finally having a true 180th St line that will also concurrently run with the Bx9 from Boston Rd to Southern Blvd. 

[FLX9304]

As for you  bus supporters here is my take on the green colored routes: 

BxM4: JFW!!! What was they thinking eliminating the route from GC where the route is utilized? And send it to 241st was the biggest 404 that  will ever do. 

BxM5: ex-BxM11- They should’ve left the route number the same way it started. The BxM5 should’ve been one of two new express routes that was created. 

BxM17: Don’t you dare send that route over the CBX. The CBX (I-95) is a super disaster during both morning & afternoon peak hours. The BxM17 will have people fired from their jobs because of the “turns into 4 hours” commute. 

 

[ViaWaterViaChurch]

19 hours ago, Uncle Floyd Fan said:

A Queens Express Bus rider here....

Regarding the BxM17 - Is it possible that the MTA is looking to ultimately add stops in Queens to the route once the Queens Bus Redesign is under way? Based on the proposed routing, it looks like they could add a stop or two along the Whitestone Expressway. After all, it would be cheaper to have QM 2/20/32 passengers transfer to the BxM17 rather than start a new Wall St route from Bay Terrace.  As for the route itself, it is a long one which would likely get caught up in all sorts of traffic. At a minimum, why wouldn't they send the AM peak trips down the GCP as they already do for the QM 2/30/32? For the PM trips, why don't they use the Super Express routing of the BQE North to Astoria Blvd (I think this is still used for the QM2 and QM20 SX routing)? If needed, the MTA should allow the drivers flexibility to use alternate routes to get to the Throggs Neck Bridge - which is less likely to have heavy north-bound traffic vs the Whitestone Bridge.

Or, the MTA could use other routing for the BxM17 through the Bronx and Manhattan and keep the route out of Queens altogether. I'd be curious to know if the MTA has actually tested the run in a company car or a training bus - that would make some sense.

I’m a fellow Queens rider as well and have some further input. The problem with sending buses via the Throggs Neck bridge is that there is no way to get straight onto the Van Wyck from there without taking local roads through Whitestone which would probably negate any time savings from taking the route as an alternative to the Whitestone bridge. The Throggs Neck leads right into the Clearview Expressway and would give the bus some options to get to Manhattan such as taking Northern Blvd to the Van Wyck (same route as the QM3) or going down the Clearview to Union Turnpike and then running to the city like how the QM8 (or maybe QM8 super express would). Both of these trips would probably be much longer than taking the Whitestone expressway in the morning. 

Buses should definitely run via the Grand Central and Horace Harding as you suggested in the morning.  If this is done, I’d realistically say that door to door most people should be around 90 minutes to an hour and 45 minutes in the morning,  not much worse than the poor souls who take the QM8 in the morning. 

The afternoon will most certainly be a disaster. I’m pretty familiar with the downtown Queens runs and it would probably take anywhere from an hour and a half to an hour 45 just to get to the Whitestone expressway and linden boulevard on a good day. Drivers should be taking the BQE and Astoria Blvd to the Whitestone Expressway, getting off at Linden Blvd and then taking the Whitestone Expressway service road to the entrance to the Whitestone bridge on 14th Avenue.  

Regardless, it will probably be at least two hours back to the Bronx on an average day and possibly 3 hours on a bad day. There should definitely be some experimentation with running the buses via Manhattan and over the RFK for the PM rush to see if that’s faster. I’ve seen some suggestions of running the route via the Cross Bronx       (I-95), this would be an awful idea, there is way too much traffic and you will literally be crawling across the Bronx for hours at 5 mph. 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by ViaWaterViaChurch

[Lil 57]

I wonder what the frequency and the span of this BxM17 would be. I say that it would run from 5:30 AM to 8:30 AM every 20-30 minutes to Downtown and 4 PM to 7 PM every 30 minutes.