Bronx Redesign Draft Released

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

I wonder what the frequency and the span of this BxM17 would be. I say that it would run from 5:30 AM to 8:30 AM every 20-30 minutes to Downtown and 4 PM to 7 PM every 30 minutes.

Based on what?

[Lil 57]

6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Based on what?

Those are my guesses based on the other  Bus downtown routes and since it's basically a super express from Co-Op City to downtown it's won't run as frequently.

[Union Tpke]

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

He doesn't even live here! The guy lives in Paris! Give me a break. I'm extremely disappointed with the Bx7, Bx10 and Bx9.  None of those routes are seeing any real changes and they should be.  

He lives in Berlin now. He did not create the plan and said that "Overall the redesign seems fairly conservative – Riverdale, Wakefield, and Clasons Point seem unchanged, and only the eastern margin, from Coop City down to Throgs Neck, sees big changes." He knows a lot about construction costs, and regional rail. I mentioned the topography in the comment you responded to on the blogpost for a reason.

[Union Tpke]

9 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

He doesn't even live here! The guy lives in Paris! Give me a break. I'm extremely disappointed with the Bx7, Bx10 and Bx9.  None of those routes are seeing any real changes and they should be.  

How would you change the Bx7, Bx10 and Bx9?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

How would you change the Bx7, Bx10 and Bx9?

Something should be done on the DOT end. The Bx7, and Bx9 suffer along Broadway under the El. If you are going to keep them there, then you need to add more short-turns for starters and throw in a few artics to address overcrowding. Some have called for the routes to be broken up. During parts of the day if you don’t break up the lines, then definitely add more short-turns. The Bx9 should be SBS ASAP and parts of Broadway under the El could ne bus only during peak periods. The Bx7 could be limited stop only. Lots of things could be done.

 

[Lil 57]

25 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

How would you change the Bx7, Bx10 and Bx9?

The Bx10 could also be straightened east of Bailey Ave, see my commentary above.

[Union Tpke]

18 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Something should be done on the DOT end. The Bx7, and Bx9 suffer along Broadway under the El. If you are going to keep them there, then you need to add more short-turns for starters and throw in a few artics to address overcrowding. Some have called for the routes to be broken up. During parts of the day if you don’t break up the lines, then definitely add more short-turns. The Bx9 should be SBS ASAP and parts of Broadway under the El could ne bus only during peak periods. The Bx7 could be limited stop only. Lots of things could be done.

 

How would you break up the routes?

 

Just now, Lil 57 said:

The Bx10 could also be straightened east of Bailey Ave, see my commentary above.

Just looking at a map, that makes sense. However, I don't know the area's buses as well as parts of Queens so I could not say whether that is the best way of doing it.

[aemoreira81]

1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

The Bx10 could also be straightened east of Bailey Ave, see my commentary above.

The terrain of the area prevents that. Bailey and Sedgwick represent about a 100-foot change in elevation (Bailey is 20 feet above sea level where it meets West 233 Street; if 233 Street were drawn on a map to Sedgwick, Sedgwick is 120 feet above sea level at that point. NYC elevation map: https://data.cityofnewyork.us/Transportation/Elevation-points/szwg-xci6 

Bailey and Sedgwick are two unique markets. That said, for the Bx10 or Bx20, I would have proposed running the Bx20 along the wider Independence Avenue.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

42 minutes ago, aemoreira81 said:

That said, for the Bx10 or Bx20, I would have proposed running the Bx20 along the wider Independence Avenue.

Oh please... Independence Avenue is not wider overall. It is actually worse than Henry Hudson Parkway in parts because it is not only narrow but there are no sidewalks in parts as it is even more suburban.  Buses are detoured along there already when Henry Hudson Parkway is closed and it's a mess as buses have to squeeze through parts of the road.  Henry Hudson Parkway is the only option.  Independence is wide above 232nd until around 246th. The other issue is that Independence is not continuous.  It breaks up and some parts are even private.  What people fail to understand is that we do not have a street grid in Riverdale. The roads were laid out to follow the contour of the land which complicates things.  Henry Hudson Parkway with its faults makes the most sense. The buildings are laid back from the street. Independence is not and people would definitely complain about all of the buses coming along there. It is residential and quiet and people want it to remain that way.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

The Bx10 could also be straightened east of Bailey Ave, see my commentary above.

Straightened out how? lol 

[Lil 57]

15 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Straightened out how? lol 

The bus loops down on Paul and then goes back up on Jerome. It could just stay on Mosholu Parkway and make a left on Jerome EB and vice versa WB. Or make a left on Mosholu from Segdwick and a right on Gun Hill EB and vice versa WB.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

21 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

The bus loops down on Paul and then goes back up on Jerome. It could just stay on Mosholu Parkway and make a left on Jerome EB and vice versa WB. Or make a left on Mosholu from Segdwick and a right on Gun Hill EB and vice versa WB.

It does that to serve Lehman College.  The problem with the Bx10 is it provides "East-West" service through very hilly terrain that is not exactly direct, in part because of the street layout (Riverdale lacks a street grid and basically most of the entire route doesn't have a true street grid), but then it connects to Montefiore, colleges, subways and other important connections.  The only way to make the service more reliable is to break up the route or have short turns which they already do since it functions primarily as a subway feeder on the Riverdale end.

Looking at a map doesn't tell the whole story and this is another reason why removing stops is difficult because you have hills from east to west but also from north to south. The entire area that it runs through both east and west is extremely hilly and that is another reason why stops are so close. The Bronx in general would see less ridership if it wasn't so damn hilly.  The buses are a must in parts because of this. Ironically, Riverdale was designed on purpose to not have a street grid and to follow the natural terrain. The rest of the areas it passsd through are so hilly that having a street grid is almost impossible in parts.  

The other problem with trying to break it up is that you have people from Norwood that work in Riverdale because we have a very high elderly population - lots of nursing homes. Then you also have the universities or private schools in Riverdale that attract riders and the lack of a subway.  Very difficult to address those issues.

I'm not quite sure, but I believe that the Bronx is very complicated because parts of it were part of Westchester and were also developed in different stages, which is why it seems so broken up and areas are cut off from each other.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

The bus loops down on Paul and then goes back up on Jerome. It could just stay on Mosholu Parkway and make a left on Jerome EB and vice versa WB. Or make a left on Mosholu from Segdwick and a right on Gun Hill EB and vice versa WB.

As far as this area goes, it was either straightening out the Bx10 or straightening out the Bx28. You can only straighten out one of the two and they have chosen the Bx28.

Straightening out both would have meant even more lost coverage than what there already is with the Bx28 already bypassing Mosholu between Norwood and Bedford Park.

[Lex]

5 hours ago, paulrivera said:

As far as this area goes, it was either straightening out the Bx10 or straightening out the Bx28. You can only straighten out one of the two and they have chosen the Bx28.

Straightening out both would have meant even more lost coverage than what there already is with the Bx28 already bypassing Mosholu between Norwood and Bedford Park.

For what it's worth, it at least addresses the utter nonsense of eastbound buses on one route heading west in the same place as eastbound buses on a different route to the same destination heading east.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

45 minutes ago, Lex said:

For what it's worth, it at least addresses the utter nonsense of eastbound buses on one route heading west in the same place as eastbound buses on a different route to the same destination heading east.

True,  but again, the street layout over there is quirky.

[Future ENY OP]

Still looking at the draft plan and what I find interesting is that the Bx17 should of terminated along with the Bx33 in Port Morris near the old Walnut Depot now NYP Facility.

potential missed opportunity to expand into Port Morris via Bx17.  Current Bx17 is blocks from current Bx33 and it would of been a nice interline since WF has both the 17 & 33

Edited June 4, 2019 by Future ENY OP

[B35 via Church]

31 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Still looking at the draft plan and what I find interesting is that the Bx17 should of terminated along with the Bx33 in Port Morris near the old Walnut Depot now NYP Facility.

potential missed opportunity to expand into Port Morris via Bx17.  Current Bx17 is blocks from current Bx33 and it would of been a nice interline since WF has both the 17 & 33

The Bx17 used to run to Port Morris.... Service got truncated around 2004/05 or so.

No point in resending it over there; should be left right where it is along the Mill Brook houses.... Let the Bx33 deal with the industry over on the other side of the Bruck'.

Edited June 4, 2019 by B35 via Church

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

The Bx17 used to run to Port Morris.... Service got truncated around 2004/05 or so.

No point in resending it over there; should be left right where it is along the Mill Brook houses.... Let the Bx33 deal with the industry over on the other side of the Bruck'.

Damm. That part I didn’t really pay attention too. Makes sense. 

[FLX9304]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The Bx17 used to run to Port Morris.... Service got truncated around 2004/05 or so.

No point in resending it over there; should be left right where it is along the Mill Brook houses.... Let the Bx33 deal with the industry over on the other side of the Bruck'.

The Bx17 didn't get truncated, it got rerouted from Southern Blvd to St. Ann's Ave to serve what was partially ran by the old Bx32 until 1984 (The old Bx32 ran from 135th & St. Ann's to 161st & 3rd Ave to connect the Bx26/29/55 until its discontinuation on my 12th Birthday). That was done in 9/2005

Edited June 4, 2019 by FLX9304

[Riderrep]

On 6/1/2019 at 8:44 AM, JeremiahC99 said:

Maybe Kingsbridge or west Farms like the M100 and Bx15 respectively since it is split off from the Bx15 and could possibly be a Bronx Division route. Manhattanville and Mother Clara Hale can not possibly take on additional buses without breaking capacity constraints. Both have also have acquired a bunch of good bus Fleets fresh from the factory in recent years that can provide the crosstown service. Let’s see what we have:

40 2015-16 LFS buses for Kingsbridge

69 2016-17 New Flyer XN40s for West Farms

72 2017-18 New Flyer XN60s with 55 for West Farms Local service (the other 17 for Bx6 SBS service)

21 2018-19 New Flyer XD40s for West Farms (currently being sorted out like this bus redesign)

60 2018-19 NovaBus LFS for Kingsbridge (being delivered)

Articulated buses should also be used for the service as well.

Speaking of 125th Street, one should also look into the possibility of closing the street between St. Nicholas Avenue and 2nd Avenue to all traffic except buses and trucks, similar to what is to be done on 14th Street between 3rd and 9th Avenues, to speed up bus traffic. The concepts and lessons from that project should be applied here. 

 I lived on 125th I remember back in the 80's when the replaced the water mains. West bound traffic came via 126th all the way to Morningside then turned back on to 125th from there. The should make 125th  one-way. Downtown Brooklyn doesn't have cars on the main thoroughfare only buses

Edited June 4, 2019 by Riderrep

[JeremiahC99]

26 minutes ago, Riderrep said:

 I lived on 125th I remember back in the 80's when the replaced the water mains. West bound traffic came via 126th all the way to Morningside then turned back on to 125th from there. The should make 125th  one-way. Downtown Brooklyn doesn't have cars on the main thoroughfare only buses

That could be a nice idea, but let’s not get overzealous on the concept of one-way streets. It may potentially induce more traffic on 125 since it connects to the RFK Bridge. Instead, i suggested a more drastic plan of closing 125th Street to all car traffic from 2nd Avenue to Morningside Avenue between 5 AM to 10 PM like the current plan for 14th Street. As I said, lessons learned from 14th Street could be applied here.

I truly believe that a busway with no interfering car traffic would be the absolutely best way to improve crosstown service. However, given how some crosstown bus routes travel on narrow streets, a busway would not be great on all crosstown streets. They are usually suited for wider streets, such as 14th Street and 125th Street. If 125 were to close to car traffic between Morningside and 2nd Avenue, bus speeds should increase dramatically on the bus routes using 125th Street, therefore, relieving bus congestion.

[B35 via Church]

59 minutes ago, Riderrep said:

 I lived on 125th I remember back in the 80's when the replaced the water mains. West bound traffic came via 126th all the way to Morningside then turned back on to 125th from there. The should make 125th  one-way. Downtown Brooklyn doesn't have cars on the main thoroughfare only buses

Right.... Just what Manhattan needs - More congested one way streets!

14 hours ago, Lil 57 said:

The bus loops down on Paul and then goes back up on Jerome. It could just stay on Mosholu Parkway and make a left on Jerome EB and vice versa WB. Or make a left on Mosholu from Segdwick and a right on Gun Hill EB and vice versa WB.

Paul av isn't the problem with the Bx10, it's Jerome.... Completely wasteful.

The Bx10 should really be terminating at the hospital, instead of 205th - but of course, it isn't all that feasible to have buses terminating along GH up there full time..... I would still find a way to take the thing off Jerome.....

East of the Reservoir, the thing's really only used to get to all those schools over there, the  itself, and Montefiore.....

13 hours ago, paulrivera said:

As far as this area goes, it was either straightening out the Bx10 or straightening out the Bx28. You can only straighten out one of the two and they have chosen the Bx28.

Straightening out both would have meant even more lost coverage than what there already is with the Bx28 already bypassing Mosholu between Norwood and Bedford Park.

I'm not saying this to support Lil 57's point regarding straightening the Bx10 or anything, but (this proposal suggesting) taking the Bx28 away from Tracey Towers is ill-advised..... The Bx10 does not need to serve that complex; practically no demand for it....

 

Edited June 4, 2019 by B35 via Church

[paulrivera]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The Bx10 should really be terminating at the hospital, instead of 205th - but of course, it isn't all that feasible to have buses terminating along GH up there full time..... I would still find a way to take the thing off Jerome.....

East of the Reservoir, the thing's really only used to get to all those schools over there, the  itself, and Montefiore.....

 

If the Bx10 was to be terminated away from 205th  it might as well continue down Gun Hill Road to White Plains Road to help out the Bx28/fill in for the loss of Bx30, which will now be running by itself between Montefiore and the  train/Bx39.

Bainbridge between Montefiore and the  would still have the Bx16/28/34.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The Bx17 used to run to Port Morris.... Service got truncated around 2004/05 or so.

 

The only reason the Bx17 ever went there was that it ran out of the old Walnut Depot at 132nd & Walnut.

 

In 1998, then-Governor Pataki ordered the MTA to close Walnut Depot and give it to the Empire State Development Corporation, which then sold it to Rupert Murdoch for $1 to become a printing plant for the NY Post.

 

[Future ENY OP]

17 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

The only reason the Bx17 ever went there was that it ran out of the old Walnut Depot at 132nd & Walnut.

 

In 1998, then-Governor Pataki ordered the MTA to close Walnut Depot and give it to the Empire State Development Corporation, which then sold it to Rupert Murdoch for $1 to become a printing plant for the NY Post.

 

if that depot never closed The Bronx Division would really be in good shape as far as Division wide coverage.