Queens Existing Conditions Report Released

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

14 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

My point was that the walking transfer at Bell is a viable option as well as good exercise. (Yes, I regularly walk such distances and more.) If you'd rather spend 20-30 minutes standing at 48th/Bell waiting for the Q31, that is another viable option. Or, if you'd rather stay on the Q27 for another 25 minutes just to transfer more directly to the Q12/Q13 at Main Street (and then ride another 25 minutes back to Bell), that can also work.

I don't know in what world does that walk make it a viable option, nor do I think you know what 'viable' actually means. None of the options you mentioned are viable.

Also, this me, me, me attitude is precisely why we can't make any type of progress (not just applicable with respect to transit). You're failing to consider people who cannot make that type of walk for whatever reason (age, handicapped, other disabilities) who would need to either endure either a long ride in to Flushing to avoid walking. Then there are the people who could theoretically make the walk, but then the convenience (and logic) factor steps in. If a significant portion of your trip on transit consists of walking between the first and third leg of the trip (and then wait for the second bus on that third leg to show up). You might as well either walk the whole way, or drive (and most people would certainly do the latter). This isn't even considering any walking that occurs before catching the first bus and after getting off the second bus. 

[NY1635]

IIRC,  188th at Union is the most used stop. Lots of people from the QM5 get off there.  I used to use the QM5 and connect to the Q17 bus for Jamaica when traveling from work. East of 188th is nothing but houses and residential. Union just feels longer between 188th and Lakeville Road. Glen Oaks is just a residential area sandwiched between LIJ and North Shore Towers. 

I've been told that North Shore Towers just want the QM6 bus entering on Lakeville Road. I tried the QM6 to n25 combo and the waits for it is pretty long. To be fair, it's mostly seniors living there. A lot of city residents just want a faster ride into Jamaica and use the n25/n22 combo, or the n26 to get back into the city faster because the Q43 and Q46 looks feels slow.

The Q43 and Q1 are worst cause Hillside is the fastest way in and out of Nassau before sunrise/sunset. NICE should give the n22 24hr service cause it only takes the 22 45 minutes to reach Mineola, 70 minutes to reach RFM, and 90 minutes to reach Hicksville. The n24 is just 8 minutes behind it. Traffic on Old Country Road between Mineola and RFM seems to be what's causing most of the delays on those route and the n15.  

I used the MTA's own trip planner to find these numbers.

Edited December 29, 2019 by NY1635

[jaf0519]

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Hold on, running from where to HHE on every 10 peak/20 off peak?

Regardless, a Springfield route running from Bayside to Jamaica av. they'd likely run at 20 min. headways all day (sans overnight service) at best...... Stopping it dead at Union Tpke. from the north would have that bad boy running at coverage headways.....

Doing some rough math, between LTD service & local service, the Q27 operates around every 2.5 mins. on the AM rush, 7 mins. middays, 3 mins. on the PM rush, 3 mins. evenings, and the hourly hawk....

Most of that service I believe is going to be divvied up into / dedicated towards those (proposed) Q26 & Q27 services between Flushing & QCC.... In other words, the Springfield portion of the Q27's likely to see some serious cuts.... I'd be surprised if they even give it that much service (referring to your guess there).... The main reason the (real) Q27 runs on such low headways during peak hours is due to the Q27 Flushing-QCC leg.... This is why I wasn't on board with any of these, the Q27 should be spilt proposals on here... Splitting the Q27 makes it too easy for the MTA to justify cutting service along Springfield Blvd.....

The MTA will be reducing service on Springfield south of QCC, the question is by how much. Based on previous proposals from them, its hard to gauge whether they would reduce service and still overserve, or reduce drastically. I leaned more towards overserve. I mean, in the Bronx Redesign Plan, they didn’t even change the Bx46, which by no means anywhere close to a successful route, and they proposed the Bx30 retain frequent service, at 12 minutes or better on weekdays, when that would bring rush hour service on Boston Rd between Gun Hill and Pelham Pkwy from the ~6 an hour on the W60/61/62 to ~12 to 14 an hour with the Bx30. They are most likely not going to put the right amount of service on these coverage routes in Eastern Queens (Springfield/Bell and Francis Lewis/120). 

[jaf0519]

Another question that I have is, what will the MTA be doing with limited stop service? Currently the Q4, Q5, Q6, Q10, Q17, Q25, Q27, Q36, Q43, Q44 SBS, Q46, Q50, Q52 SBS, Q53 SBS, Q58, Q65, Q70 SBS, Q83, Q85, Q100, Q113, Q114 routes have either limited or SBS service. 

So far, from looking at the map: 

Q17 looks to be absorbed by a rerouted Q83

Q36 is basically cut and replaced by the Q110 (Q36 LTD was kind of pointless anyway)

Q58 they are splitting, will they split limited service too?

Q65 is would guess loses limited service and some frequency since it heads up to Beechurst instead of College Point

Q114 only portion was absorbed into an extended Q22, limited cut, as stops made in the Rockaways/Nassau County were local

Plus the MTA had mentioned in their Northeast Queens Bus Study a few years ago that they were considering limited zone service (Ex: Q46 local to Springfield, then nonstop to Kew Gardens). They might have considered some routes like this, and thats why some portions of the map are hard to read. They had said they were looking at the Q12, Q17, Q27, Q46, Q43, and Q88 for limited zone.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

5 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I don't know in what world does that walk make it a viable option, nor do I think you know what 'viable' actually means. None of the options you mentioned are viable.

 

I said only that the walk is a viable option, not "the only" viable option (as you're falsely trying to suggest).  Some people are physically able to walk that distance.

 

 

6 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

You're failing to consider people who cannot make that type of walk for whatever reason (age, handicapped, other disabilities) who would need to either endure either a long ride in to Flushing to avoid walking

 

 

Reread my prior post. I clearly did suggest that as another viable option (contrary to your suggestion).

[Gotham Bus Co.]

13 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

Plus the MTA had mentioned in their Northeast Queens Bus Study a few years ago that they were considering limited zone service (Ex: Q46 local to Springfield, then nonstop to Kew Gardens). 

 

That is exactly what the Q44A Express did before it evolved into the Q46 Limited. Stops were added for political reasons: people saw the bus going by and wanted to ride it, so that everybody could enjoy express service (meaning that nobody got to enjoy express service).

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

I said only that the walk is a viable option, not "the only" viable option (as you're falsely trying to suggest)....

He's questioning the notion of viability, period....

While that walk is something that I've done on a couple occasions, I wouldn't deem it as being necessarily viable either... It isn't something that I would go out suggesting to others, especially as part of any daily or otherwise consistent commute.... The MTA has the same disposition in regards to out of system subway xfers; putting it out there to the public like it's something commuters would be so open to doing....

On top of it, the fact that you mentioned that walk would be good exercise, comes off as condescending.....

9 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Also, this me, me, me attitude is precisely why we can't make any type of progress (not just applicable with respect to transit).

I don't see filing that particular service gap in question (between QCC & Bell/Northern) benefiting much of any greater good...

Also. I don't get the sense that was some display of selfishness on his part; as I see it, he brought up the fact that he regularly walks those distances to show that he's not a hypocrite...

3 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

Q58 they are splitting, will they split limited service too?

Yeah, the LTD's they're suggesting re-routing along HHE, east of QB......

Edited December 29, 2019 by B35 via Church

[limitednyc]

where will the q58 be  split at  and will ithe eastern half go further east?

[jaf0519]

20 minutes ago, limitednyc said:

where will the q58 be  split at  and will ithe eastern half go further east?

According to an article in the Queens Chronicle, it looks like the Q58 will be split into two routes, not like how the MTA split the M5 into the M5 and M55, but similar to how Nassau has buses like the N48 and N49. Both will share terminals in Flushing and Ridgewood, but one would follow the current route via 108 St and Corona Ave, while the other would likely stay on Horace Harding to the Queens Center Mall, and then take Queens Blvd over to Grand Ave. 

[bobtehpanda]

13 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Hold on, running from where to HHE on every 10 peak/20 off peak?

Regardless, a Springfield route running from Bayside to Jamaica av. they'd likely run at 20 min. headways all day (sans overnight service) at best...... Stopping it dead at Union Tpke. from the north would have that bad boy running at coverage headways.....

Doing some rough math, between LTD service & local service, the Q27 operates around every 2.5 mins. on the AM rush, 7 mins. middays, 3 mins. on the PM rush, 3 mins. evenings, and the hourly hawk....

Most of that service I believe is going to be divvied up into / dedicated towards those (proposed) Q26 & Q27 services between Flushing & QCC.... In other words, the Springfield portion of the Q27's likely to see some serious cuts.... I'd be surprised if they even give it that much service (referring to your guess there).... The main reason the (real) Q27 runs on such low headways during peak hours is due to the Q27 Flushing-QCC leg.... This is why I wasn't on board with any of these, the Q27 should be spilt proposals on here... Splitting the Q27 makes it too easy for the MTA to justify cutting service along Springfield Blvd.....

Let me be clearer.

If the Q27 was cut back to HHE, or if the Q27 was cut back to Jamaica, this new Springfield route (let's call it the Q27a for now) would probably run 10/20 or 15/30 respectively. Maybe even 10/15.

Do you really think Q27's Springfield leg, particularly south of Jamaica, justifies 2.5/7/3/3 headways? IIRC there was a time when the hawk buses didn't even run to Cambria Heights.

Edited December 29, 2019 by bobtehpanda

[limitednyc]

26 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

According to an article in the Queens Chronicle, it looks like the Q58 will be split into two routes, not like how the MTA split the M5 into the M5 and M55, but similar to how Nassau has buses like the N48 and N49. Both will share terminals in Flushing and Ridgewood, but one would follow the current route via 108 St and Corona Ave, while the other would likely stay on Horace Harding to the Queens Center Mall, and then take Queens Blvd over to Grand Ave. 

would that effect the q59  and if so what would cover the western end of  the q59?

[jaf0519]

14 minutes ago, limitednyc said:

would that effect the q59  and if so what would cover the western end of  the q59?

Looks like on the map the western part of the Q59, from 61 St to Brooklyn is covered by a rerouted Q38 that looks to run from Woodhaven Blvd  station, down Eliot, and instead of turning around towards the Middle Village-Metropolitan Ave , it turns right on Fresh Pond, covers the Q39 to Rust St, and covers the Q59 into Brooklyn. It follows the Q54 route to Williamsburg after that. Looks like nothing covers the Grand St/Kent/Wythe Aves portion of the Q59.

[limitednyc]

12 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

Looks like on the map the western part of the Q59, from 61 St to Brooklyn is covered by a rerouted Q38 that looks to run from Woodhaven Blvd  station, down Eliot, and instead of turning around towards the Middle Village-Metropolitan Ave , it turns right on Fresh Pond, covers the Q39 to Rust St, and covers the Q59 into Brooklyn. It follows the Q54 route to Williamsburg after that. Looks like nothing covers the Grand St/Kent/Wythe Aves portion of the Q59.

i just hope they are working hand and hand with the Brooklyn planners to replace the q59 in north Williamsburg.

[jaf0519]

18 minutes ago, limitednyc said:

i just hope they are working hand and hand with the Brooklyn planners to replace the q59 in north Williamsburg.

They look to be cutting service in the area altogether. From the map shown, the Q59 wont be replaced on Grand St, and the B24 looks to be rerouted from serving Metropolitan Ave, leaving it with no service, to cover Grand St Extension with the Q54 and rerouted Q38.

Also, the “How we’re doing it” section of the Brooklyn Bus Redesign specifically mentions reducing subway competition and route redundancy, and the Q59 in Williamsburg is never more than a few blocks away from the  or B62. I would say B32, but the map no longer shows that route either.

Edited December 29, 2019 by jaf0519

[limitednyc]

23 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

They look to be cutting service in the area altogether. From the map shown, the Q59 wont be replaced on Grand St, and the B24 looks to be rerouted from serving Metropolitan Ave, leaving it with no service, to cover Grand St Extension with the Q54 and rerouted Q38.

Also, the “How we’re doing it” section of the Brooklyn Bus Redesign specifically mentions reducing subway competition and route redundancy, and the Q59 in Williamsburg is never more than a few blocks away from the  or B62. I would say B32, but the map no longer shows that route either.

is there  any indication the the northern half of b24  being rerouted to go north of queens blvd?

[jaf0519]

2 minutes ago, limitednyc said:

is there  any indication the the northern half of b24  being rerouted to go north of queens blvd?

Based on the map the Greenpoint Ave half looks to head up Greeenpoint, then up Van Dam St to Queens Blvd. The map isn’t clear on what happens after that. 

Should find out tomorrow, since that when the Draft Plan is reportedly due to come out.

[limitednyc]

8 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

Based on the map the Greenpoint Ave half looks to head up Greeenpoint, then up Van Dam St to Queens Blvd. The map isn’t clear on what happens after that. 

Should find out tomorrow, since that when the Draft Plan is reportedly due to come out.

thanks for the info. can't wait till tomorrow when all the blurry line finally get cleared up.

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Let me be clearer.

If the Q27 was cut back to HHE, or if the Q27 was cut back to Jamaica, this new Springfield route (let's call it the Q27a for now) would probably run 10/20 or 15/30 respectively. Maybe even 10/15.

Do you really think Q27's Springfield leg, particularly south of Jamaica, justifies 2.5/7/3/3 headways? IIRC there was a time when the hawk buses didn't even run to Cambria Heights.

Hmm.... So that's where the confusion was - You're basing your talking point from the vantage point of having a relatively significant portion of the Q27 overlap a said "Q27a".... I was looking at it from the vantage point of what this proposal is suggestive of on this map....

Be there as it may, I don't see the MTA running that much service (as sad as that sounds) on said "Q27a" (10/20 or 15/30) - especially if the Q27 were to retain that much coverage along Springfield (down to Jamaica av)..... Do I think said "Q27a" should (run on those headways)? Probably.... Do I think the MTA would? Absolutely not.... Have the Q27 run from Flushing to Jamaica av. via it's current course, anyone [south of 120th] or [north of 48th] with the "Q27a" would be lucky if they got 20 mins. all day....

Let me put it another way, if they were to have that amt. of service dedicated to the "Q27a", then they'd take away even more service from anything running between Flushing & QCC (which is something else I'm going to look at; how much service they plan on giving that extended Q26 to QCC)..... I'm not saying/proclaiming that I'm right, but I believe the game plan is to retain a similar amt. of current Q27 service levels b/w Flushing & QCC (divvied up between the (proposed) extended Q26 & the (proposed) truncated Q27) & take a shitload of service away from  Springfield riders (worse than what you're suggesting or speculating)....

To answer your question - No, I don't believe the Springfield leg warrants current Q27 headways; not in the slightest.... To add to it, nor do I believe that the Q27 should be split - which is the synopsis of my stance....

Edited December 29, 2019 by B35 via Church
split post....

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, jaf0519 said:

They look to be cutting service in the area altogether. From the map shown, the Q59 wont be replaced on Grand St, and the B24 looks to be rerouted from serving Metropolitan Ave, leaving it with no service, to cover Grand St Extension with the Q54 and rerouted Q38.

Also, the “How we’re doing it” section of the Brooklyn Bus Redesign specifically mentions reducing subway competition and route redundancy, and the Q59 in Williamsburg is never more than a few blocks away from the  or B62. I would say B32, but the map no longer shows that route either.

  B32 is toast.... They're cutting back the B62 to Court Sq.

1 hour ago, limitednyc said:

i just hope they are working hand and hand with the Brooklyn planners to replace the q59 in north Williamsburg.

Hate to profess this, but outside of WBP itself, the Q59's patronage in Williamsburg, west of the , has waned pretty significantly..... Far too many people willingly hoofing it out, or biking it out up there.... They barely really take B62's up there like that anymore....

 

[NewFlyer 230]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Let me be clearer.

If the Q27 was cut back to HHE, or if the Q27 was cut back to Jamaica, this new Springfield route (let's call it the Q27a for now) would probably run 10/20 or 15/30 respectively. Maybe even 10/15.

Do you really think Q27's Springfield leg, particularly south of Jamaica, justifies 2.5/7/3/3 headways? IIRC there was a time when the hawk buses didn't even run to Cambria Heights.

I know you weren’t specifically talking to me but personally don’t think the Q27 needs as much service as it gets along Springfield past Jamaica Ave but I suppose there was a reason why service was made so frequently between 120th Ave and Jamaica Ave. If I remember correctly the Q27 used to have every other or every third bus run to Cambria Heights before and now during rush hours just about every bus runs the full route while during middays every other bus runs the full route. Even during the middays Springfield sees better service than the Q77 on Francis Lewis Blvd and the 77 has a direct connection to the  and brings you right to the commercial area of Jamaica. 
I suspect the only reasons why the Q27 is so frequent is because of the high amount of people who transfer between the Q27 and other routes that pass Springfield Blvd and it’s direct service to QCC. A lot of students from Southeast Queens go to QCC, and I think at one point there were complaints that the Q27 wasn’t frequent enough along that part of its route therefore it affected the students who went to that school.

It would be a shame to see service get slashed down there but I think that’s what the MTA wants. A Q27A route just wouldn’t be that frequent at all because it would be separated from the regular Q27 that connects Flushing with Fresh Meadows and the southern part of Bayside. At best I can see 15 to 20 minute headway’s being a thing during rush hours and possibly 20-30 during other times. And as far as late night service, I see that getting cut south of Jamaica Ave if it has any at all. If the regular Q27 gets cut back to Horace Harding or Union Turnpike than there definitely wouldn’t be any on this Q27A. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by NewFlyer 230

[bobtehpanda]

33 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Hmm.... So that's where the confusion was - You're basing your talking point from the vantage point of having a relatively significant portion of the Q27 overlap a said "Q27a".... I was looking at it from the vantage point of what this proposal is suggestive of on this map....

Be there as it may, I don't see the MTA running that much service (as sad as that sounds) on said "Q27a" (10/20 or 15/30) - especially if the Q27 were to retain that much coverage along Springfield (down to Jamaica av)..... Do I think said "Q27a" should (run on those headways)? Probably.... Do I think the MTA would? Absolutely not.... Have the Q27 run from Flushing to Jamaica av. via it's current course, anyone [south of 120th] or [north of 48th] with the "Q27a" would be lucky if they got 20 mins. all day....

Let me put it another way, if they were to have that amt. of service dedicated to the "Q27a", then they'd take away even more service from anything running between Flushing & QCC (which is something else I'm going to look at; how much service they plan on giving that extended Q26 to QCC)..... I'm not saying/proclaiming that I'm right, but I believe the game plan is to retain a similar amt. of current Q27 service levels b/w Flushing & QCC (divvied up between the (proposed) extended Q26 & the (proposed) truncated Q27) & take a shitload of service away from  Springfield riders (worse than what you're suggesting or speculating)....

To answer your question - No, I don't believe the Springfield leg warrants current Q27 headways; not in the slightest.... To add to it, nor do I believe that the Q27 should be split - which is the synopsis of my stance....

I mean, it basically sounds like you agree with the idea, but you don't trust the MTA to do it. Which is fair, because I have very little faith that anything in this new plan is going to be much better.

There were lots of improvements that could be made with the existing bus network, and the biggest one would've been a dedicated offset bus lane like the Q44 has, from the western end of Hillside all the way to Springfield. But that would've made too much sense.

Also, dumb question, but what page is the actual map on? Can't seem to find it.

Edited December 29, 2019 by bobtehpanda

[jaf0519]

12 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I mean, it basically sounds like you agree with the idea, but you don't trust the MTA to do it. Which is fair, because I have very little faith that anything in this new plan is going to be much better.

There were lots of improvements that could be made with the existing bus network, and the biggest one would've been a dedicated offset bus lane like the Q44 has, from the western end of Hillside all the way to Springfield. But that would've made too much sense.

Also, dumb question, but what page is the actual map on? Can't seem to find it.

The actual map hasn’t been published online. The MTA held a public meeting on December 16 at Queens Borough Hall, where they presented a PowerPoint on the redesign plan. It was one of the slides they had, and it was posted on Twitter  by @JimRockaway. The routes aren’t outlined, just the streets buses wil operate on.

[bobtehpanda]

1 minute ago, jaf0519 said:

The actual map hasn’t been published online. The MTA held a public meeting on December 16 at Queens Borough Hall, where they presented a PowerPoint on the redesign plan. It was one of the slides they had, and it was posted on Twitter  by @JimRockaway. The routes aren’t outlined, just the streets buses wil operate on.

Anyone have a link to the actual picture of the slide, then?

[jaf0519]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

Anyone have a link to the actual picture of the slide, then?

https://mobile.twitter.com/JimRockaway/status/1206723003448463365/photo/3

[B35 via Church]

4 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I mean, it basically sounds like you agree with the idea, but you don't trust the MTA to do it. Which is fair, because I have very little faith that anything in this new plan is going to be much better.

There were lots of improvements that could be made with the existing bus network, and the biggest one would've been a dedicated offset bus lane like the Q44 has, from the western end of Hillside all the way to Springfield. But that would've made too much sense.

Also, dumb question, but what page is the actual map on? Can't seem to find it.

Who's idea, yours or the MTA's? If it's the former, well in part, yes.... If it's the latter, absolutely not....

Putting aside projected service levels, I can agree to cutting Q27's back to Jamaica (from Flushing) full time - if it comes with running a route down the rest of Springfield (from LIRR QV), to end up terminating somewhere like Green Acres or something.... However, I vehemently disagree with splitting the Q27...

If you're talking about the map screenshot from the dude that posted it on twitter, here you go