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Union Tpke

Original Archer Service Plan N/G to Jamaica Center, G shuttle to Van Wyck Blvd late nights

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@RR503

The original service pattern planned for Archer Avenue was bizarre. There is not much known about it, but this is what I know. The plan was created about 1985-no signage with the (R) was put up. If any of you know anything about this, let me know. I am trying to get the Archer Avenue lines wikipedia article to become a good article, and would really appreciate a source better than what one person said on NYCTF and subchat. Thanks and enjoy.

Presumed service pattern

(E)(F) to 179th Street

(N)  to Jamaica Center Weekdays, 57th Street or Forest Hills other times

(G) to Forest Hills Weekdays

    to Jamaica Center Evenings and Weekends

   shuttle from Van Wyck Blvd to Jamaica Center, Queens Plaza to Smith/9th Streets late nights

Operations

(G) trains would have relayed using the Jamaica Yard leads. This would have complicated operations in the AM rush.

detail-71-cont.png

Signage

  • At Union Turnpike - Under tape on Northbound local track, one place tape removed (Seen 1986)
  • At Forest Hills
  • At Grand Avenue- Under tape on platform sign on Northbound track reading "Late nights for Parsons/Archer take (F) local to Van Wyck Blvd for (G)"."
  • At Briarwood - G sticker covered 2007-If accurate, this would likely still be there. Might have been for the old (G) to 179th Street service pattern during late nights, which can be seen under a sign at Continental.
  • At 67th Avenue
  • At 75th Avenue

Rollsigns

roll.jpg

roll3.jpg

Sources:

https://www.nyctransitforums.com/topic/21852-archer-avenue/

http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1263688

http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1339776

http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=718514

http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1339776&p=2

http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1152828&p=2

http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=1152828&p=2

Edited by Union Tpke
fix typo
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Glad they changed that plan up, because Kew Gardens would have faced overcrowding issues. 
My only grip about the Archer Ave extension is that the services should have been extended to 168th Street where the original (J) terminated. I feeling like there is a void on that side of Jamaica Ave and the bus routes have to make up for that.  

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3 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Glad they changed that plan up, because Kew Gardens would have faced overcrowding issues. 
My only grip about the Archer Ave extension is that the services should have been extended to 168th Street where the original (J) terminated. I feeling like there is a void on that side of Jamaica Ave and the bus routes have to make up for that.  

Agreed. I heard that the original plan was to send the (J) as far as 190th Street in Hollis while the (E) went on the LIRR right of way to Laurelton. 

The TA execs at the time most of been smoking some good stuff if they thought sending the (G) to Jamaica Center was acceptable, especially given how well-utilized the Archer Ave stations are today. 

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The original (G)(N) Archer plan definitely didn’t make sense, especially given that connecting riders were already traveling substantial distances on the bus. Requiring  them to transfer from the (G)(N) to the (E)(F) for express service would have been creating another Roosevelt Avenue at Union Turnpike. It was much better that they rerouted the (E) to Archer and have one less transfer needed. 

Though it really would have been better if they could have built even just one more stop at Merrick Blvd to connect with the many bus routes that run through there. 

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I shudder to think of what would have happened at 75 Ave under this plan. (E)s or (F)s would have had to merge with (N) there -- that'd have been chaos.

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(G) from Smith-9 to Jamaica (N) from Coney to Jamaica are loops to outdo the  (M)! Those are bizarre service patterns if I've ever heard of them, but I sort of get a kick out of it. 

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7 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

(G) from Smith-9 to Jamaica (N) from Coney to Jamaica are loops to outdo the  (M)! Those are bizarre service patterns if I've ever heard of them, but I sort of get a kick out of it. 

Yup. I would really love to see the signs for this!

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4 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

@Union Tpke JFYI but I believe Photobucket has a limit to how much data you can share for a time period.

You can only image host 25MB of photos now IIRC. If you have more than that, the stupid watermark thing comes up until you take some down or something. Real PITA.

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On 9/5/2019 at 5:21 PM, Union Tpke said:

@RR503

Signage

  • At Union Turnpike - Under tape on Northbound local track, one place tape removed (Seen 1986)
  • At Forest Hills
  • At Grand Avenue- Under tape on platform sign on Northbound track reading "Late nights for Parsons/Archer take (F) local to Van Wyck Blvd for (G)"."
  • At Briarwood - G sticker covered 2007-If accurate, this would likely still be there. Might have been for the old (G) to 179th Street service pattern during late nights, which can be seen under a sign at Continental.
  • At 67th Avenue
  • At 75th Avenue

p=2

Let's not forget the (E)(F)(G)(N) sign on the Interboro (Jackie Robinson) Pkwy exits. which are unused and darkened, (forgot if the signs are still visible).

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1 hour ago, Eric B said:

Let's not forget the (E)(F)(G)(N) sign on the Interboro (Jackie Robinson) Pkwy exits. which are unused and darkened, (forgot if the signs are still visible).

Are there any pictures of that sign? I have looked while passing by while going under via Union Tpke, but never have enough time to see the sign. There is never traffic on Union Tpke under Queens Boulevard.

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11 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

@Union Tpke JFYI but I believe Photobucket has a limit to how much data you can share for a time period.

Those were someone else's images, but for that reason, I put them in my Flickr:

16381759878_17e139cdb3.jpgUntitled by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

15949229843_bbe94b251a.jpgUntitled by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

 

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3 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Are there any pictures of that sign? I have looked while passing by while going under via Union Tpke, but never have enough time to see the sign. There is never traffic on Union Tpke under Queens Boulevard.

The sign on the west side is decently visible (above the set of doors), but I haven't seen any such signs on the east side (which has the glass block wall). In traffic on either Union Turnpike or the Parkway, it probably wouldn't be too hard to take a photo, although you'd need a camera that's good in low light situations.

Edited by P3F

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1 hour ago, P3F said:

The sign on the west side is decently visible (above the set of doors), but I haven't seen any such signs on the east side (which has the glass block wall). In traffic on either Union Turnpike or the Parkway, it probably wouldn't be too hard to take a photo, although you'd need a camera that's good in low light situations.

I can see the outlines of the sign, and part of it where it says Union Turnpike, when in a car, but not much more. Since there never is traffic there, I can't take a photo of the sign.

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On 10/2/2019 at 6:58 AM, Eric B said:

Let's not forget the (E)(F)(G)(N) sign on the Interboro (Jackie Robinson) Pkwy exits. which are unused and darkened, (forgot if the signs are still visible).

A friend of mine got some nice pictures of the sign, which also dates the closure of the entrance.

http://indsecondsystem.weebly.com/union-tpke-kew-gardens.html

img-9892_orig.jpg

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3 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

I always thought I was imagining the (E)(F)(G)(N) when driving by.

I have been in there dozens of times passing by in my family's car but was never able to see the E F G N sign that I had heard was there.

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That's fascinating. I never knew about this. That's off the highway proper, entirely inaccessible on foot? Judging by the font with the cut-e semi-Akzidenz/Helvetica, it looks like this is a 1985-1986 sign, which adds up given the switch in 1987.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

I have been in there dozens of times passing by in my family's car but was never able to see the E F G N sign that I had heard was there.

nice. the (E)(F)(G)(N) sign there is a rare historic sign that still lingers even to this day- a reminder of what could have been over three decades ago. sadly there aren't much signs from this era still standing in the system today (examples i can think of: the jamaica-bound (E)(F) sign at Forest Hills displaying old fonts, and also a (7) sign at woodside).

9 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

That's fascinating. I never knew about this. That's off the highway proper, entirely inaccessible on foot? Judging by the font with the cut-e semi-Akzidenz/Helvetica, it looks like this is a 1985-1986 sign, which adds up given the switch in 1987.

getting a shot of it is possible, but very hard to do. it is underneath Union Turnpike, alongside the jackie robinson, so getting there on foot is out of the question. the only chance of getting a picture would be to be in a car when there is a lot of traffic and then snap the pic when you are perfectly aligned, but you'd need good cameras and lighting. 

Edited by Coney Island Av

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8 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

nice. the (E)(F)(G)(N) sign there is a rare historic sign that still lingers even to this day- a reminder of what could have been over three decades ago. sadly there aren't much signs from this era still standing in the system today. 

getting a shot of it is possible, but very hard to do. it is underneath Union Turnpike, alongside the jackie robinson, so getting there on foot is out of the question. the only chance of getting a picture would be to be in a car when there is a lot of traffic and then snap the pic when you are perfectly aligned, but you'd need good cameras and lighting. 

Gotcha. That sounds like a two-person task, and a tricky one at that. Impressive this guy got the photo.

For what it's worth, that's only a 1985-1986 sign, and there are actually many signs left from that era – particularly along the (L), for some reason. There are older signs from the early-1980s left in some places, and possibly a few from the late-1970s, though they're being removed. The last ones from the 1960s tend to be maintenance rooms/end-of-platform warning signs, and of course there are some original 1930s signs scattered around between the tracks in varying degrees of poor condition. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

I have been in there dozens of times passing by in my family's car but was never able to see the E F G N sign that I had heard was there.

I saw it from the Jackie while heading to my daughters’ friend’s birthday party in Middle Village this past November. But I recall seeing another (E)(F)(G)(N) sign somewhere in the mezzanine back in 2001 when I went for an interview at an employment agency in Kew Gardens.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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16 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I saw it from the Jackie while heading to my daughters’ friend’s birthday party in Middle Village this past November. But I recall seeing another (E)(F)(G)(N) sign somewhere in the mezzanine back in 2001 when I went for an interview at an employment agency in Kew Gardens.

A sign lasted in the mezzanine until 2001! Yikes. Which of the two mezzanines?

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Posted (edited)
On 3/16/2020 at 1:31 PM, MHV9218 said:

That's fascinating. I never knew about this. That's off the highway proper, entirely inaccessible on foot? Judging by the font with the cut-e semi-Akzidenz/Helvetica, it looks like this is a 1985-1986 sign, which adds up given the switch in 1987.

The Jackie Robinson and Union Turnpike run alongside each other under Queens Blvd.

So take this with a grain of salt because there isn't much about what those exits were used for, but I've heard (and believe) that those used to be inline bus stops.

It'd be nice if the MTA, if it ever builds subways out past the current ends of lines in the outer borough, could build transfer facilities that involved buses within fare control.

Edited by bobtehpanda

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1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The Jackie Robinson and Union Turnpike run alongside each other under Queens Blvd.

So take this with a grain of salt because there isn't much about what those exits were used for, but I've heard (and believe) that those used to be inline bus stops.

It'd be nice if the MTA, if it ever builds subways out past the current ends of lines in the outer borough, could build transfer facilities that involved buses within fare control.

I'm not sure where I read this, maybe Wikipedia, but apparently those exits used to be car drop-off areas; they were closed due to the delays caused by cars merging back onto the road.

In theory, it wouldn't be too complicated to convert the westbound one into a bus stop. It's hard to judge size from Google Street View, but you could probably fit 2 to 4 buses into the area, arranged into bays. Q46 buses would pull in, drop off, pick up, and then pull out. Then, turn onto the other side of Union Turnpike at Park Lane, stop at the Q37 stop for bus connections, and continue along the normal route.

In practice, it is doubtful the underground area could contain enough buses to make this operation work well, given the Q46's frequency.

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