East Bronx Local Lines to Remain Unchanged in Redesign; No BxM17

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Good, and the routing I am suggesting is consistent with both the MTA's position and that of the community. It maintains access to the destinations the community has been emphasising (Montefiore, Bronx HS of Science, Lehman College, etc)

And aside from the people that were at the event (it wasn't exactly a packed house), what exactly is the position of the community?

[checkmatechamp13]

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And aside from the people that were at the event (it wasn't exactly a packed house), what exactly is the position of the community?

Regarding this particular route, the position is that the connection between Riverdale and those destinations is important and should be maintained. The current Bx10 maintains it in one way. My proposal maintains it in a different way. The Bx10 would also still serve Tracey Towers (and maintain the connection to Fordham Plaza currently provided by the Bx28)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Regarding this particular route, the position is that the connection between Riverdale and those destinations is important and should be maintained. The current Bx10 maintains it in one way. My proposal maintains it in a different way. The Bx10 would also still serve Tracey Towers (and maintain the connection to Fordham Plaza currently provided by the Bx28)

I would say that isn't quite the case. Many expected more. Quick frankly the Bx10 is lackluster.

[checkmatechamp13]

14 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I would say that isn't quite the case. Many expected more. Quick frankly the Bx10 is lackluster.

OK...and this would give them the "more" that they expected by actually straightening the route while maintaining access to those destinations.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

OK...and this would give them the "more" that they expected by actually straightening the route while maintaining access to those destinations.

We wanted the route broken up, not straightened, and we wanted things like the Bx1 extended to 246th. I'm sure you knew all of this though from the meetings you attended.  Rather condescending to come in and try to tell people what they want when you attend a few meetings.

[checkmatechamp13]

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

We wanted the route broken up, not straightened, and we wanted things like the Bx1 extended to 246th. I'm sure you knew all of this though from the meetings you attended.  Rather condescending to come in and try to tell people what they want when you attend a few meetings.

(**checks proposal which splits the route east of Paul Avenue**) Looks broken up to me.

You said it yourself, splitting it in half would end up cutting off people on both sides, both those in Riverdale seeking to reach Montefiore Hospital (and Lehman College/Bronx HS of Science), and those in the Norwood area seeking to reach Riverdale.

OK, so they want the Bx1 extended instead of ending at the bottom of the hill....so I missed one proposal...doesn't make what I said incorrect...

[Future ENY OP]

@Via Garibaldi 8  got a question. I may not be Riverdale savvy. However, could a Bx1 use a extension along Riverdale Avenue to W. 261? Only reason I ask is through my travels through Riverdale I’ve always thought the Avenue could use additional service. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

@Via Garibaldi 8  got a question. I may not be Riverdale savvy. However, could a Bx1 use a extension along Riverdale Avenue to W. 261? Only reason I ask is through my travels through Riverdale I’ve always thought the Avenue could use additional service. 

There really isn't a need to have the Bx10, Bx7 and Bx1 go to 263rd.  From 246th and Henry Hudson it's a 5 minute ride. 10 minutes tops. That's why the Bx20 terminates at 246th and HHP. The Bx1 would provide help to the Bx7 particularly for Riverdale and 236th and Henry Hudson Parkway and 239th which are two big stops. Instead of having riders flagged in the morning, people would be able to get on.

[Future ENY OP]

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

There really isn't a need to have the Bx10, Bx7 and Bx1 go to 263rd.  From 246th and Henry Hudson it's a 5 minute ride. 10 minutes tops. That's why the Bx20 terminates at 246th and HHP. The Bx1 would provide help to the Bx7 particularly for Riverdale and 236th and Henry Hudson Parkway and 239th which are two big stops. Instead of having riders flagged in the morning, people would be able to get on.

Ok... Makes sense. 

[dkupf]

Here is the open letter that I sent to the MTA.  (I will send the maps separately.)  Let's discuss.

=============================================================================

Dear NYCT Operations Planning:              

                While the Bronx has robust bus service, transit deserts remain, especially the neighborhoods of Baychester, Edenwald, and Unionport.  The Co-Op City Bus Service Study, in my opinion, didn’t go far enough to address neighborhood concerns regarding intraborough travel.

                For the Bronx, the goals should be:

·         Restructure service to make limited-access highways less of a barrier between neighborhoods;

·         Address bus service concerns in certain neighborhoods; and

·         Encourage interborough, intraborough, and cross-county travel.

 

                I think that I have crafted low-cost alternatives that addresses such concerns.  For the first point:

·         Bx16 – Operate via 233 St instead of Nereid Av (see attached map); and

·         Bx29 – Extend from Co-Op City to Wakefield via the neighborhoods of Baychester and Edenwald.  (See attached map for details.)

 

For the second point:

·         New Route Bx25 – Operate between Co-Op City and Castle Hill Park via Gun Hill Rd, Eastchester Rd, Waters Pl, Westchester Av, and Zerega Av.  Operate daily 5AM – 1AM, but north of Westchester Sq Weekdays 6AM-midnight, Saturdays 7AM-midnight, Sundays 8AM-11PM.  (See attached maps for details.)

·         Bx31 – Reduce service to compensate for the addition of the “new” Bx25.

 

And, for the third point:

·         New Route Bx80 SBS – New SBS route between Fordham Plaza and LaGuardia Airport via the current Bx41 SBS routing, then via 3 Av, stopping at E 138 St on 3 Av (northbound) or Alexander Av (southbound), the RFK Bridge, and the current M60 SBS routing;

·         Bx30 – Discontinue, and:

          o   Westchester County Bee-Line 52 – Extend via Conner St and the current Bx30 routing into Co-Op City (add Sunday service) with full boarding and alighting privileges within the New York City limits (see attached map); and

          o   Use the savings to pay Westchester County to add service to their Routes 52 (newly extended into Co-Op City) and 60/61 (via Pelham Pkwy and Boston Rd) within the New York City limits and within the purview of the Bus Service Loading Guidelines;

·         Bx34 – Extend to the Mount Vernon East Metro-North Station (see attached map); and

·         Westchester County Bee-Line 54 – Discontinue.

 

                For the first point, the revised Bx16 would make the route simpler and easier to understand, whereas the Bx29 extension would be used to fill the void, as well as open up City Island to a significant part of the borough.

                For the second point, the creation of the Bx25 would significantly reduce three-legged trips between Co-Op City and southern Bronx.  Major trip generators on the route include the Bronx State Hospital, Hutchinson Metro Center, a Fed-Ex facility, a NYC Dept. of Sanitation district office, and the MTA Zerega Avenue Maintenance & Training Facility.  For the latter, currently, staff have to either walk almost ½ mile from the nearest bus stop or drive to work.  This seems, in my opinion, hypocritical to MTA’s goals.

                And, for the third point, the proposed Bx80 SBS would reduce interborough travel times significantly, as current riders would no longer have to travel via Manhattan in order to go to Queens.  Such travel time savings would also encourage ridership.  The Bx80 SBS currently remains unfunded due to other priorities.  However, if the NYCDOT unilaterally decides to add fare collection equipment at East 138 Street, you would be hard-pressed to implement the service.

                Regarding the elimination of the Bx30, for one mass transit operator to pay another mass transit operator in order to add service on the other operator’s bus routes has never been tried by the MTA, though I’m sure that this is done elsewhere in the USA.  (But, in Canada, in the Toronto metropolitan area, Brampton Transit, Mississauga Transit, and York Region Transit pay the Toronto Transportation Commission to operate some bus service in their respective areas.)  In this case, it would require cooperation between the MTA and Westchester County Bee-Line.

                For the last two subpoints, these were originally proposed by you in 1989; the change was expected to, at least, pay for itself.  But Woodlawn’s concerns and institutional issues scuttled the proposal.

                The fact is that service can’t be added without the elimination of some service.  But the service planners don’t use these services, and are, therefore, either unaware or don’t care about specific community needs.

                I’m sure that evaluating the full set of bus service proposals for the Bronx will show that they are up to your standards.  I ask you to analyze them objectively and with an open mind.

                Thank you.

 

Sincerely,

David Kupferberg

E-mail: dkupf@yahoo.com

[Lex]

What did I just read.

[B35 via Church]

Why the f*** are you sending the MTA a letter that suggests altering bus routes that they have zero control over

[dkupf]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

Why the f*** are you sending the MTA a letter that suggests altering bus routes that they have zero control over

For all route adjustments, we cannot look at routes in isolation; they are connected.

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, dkupf said:

For all route adjustments, we cannot look at routes in isolation; they are connected.

Yes, of course.

Next time I have an issue with my Chase account, I'll be sure to call Citibank.... You know, since they're both banks & all....

[dkupf]

3 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Yes, of course.

Next time I have an issue with my Chase account, I'll be sure to call Citibank.... You know, since they're both banks & all....

Tell that to Jarrett Walker, not me.

[dkupf]

More than 41 years ago, ten routes were changed in southern Brooklyn.  Beforehand, each route had no better than a 15-minute headway.

The Redesign approach works.  Plain and simple.

Edited November 25, 2019 by dkupf
clarity

[B35 via Church]

33 minutes ago, dkupf said:

Tell that to Jarrett Walker, not me.

To hell with whoever the hell that is.... I'm directing my remarks at YOU, Mr. "we cannot look at routes in isolation; they are connected."...

The gall that you, David Kupferberg, suggest that the MTA have Bee-Line 1] discontinue a bus route & 2] extend one of their bus routes - especially when the MTA can't clean up its own god damn mess... Good job making a mockery out of bus riders with this foolish letter you decided to scribe & send off....

28 minutes ago, dkupf said:

Almost 41 years ago, ten routes were changed in southern Brooklyn.  Beforehand, they had no better than a 15-minute headway.

The Redesign approach works.  Plain and simple.

Nobody's contesting the general notion of the network needing a redesign.... Stop deflecting.

Edited November 25, 2019 by B35 via Church

[MysteriousBtrain]

41 minutes ago, dkupf said:

More than 41 years ago, ten routes were changed in southern Brooklyn.  Beforehand, each route had no better than a 15-minute headway.

The Redesign approach works.  Plain and simple.

I see. Now I'm convinced to email Andy Byford to get him to recombine the N20G/H, give Fordham and Boston road summer season access to Rye Playland called the W90 and add a new SIJ1 and SIJ2 service operated by NJT between Eltingville and Hoboken/Newark respectively.

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I see. Now I'm convinced to email Andy Byford to get him to recombine the N20G/H, give Fordham and Boston road summer season access to Rye Playland called the W90 and add a new SIJ1 and SIJ2 service operated by NJT between Eltingville and Hoboken/Newark respectively.

Tell Johnnie Walker that, not him !

[WestFarms36]

2 hours ago, dkupf said:

More than 41 years ago, ten routes were changed in southern Brooklyn.  Beforehand, each route had no better than a 15-minute headway.

The Redesign approach works.  Plain and simple.

Sure, I'll just complain to Andy Byford as to why my Credit Score is shit.

[dkupf]

Quote

To hell with whoever the hell that is.... I'm directing my remarks at YOU, Mr. "we cannot look at routes in isolation; they are connected."...

The gall that you, David Kupferberg, suggest that the MTA have Bee-Line 1] discontinue a bus route & 2] extend one of their bus routes - especially when the MTA can't clean up its own god damn mess... Good job making a mockery out of bus riders with this foolish letter you decided to scribe & send off....

If it works in the Toronto area, it could work here.  After all, they have more service per capita than in NYC.  But nothing happens unless we try it.

Mr. Walker's company handled many bus service redesigns, e.g., Miami, Cleveland, San Jose, and Dublin.  For Dublin, the Draft Plan reduced the amount of bus routes from 130 to 100, but the service was simpler and easier to understand.  The Final Plan incorporated public feedback in which additional routes were added and others were changed.

Please read his posts regarding Dublin from 10/22/2019 and 9/23/2018 on https://humantransit.org/

BTW, did you go to the https://humantransit.org/ website?  If not, please do so.

Edited November 25, 2019 by dkupf
none

[dkupf]

I just submitted the maps from that open letter to the website.

I await the approval.  But they are here, as an attachment.

Re: East Bronx Local Lines to Remain Unchanged in Redesign; No BxM17

[dkupf]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

To hell with whoever the hell that is.... I'm directing my remarks at YOU, Mr. "we cannot look at routes in isolation; they are connected."...

The gall that you, David Kupferberg, suggest that the MTA have Bee-Line 1] discontinue a bus route & 2] extend one of their bus routes - especially when the MTA can't clean up its own god damn mess... Good job making a mockery out of bus riders with this foolish letter you decided to scribe & send off....

Nobody's contesting the general notion of the network needing a redesign.... Stop deflecting.

I apologize for being terse.

But Mr. Walker, generally, knows what he is talking about. 

In fact, I distributed many copies of the open letter to people at the Open Houses.  I received nothing but positive feedback.

Besides, any route would be better than the Bee-Line 54.

Edited November 25, 2019 by dkupf
added word

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 hours ago, dkupf said:

Here is the open letter that I sent to the MTA.  (I will send the maps separately.)  Let's discuss.

=============================================================================

Dear NYCT Operations Planning:              

                While the Bronx has robust bus service, transit deserts remain, especially the neighborhoods of Baychester, Edenwald, and Unionport.  The Co-Op City Bus Service Study, in my opinion, didn’t go far enough to address neighborhood concerns regarding intraborough travel.

                For the Bronx, the goals should be:

·         Restructure service to make limited-access highways less of a barrier between neighborhoods;

·         Address bus service concerns in certain neighborhoods; and

·         Encourage interborough, intraborough, and cross-county travel.

 

                I think that I have crafted low-cost alternatives that addresses such concerns.  For the first point:

·         Bx16 – Operate via 233 St instead of Nereid Av (see attached map); and

·         Bx29 – Extend from Co-Op City to Wakefield via the neighborhoods of Baychester and Edenwald.  (See attached map for details.)

 

For the second point:

·         New Route Bx25 – Operate between Co-Op City and Castle Hill Park via Gun Hill Rd, Eastchester Rd, Waters Pl, Westchester Av, and Zerega Av.  Operate daily 5AM – 1AM, but north of Westchester Sq Weekdays 6AM-midnight, Saturdays 7AM-midnight, Sundays 8AM-11PM.  (See attached maps for details.)

·         Bx31 – Reduce service to compensate for the addition of the “new” Bx25.

 

And, for the third point:

·         New Route Bx80 SBS – New SBS route between Fordham Plaza and LaGuardia Airport via the current Bx41 SBS routing, then via 3 Av, stopping at E 138 St on 3 Av (northbound) or Alexander Av (southbound), the RFK Bridge, and the current M60 SBS routing;

·         Bx30 – Discontinue, and:

          o   Westchester County Bee-Line 52 – Extend via Conner St and the current Bx30 routing into Co-Op City (add Sunday service) with full boarding and alighting privileges within the New York City limits (see attached map); and

          o   Use the savings to pay Westchester County to add service to their Routes 52 (newly extended into Co-Op City) and 60/61 (via Pelham Pkwy and Boston Rd) within the New York City limits and within the purview of the Bus Service Loading Guidelines;

·         Bx34 – Extend to the Mount Vernon East Metro-North Station (see attached map); and

·         Westchester County Bee-Line 54 – Discontinue.

 

                For the first point, the revised Bx16 would make the route simpler and easier to understand, whereas the Bx29 extension would be used to fill the void, as well as open up City Island to a significant part of the borough.

                For the second point, the creation of the Bx25 would significantly reduce three-legged trips between Co-Op City and southern Bronx.  Major trip generators on the route include the Bronx State Hospital, Hutchinson Metro Center, a Fed-Ex facility, a NYC Dept. of Sanitation district office, and the MTA Zerega Avenue Maintenance & Training Facility.  For the latter, currently, staff have to either walk almost ½ mile from the nearest bus stop or drive to work.  This seems, in my opinion, hypocritical to MTA’s goals.

                And, for the third point, the proposed Bx80 SBS would reduce interborough travel times significantly, as current riders would no longer have to travel via Manhattan in order to go to Queens.  Such travel time savings would also encourage ridership.  The Bx80 SBS currently remains unfunded due to other priorities.  However, if the NYCDOT unilaterally decides to add fare collection equipment at East 138 Street, you would be hard-pressed to implement the service.

                Regarding the elimination of the Bx30, for one mass transit operator to pay another mass transit operator in order to add service on the other operator’s bus routes has never been tried by the MTA, though I’m sure that this is done elsewhere in the USA.  (But, in Canada, in the Toronto metropolitan area, Brampton Transit, Mississauga Transit, and York Region Transit pay the Toronto Transportation Commission to operate some bus service in their respective areas.)  In this case, it would require cooperation between the MTA and Westchester County Bee-Line.

                For the last two subpoints, these were originally proposed by you in 1989; the change was expected to, at least, pay for itself.  But Woodlawn’s concerns and institutional issues scuttled the proposal.

                The fact is that service can’t be added without the elimination of some service.  But the service planners don’t use these services, and are, therefore, either unaware or don’t care about specific community needs.

                I’m sure that evaluating the full set of bus service proposals for the Bronx will show that they are up to your standards.  I ask you to analyze them objectively and with an open mind.

                Thank you.

 

Sincerely,

David Kupferberg

E-mail: dkupf@yahoo.com

Yes, let’s discuss. Do you use any of these bus lines, or did you just look at a map? 

[B35 via Church]

9 hours ago, dkupf said:

If it works in the Toronto area, it could work here.  After all, they have more service per capita than in NYC.  But nothing happens unless we try it.

Mr. Walker's company handled many bus service redesigns, e.g., Miami, Cleveland, San Jose, and Dublin.  For Dublin, the Draft Plan reduced the amount of bus routes from 130 to 100, but the service was simpler and easier to understand.  The Final Plan incorporated public feedback in which additional routes were added and others were changed.

Please read his posts regarding Dublin from 10/22/2019 and 9/23/2018 on https://humantransit.org/

BTW, did you go to the https://humantransit.org/ website?  If not, please do so.

7 hours ago, dkupf said:

I apologize for being terse.

But Mr. Walker, generally, knows what he is talking about. 

In fact, I distributed many copies of the open letter to people at the Open Houses.  I received nothing but positive feedback.

Besides, any route would be better than the Bee-Line 54.

You should apologize for being dense.

You come on here & paste this letter under the pretense of wanting a discussion - However, when you're faced with the counterargument (The MTA & Bee-Line being completely separate entities) regarding one facet of what you're suggesting, you resort to:

• dismissing the argument by minimizing it ("we cannot look at routes in isolation; they are connected.")
• setting up a strawman argument ("The Redesign approach works.  Plain and simple.")
  • debunking it (bringing up other cities that benefited from redesigning their bus systems)
• deflecting (by bringing up some Jarrett Walker & introducing some website that has squat to do with anything)

Disagreeing with your specific plan isn't equivalent to disagreeing with the general idea of a network redesign.... The conflation of the two is the disingenuous premise you're running with & it is a fallacious one.

We all can have the belief that the network should be more unified between separate entities & jurisdictions, but simply put, the real world does not operate like that.... It's enough that Bee-Line implemented the Metrocard system onto its buses as a method of payment.... There is nothing saying that Bee Line, on top of that, has to alter its routes to mitigate the MTA's inadequacies - Regardless of however many people you claim to have handed out your letter to & having received nothing but positive feedback due to it.... A group of ignoramus' giving you unwarranted high praises & support, does not trump, or supersede the fact that the MTA & Bee Line are separate entities....

Any route being so-called better than the BL-54 is not the MTA's issue.

Edited November 25, 2019 by B35 via Church