East Bronx Local Lines to Remain Unchanged in Redesign; No BxM17

[Lawrence St]

12 hours ago, dkupf said:

Here is the open letter that I sent to the MTA.  (I will send the maps separately.)  Let's discuss.

What does MTA have to do with ANY of Bee Line's routes? The 52, 60, 61 and 62 all serve a different ridership base for WESTCHESTER. The only reason why the 60 and 61 are open door in the Bronx is because there is no other bus line that serves Boston Post Road, but thats going to change with the Bx30.

[B35 via Church]

39 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Yes, let’s discuss. Do you use any of these bus lines, or did you just look at a map? 

Lol....

When you have someone literally suggesting that the MTA discontinue one of its bus routes & have the fiscal savings transferred over to Bee Line for some anticipatory dual benefit, the merit of whatever individual ideas that's being posed, to me, is irrelevant....

With that said, I wouldn't doubt for a second that this is yet another exercise at intellectualizing the connecting of dots on a map.

19 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

What does MTA have to do with ANY of Bee Line's routes? The 52, 60, 61 and 62 all serve a different ridership base for WESTCHESTER. The only reason why the 60 and 61 are open door in the Bronx is because there is no other bus line that serves Boston Post Road, but thats going to change with the Bx30.

...and the BL-60/61/62 will remain running along Boston rd for the benefit of Westchester county...
Something that's apparently lost on Mr. sackrider there.

Edited November 25, 2019 by B35 via Church

[dkupf]

13 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

You should apologize for being dense.

You come on here & paste this letter under the pretense of wanting a discussion - However, when you're faced with the counterargument (The MTA & Bee-Line being completely separate entities) regarding one facet of what you're suggesting, you resort to:

• dismissing the argument by minimizing it ("we cannot look at routes in isolation; they are connected.")
• setting up a strawman argument ("The Redesign approach works.  Plain and simple.")
  • debunking it (bringing up other cities that benefited from redesigning their bus systems)
• deflecting (by bringing up some Jarrett Walker & introducing some website that has squat to do with anything)

Disagreeing with your specific plan isn't equivalent to disagreeing with the general idea of a network redesign.... The conflation of the two is the disingenuous premise you're running with & it is a fallacious one.

We all can have the belief that the network should be more unified between separate entities & jurisdictions, but simply put, the real world does not operate like that.... It's enough that Bee-Line implemented the Metrocard system onto its buses as a method of payment.... There is nothing saying that Bee Line, on top of that, has to alter its routes to mitigate the MTA's inadequacies - Regardless of however many people you claim to have handed out your letter to & having received nothing but positive feedback due to it.... A group of ignoramus' giving you unwarranted high praises & support, does not trump, or supersede the fact that the MTA & Bee Line are separate entities....

Any route being so-called better than the BL-54 is not the MTA's issue.

The intent for the Bx34 extension was to connect Wakefield and Woodlawn with 24-hour local bus service.

Implementation of all redesign proposals must be based on community input.  Of course, there has to be compromise and negotiation, and no plan will satisfy everyone.  The plan that’s finally decided upon mustn’t be dictated by a higher authority.  Communities, however, must also be willing to support plans that are for the greater good, and not take a parochial approach.  And, communities that are virtually isolated from others must not block attempts to improve access to their communities by wanting to stay isolated and automobile-dependent.  If this is what they want, then they should not live in New York City.

That being said, the Final Plan fails to resolve the issues for the many transit deserts that exist in The Bronx, e.g., the Throgs Neck Bridge, West 233 Street, and southern Zerega Avenue.  The Final Plan also creates new transit deserts, e.g. Mount Sinai.

That is why the BxM2 route cannot and must not change.

[dkupf]

13 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol....

When you have someone literally suggesting that the MTA discontinue one of its bus routes & have the fiscal savings transferred over to Bee Line for some anticipatory dual benefit, the merit of whatever individual ideas that's being posed, to me, is irrelevant....

With that said, I wouldn't doubt for a second that this is yet another exercise at intellectualizing the connecting of dots on a map.

...and the BL-60/61/62 will remain running along Boston rd for the benefit of Westchester county...
Something that's apparently lost on Mr. sackrider there.

If so, then the only changes to my open letter would be for the Bee-Line 60 & 61 to have a closed-door policy, and the Bx30 to operate between Fordham Plaza and Ropes Avenue.

[Lawrence St]

4 minutes ago, dkupf said:

If so, then the only changes to my open letter would be for the Bee-Line 60 & 61 to have a closed-door policy, and the Bx30 to operate between Fordham Plaza and Ropes Avenue.

There are currently no plans to convert the 60/61/62 to closed door in the Bronx. Many people utilize it along Boston Post Road, and there's simply no point in reducing service just because theres one other bus route running.

[NBTA]

5 minutes ago, dkupf said:

If so, then the only changes to my open letter would be for the Bee-Line 60 & 61 to have a closed-door policy, and the Bx30 to operate between Fordham Plaza and Ropes Avenue.

We aren't in an episode of Spongebob, wake up, you fail to realize that Bee-Line and the MTA are two different companies right? Having both the Bx30 and the BL-60/61/62 be Boarding and Alighting, will make life for people going to Co-Op via Boston Road, or to Westchester, from Fordham, a whole hell of a lot easier (even though I disagree with the terminal location).

[dkupf]

I agree.

The open-door policy began in the early 1980's due to local community pressure.  And when it was implemented, Boston Road ridership skyrocketed at a time when service was being cut to the bone.

Nowadays, Westchester does not care about Bronx riders; their service is now being cut.

Seems like it has come full circle.

[WestFarms36]

On 11/24/2019 at 9:58 PM, dkupf said:

For all route adjustments, we cannot look at routes in isolation; they are connected.

Well I'll just put it in the famously highlighted words of Benito Mussolini...
"It's good to trust others but, not to do so is much better."

Basically in other words to set it in a way that you understand...

Well of course, we art ign'rant to not realizeth yond connectivity is key.  Aft'r all we shouldst maketh sure we consid'r sf muni, king county metro, lacmta, foothill transit, miami dade transit, mbta, and ttc in the city of new y'rk.  Shalt i thanketh thee f'r opening our eyes.  Unf'rtunately thee just madeth us seeth how f**king abh'rrent thy proposal hast becometh

For those who don't understand Shakespeare:

Well of course, we are ignorant to not realize that connectivity is key. After all we should make sure we consider SF Muni, King County Metro, LACMTA, Foothill Transit, Miami Dade Transit, MBTA, and TTC in the City of New York. Shall I thank you for opening our eyes. Unfortunately you just made us see how f**king abhorrent your proposal has become.

[MysteriousBtrain]

22 minutes ago, dkupf said:

That being said, the Final Plan fails to resolve the issues for the many transit deserts that exist in The Bronx, e.g., the Throgs Neck Bridge

Hmm. What bronx route has business in using the Throgs Neck bridge just for connectivity purposes?

[B35 via Church]

8 minutes ago, dkupf said:

The intent for the Bx34 extension was to connect Wakefield and Woodlawn with 24-hour local bus service.

Implementation of all redesign proposals must be based on community input.  Of course, there has to be compromise and negotiation, and no plan will satisfy everyone.  The plan that’s finally decided upon mustn’t be dictated by a higher authority.  Communities, however, must also be willing to support plans that are for the greater good, and not take a parochial approach.  And, communities that are virtually isolated from others must not block attempts to improve access to their communities by wanting to stay isolated and automobile-dependent.  If this is what they want, then they should not live in New York City.

That being said, the Final Plan fails to resolve the issues for the many transit deserts that exist in The Bronx, e.g., the Throgs Neck Bridge, West 233 Street, and southern Zerega Avenue.  The Final Plan also creates new transit deserts, e.g. Mount Sinai.

That is why the BxM2 route cannot and must not change.

Don't know whatever the hell it is you're babbling about here, but yet & still, none of this fails to address the fact that the Bee Line bus system does not exist to benefit the MTA & vice versa.....

4 minutes ago, dkupf said:

If so, then the only changes to my open letter would be for the Bee-Line 60 & 61 to have a closed-door policy, and the Bx30 to operate between Fordham Plaza and Ropes Avenue.

The "changes" to your open letter should consist of it being balled up & chucked into the recycle bin.

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

There are currently no plans to convert the 60/61/62 to closed door in the Bronx. Many people utilize it along Boston Post Road, and there's simply no point in reducing service just because theres one other bus route running.

Even if it does end up running closed door in the Bronx, Bronxites will STILL use it to get to New Roc' & points north

2 minutes ago, dkupf said:

...Nowadays, Westchester does not care about Bronx riders; their service is now being cut.

Seems like it has come full circle.

This isn't about coming to any full circle..... Bee-Line has its own problems, the MTA has its own problems....

Simple concept.

 

 

[dkupf]

18 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The "changes" to your open letter should consist of it being balled up & chucked into the recycle bin.

I attended most of the open houses.  No more than 25 people showed up for each of them.

Except for the one in Co-Op City; more than 2,000 people attended.

Did you attend any of them?

What are your ideas for The Bronx?

And, I want concrete ones, not negative replies.

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, dkupf said:

I attended most of the open houses.  No more than 25 people showed up for each of them.

Except for the one in Co-Op City; more than 2,000 people attended.

Did you attend any of them?

What are your ideas for The Bronx?

And, I want concrete ones, not negative replies.

 

I don't give a rat's ass what the f*** you want..... But to answer your little questions here:

* No, I didn't attend any of those meetings.....

* I'm not posting any ideas in this particular thread; it's done gone off the rails enough.... Any critiques/suggestions of mine regarding this impending Bronx bus redesign plan have been made in older threads on here.... In short, start gravedigging or kick rocks.....

[Lawrence St]

27 minutes ago, dkupf said:

I attended most of the open houses.  No more than 25 people showed up for each of them.

Except for the one in Co-Op City; more than 2,000 people attended.

Did you attend any of them?

What are your ideas for The Bronx?

And, I want concrete ones, not negative replies.

This is not the time nor the place to talk about this, we have a proposal thread for a reason.

[dkupf]

25 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

* No, I didn't attend any of those meetings.....

Therefore, my open letter stands with modifications.😁

[MysteriousBtrain]

9 hours ago, dkupf said:

I attended most of the open houses.  No more than 25 people showed up for each of them.

Except for the one in Co-Op City; more than 2,000 people attended.

Did you attend any of them?

What are your ideas for The Bronx?

And, I want concrete ones, not negative replies.

Did you ride these bronx bus routes before you gave out your opinions? Otherwise most of your opinions are moot.

Edited November 26, 2019 by MysteriousBtrain

[Lawrence St]

8 hours ago, dkupf said:

Therefore, my open letter stands with modifications.😁

1. Do you live in the Bronx?

2. Do you ride these routes often? And I dont mean once or twice, I mean ride these routes like almost every week for a whole year.

3. Do you understand HOW they're trying to do the redesign process?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 hours ago, dkupf said:

I attended most of the open houses.  No more than 25 people showed up for each of them.

Except for the one in Co-Op City; more than 2,000 people attended.

Did you attend any of them?

What are your ideas for The Bronx?

And, I want concrete ones, not negative replies.

Your comments are inaccurate, so you can't tell us to not respond "negatively" when you are talking out of your @ss.  For starters, a lot of people attended the work shops.  I went to the one in Riverdale, which had a full house.  The open house in Pelham Bay that I went to was also well attended.  Quite frankly, most of what was covered could've been done online. None of it was so creative or outside of the box.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

In fact, I was asked for my opinion about the work shop by an MTA rep. (planner) who followed up with me the following day via e-mail and was at the Riverdale work shop, and I didn't hold back in my response. I told him that I thought it was lackluster and quite frankly, having seen the online questionnaire, it was practically identical to what we did at the work shop.  

Edited November 26, 2019 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

@Lex - He's trying to say that I have no room to opine on his silly little letter, since I didn't attend any of those futile meetings.....

1 hour ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Did you ride these bronx bus routes before you gave out your opinions? Otherwise most of your opinions are moot.

55 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

1. Do you live in the Bronx?

2. Do you ride these routes often? And I dont mean once or twice, I mean ride these routes like almost every week for a whole year.

3. Do you understand HOW they're trying to do the redesign process?

I didn't warrant that weak ass shaming tactic of his with a response, as I saw it for what it was....

I'm not interested in injecting myself into any unproductive event (workshops, hearings, whatever) featuring a collective of PO'd transit riders, ready to spew whatever vitriol they can conjure up at the MTA (rightfully so & with good reason) at the drop of a hat..... Besides, I can get my dosage of Wallyhorse's, QJtransit_______'s, Dkupf's, Doppelganger99's, and Frederick Wells' all on an online message forum without fail... Losing enough damn brain cells as it is, stumbling onto forum posts from these so & so's.... Honestly now, I don't actually want to see or literally hear these f***ing people & for damn sure I don't want to hear some MTA rep{s} blowing smoke up my ass, regarding anything involving the eventual proverbial reaming that Bronx bus riders'll end up feeling the pain from....

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Your comments are inaccurate, so you can't tell us to not respond "negatively" when you are talking out of your @ss.  For starters, a lot of people attended the work shops.  I went to the one in Riverdale, which had a full house.  The open house in Pelham Bay that I went to was also well attended.  Quite frankly, most of what was covered could've been done online. None of it was so creative or outside of the box.

Even if it was, the MTA consider it anyway.... Money talks & you know what walks.

[dkupf]

On 11/26/2019 at 10:27 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Your comments are inaccurate, so you can't tell us to not respond "negatively" when you are talking out of your @ss.  For starters, a lot of people attended the work shops.  I went to the one in Riverdale, which had a full house.  The open house in Pelham Bay that I went to was also well attended.  Quite frankly, most of what was covered could've been done online. None of it was so creative or outside of the box.

I did not go to the one in Riverdale, but I attended the Marble Hill, Williamsbridge, Morrisania, Pelham Bay, and the Co-Op City.  Marble Hill and Williamsbridge had about 25 people each.  Morrisania, no more than 10.  But for Pelham Bay, I stand corrected.  There were at least 100 people, maybe more.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 hours ago, dkupf said:

I did not go to the one in Riverdale, but I attended the Marble Hill, Williamsbridge, Morrisania, Pelham Bay, and the Co-Op City.  Marble Hill and Williamsbridge had about 25 people each.  Morrisania, no more than 10.  But for Pelham Bay, I stand corrected.  There were at least 100 people, maybe more.

Yeah... They were all talking to Councilman Gjonaj about bus stop removals and how they were opposed to them since they were busy stops. It really depends on how well the events were advertised. For example, for the emergency Town Hall Meeting in Riverdale, I have representatives from elected officials in my advocacy group. Once they told us, we took it upon ourselves to spread the word via social media and then we had people in our group spreading the word by mouth. Within about a week, we had over 400 people show up on what was a miserable wet and cold Monday night.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Via Garibaldi 8

[ViaWaterViaChurch]

It's a shame they scrapped the BxM17 altogether.  They could have at least given Co-op City residents AM service and went from there.  The route wouldn't have been too bad in the morning if they ran the buses over the Whitestone and Grand Central the way the QM2/20 go, probably an hour to an hour 15 door to door on most days.

More and more business are moving back to FiDi.  I saw an article this past year that there's more businesses down there now than before 9/11.

[Parkchester39]

12 hours ago, ViaWaterViaChurch said:

It's a shame they scrapped the BxM17 altogether.  They could have at least given Co-op City residents AM service and went from there.  The route wouldn't have been too bad in the morning if they ran the buses over the Whitestone and Grand Central the way the QM2/20 go, probably an hour to an hour 15 door to door on most days.

More and more business are moving back to FiDi.  I saw an article this past year that there's more businesses down there now than before 9/11.

The BxM17 sounds like a good idea on paper, but in reality, this route would be plagued with delays from traffic on the LIE and Whitestone Bridge, which would make the service unattractive for Co-op residents.

[MysteriousBtrain]

16 minutes ago, Parkchester39 said:

The BxM17 sounds like a good idea on paper, but in reality, this route would be plagued with delays from traffic on the LIE and Whitestone Bridge, which would make the service unattractive for Co-op residents.

Depends on how it would be marketed. At the very least I think some people would use it to have a relaxing ride home.

 

If the bus shows up on time.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Depends on how it would be marketed. At the very least I think some people would use it to have a relaxing ride home.

 

If the bus shows up on time.

That's a big IF... Met with a few senior planners a few weeks ago and we reviewed all of the express bus lines including any revisions to the plans.  When I asked about HOV lanes for the BxM2 and BxM18 on the West Side, I got a deer in the headlights look. Their plan clearly says that they have to work with the DOT to use the West Side Highway, but they clearly have not discussed ANYTHING with the DOT about more HOV lanes. Then I got a we'll get a conference call with DOT tomorrow.  I told them if you're moving express buses off of congested corridors with no improvements to the new corridors, then they will still be sitting in traffic.  I got the impression from one of the planners that they do actually analyze the routes and how long trips take, but either they are limited in how many changes they can make OR need the DOT for certain things.  Apparently they can't even change some of the schedules. They acknowledged that some schedules had the same run times going back to the private company days.  Didn't elaborate on the particulars as to why they couldn't change them, but it must be some sort of contractual agreement or something.