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Italianstallion

New F express schedule out

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The last (F) express to get to midtown is around 8:20. Basically Soemone who starts work around 9Am Dosent have use for this .

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When was the forum emoji <F> added? AFAIK, the <F> never existed as a service in the past. But the <A> which did exist has no forum emoji.

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How far apart are the locals and expresses?

  • Brooklyn-bound (F) at Jay Street–MetroTech: 05:19 PM
  • Brooklyn-bound <F> at Jay Street–MetroTech: 05:22 PM — arriving just 3 minutes after the local.

Both trains meet at Kings Highway at 5:48 PM. Time saved: just 3~4 minutes.

In the Manhattan-bound direction an (F) takes 27~31 minutes to get from Kings Highway to Jay Street–MetroTech, but the <F> can do it in 20 minutes. The express saves 7~11 minutes. What gives?

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1 hour ago, CenSin said:

In the Manhattan-bound direction an (F) takes 27~31 minutes to get from Kings Highway to Jay Street–MetroTech, but the <F> can do it in 20 minutes. The express saves 7~11 minutes. What gives?

The 7th<>Church segment is scheduled 1 minute longer s/b thanks to the endless GT35s, and the Jay<>7th segment is 1.5 longer thanks to the fact that you really can't build speed/have to crawl out of Jay s/b. So runtime is 11 southbound and 8.5 northbound. 

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

How far apart are the locals and expresses?

  • Brooklyn-bound (F) at Jay Street–MetroTech: 05:19 PM
  • Brooklyn-bound <F> at Jay Street–MetroTech: 05:22 PM — arriving just 3 minutes after the local.

Both trains meet at Kings Highway at 5:48 PM. Time saved: just 3~4 minutes.

Don't look at Kings Highway. The <F> gets a 4 minute hold there essentially to pad the schedule -- they wanted to add runtime to reduce late clears and simplify crewing, but couldn't retime the entire line so they instead just put time at Kings Highway. It's doubtful that hold will be observed.

Looking at 18th Ave, the 16:22 179 to KHF (F) is 3 mins behind the 16:27 179 to STL <F>, which had been 3.5 behind it at Jay. 

The real flaw in the <F> schedule is, as I remember @RTOMan saying a few months back, that it creates massive gaps in Coney Island-bound service on Culver local/south of Church. Looking at the PM rush southbound schedule along the local (which, fwiw, is a not significant trip origin -- am using Bergen as my timepoint here) there's a 20 min gap where the first express used to be, and a 23 min gap for the second one. You can use the KH trains and the (G) to reach the <F>s, but even when you add those back in, you're looking at a 15 min gap following the first express at 18 Av, and a 17.5 min gap following the second. Definitely suboptimal. 

http://transitfeeds.com/p/mta/79/latest/stop/F30S/20190916 (18 Av)

http://transitfeeds.com/p/mta/79/latest/stop/F20S/20190916 (Bergen)

http://transitfeeds.com/p/mta/79/latest/stop/A41S/20190916 (Jay)

Also, if anyone happens be fanning the northbound <F>, may I humbly submit a request for a RFW? I'm out of town for a while, and haven't ridden B4 tk. north of 4th Avenue in a long time -- I want to reconfirm that the GTs going downhill from the viaduct towards Jay St are 2 shot 35s, becoming 30s and then 25s just before Bergen lower. Help here would be much appreciated. 

Edited by RR503
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I thought I had seen something about reverse peak trains being added as well, and that in the AM, they were later, like around 10 or something. I guess that wouldn't be to benefit riders, so probably for some operational benefit or something (I know that area feels like such a long winding rollercoaster, and always thought express would be nice; too bad they now can't find a suitable local replacement so that all (F)'s could go express).

Anyone else heard about something like this? I forgot where I saw it, whether here or on some FB group or elsewhere).

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5 minutes ago, Eric B said:

I thought I had seen something about reverse peak trains being added as well, and that in the AM, they were later, like around 10 or something. I guess that wouldn't be to benefit riders, so probably for some operational benefit or something (I know that area feels like such a long winding rollercoaster, and always thought express would be nice; too bad they now can't find a suitable local replacement so that all (F)'s could go express).

Anyone else heard about something like this? I forgot where I saw it, whether here or on some FB group or elsewhere).

I think it was the testing of the express runs where they ran the trains reverse peak

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13 hours ago, RR503 said:

Also, if anyone happens be fanning the northbound <F>, may I humbly submit a request for a RFW? I'm out of town for a while, and haven't ridden B4 tk. north of 4th Avenue in a long time -- I want to reconfirm that the GTs going downhill from the viaduct towards Jay St are 2 shot 35s, becoming 30s and then 25s just before Bergen lower. Help here would be much appreciated. 

Ditto. I’d like to also request that it be @Dj Hammers quality. The majority of videos I see on YouTube are lacking—glare from the glass, poor focus, poor sensitivity, and (the worst of all) pointing the camera out the side of the train.

13 hours ago, RR503 said:

The 7th<>Church segment is scheduled 1 minute longer s/b thanks to the endless GT35s, and the Jay<>7th segment is 1.5 longer thanks to the fact that you really can't build speed/have to crawl out of Jay s/b. So runtime is 11 southbound and 8.5 northbound. 

Don't look at Kings Highway. The <F> gets a 4 minute hold there essentially to pad the schedule -- they wanted to add runtime to reduce late clears and simplify crewing, but couldn't retime the entire line so they instead just put time at Kings Highway. It's doubtful that hold will be observed.

Looking at 18th Ave, the 16:22 179 to KHF (F) is 3 mins behind the 16:27 179 to STL <F>, which had been 3.5 behind it at Jay. 

The real flaw in the <F> schedule is, as I remember @RTOMan saying a few months back, that it creates massive gaps in Coney Island-bound service on Culver local/south of Church. Looking at the PM rush southbound schedule along the local (which, fwiw, is a not significant trip origin -- am using Bergen as my timepoint here) there's a 20 min gap where the first express used to be, and a 23 min gap for the second one. You can use the KH trains and the (G) to reach the <F>s, but even when you add those back in, you're looking at a 15 min gap following the first express at 18 Av, and a 17.5 min gap following the second. Definitely suboptimal.

I guess We’ll find out on Monday. The <F> PM schedule matches up to my work schedule, and the AM run gets me to work about 45 minutes earlier than I need to be at work.

Edited by CenSin
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37 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Ditto. I’d like to also request that it be @Dj Hammers quality. The majority of videos I see on YouTube are lacking—glare from the glass, poor focus, poor sensitivity, and (the worst of all) pointing the camera out the side of the train.

Unless an R32 or 42 somehow shows up on the <F>, it's impossible to get a glass glare free video. As long as I'm able to read the signs...

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To clarify this <F>. It will only run express between Church and Jay St, and will only save about 3-4 minutes right? 

Why not just start it from Kings Hwy as a put in from Coney Island Yard so local Culver service isn't affected?

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1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

To clarify this <F>. It will only run express between Church and Jay St, and will only save about 3-4 minutes right? 

Why not just start it from Kings Hwy as a put in from Coney Island Yard so local Culver service isn't affected?

7 mins savings n/b, 6 mins savings s/b. 

You can't do it that way because a) riders south of KH will definitely do this, and b) there isn't capacity in Queens to absorb the additional throughput. 

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14 minutes ago, RR503 said:

7 mins savings n/b, 6 mins savings s/b. 

You can't do it that way because a) riders south of KH will definitely do this, and b) there isn't capacity in Queens to absorb the additional throughput. 

If capacity in Queens is the issue, why not send them to 96th St?

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36 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

If capacity in Queens is the issue, why not send them to 96th St?

Queens isn’t the issue. It’s the 6 Avenue local capacity.

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39 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

If capacity in Queens is the issue, why not send them to 96th St?

That's more of a value question, is the amount of good you're doing on Culver offsetting the relatively empty trains that will be going from 50th St to 96th Ave. Then the future question, when---eventually---the (T) starts running, will you be willing to have to rescind those <F> trains (OMG ANOTHER NYCT SERVICE CUT) and suffer the consequences of that action?

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1 minute ago, CenSin said:

Queens isn’t the issue. It’s the 6 Avenue local capacity.

No it is not. RR503 is right. It is Queens capacity. During rush hours, the combined (E) and (F) run every 2 minutes (30 trains an hour) between the interlocking at Forest Hills and the interlocking at 36th Street (Queens). Plus, as I always say, it is physically impossible to run a train for more than 2 minutes apart (30 trains an hour). Technically, every non-isolated line in the system is limited to 15 trains an hour (4 minutes apart). The merge with the (M) in Manhattan along 6th Avenue still has room for more trains. You can also reroute those trains to SAS with the merge with the (Q) at Lex-63rd, since the (Q) only runs up to about 10 trains an hour (6 minutes apart).

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1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

If capacity in Queens is the issue, why not send them to 96th St?

That interlocking isn’t set up to handle revenue service merges, there are no punchboxes. (M) trains have to call Queensboro to get a lineup across — the only reason the railroad doesn’t fall apart on weekends is because frequencies are relatively low. 

43 minutes ago, Jsunflyguy said:

That's more of a value question, is the amount of good you're doing on Culver offsetting the relatively empty trains that will be going from 50th St to 96th Ave. Then the future question, when---eventually---the (T) starts running, will you be willing to have to rescind those <F> trains (OMG ANOTHER NYCT SERVICE CUT) and suffer the consequences of that action?

I mean, the (T) certainly isn’t imminent...but yes, there’s absolutely a value question in all these Culver express proposals.

47 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Queens isn’t the issue. It’s the 6 Avenue local capacity.

Nope. (M) runs 9tph peak, which leaves 5tph of spare room on 6th local assuming the 28tph cap holds in the new interlockings. 

Now that said, Queens isn’t totally maxed out. I pulled the n/b (E)(F) schedule at Roosevelt, and today we schedule 13 trains between 8:30 and 9, 13 between 9 and 9:30, 14 between 9:30 and 10, and 11 between 10 and 10:30. If you were creative with your scheduling and disciplined with ops, you maybe could work a train or two into there. Three questions are raised here: how to work additional AM service in on the (F) without reworking the entire B division (which would likely produce some nasty side effects), where to begin those runs, and of course, where to turn or clear the additions trains. 179 and Parsons already have holdouts after the AM rush, so you’d probably have to work with some more clunky terminal like Parsons. Dunno if it’s worth it. 

42 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

No it is not. RR503 is right. It is Queens capacity. During rush hours, the combined (E) and (F) run every 2 minutes (30 trains an hour) between the interlocking at Forest Hills and the interlocking at 36th Street (Queens). Plus, as I always say, it is physically impossible to run a train for more than 2 minutes apart (30 trains an hour). Technically, every non-isolated line in the system is limited to 15 trains an hour (4 minutes apart). The merge with the (M) in Manhattan along 6th Avenue still has room for more trains. You can also reroute those trains to SAS with the merge with the (Q) at Lex-63rd, since the (Q) only runs up to about 10 trains an hour (6 minutes apart).

As sad as this is, 30tph is honestly on the high end of what your average track is capable of in this system. We're really bad at ops, have some poorly laid out junctions/terminals, and our signals in many areas are garbage. There certainly are many stretches closer to 20tph maximum cap than 30. My totally unevidenced impression of SAS is that it may be one of them -- the signal blocks on that line are weirdly long, and weekend ops with the (M)seem to produce delays. 

Edited by RR503
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22 hours ago, Abba said:

The last (F) express to get to midtown is around 8:20. Basically Soemone who starts work around 9Am Dosent have use for this .

Many people start work at 8:30. I know when I worked at 48th and Park in a big company, that was the start time.

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22 hours ago, CenSin said:

How far apart are the locals and expresses?

  • Brooklyn-bound (F) at Jay Street–MetroTech: 05:19 PM
  • Brooklyn-bound <F> at Jay Street–MetroTech: 05:22 PM — arriving just 3 minutes after the local.

Both trains meet at Kings Highway at 5:48 PM. Time saved: just 3~4 minutes.

In the Manhattan-bound direction an (F) takes 27~31 minutes to get from Kings Highway to Jay Street–MetroTech, but the <F> can do it in 20 minutes. The express saves 7~11 minutes. What gives?

They don't actually both arrive at Kings at 5:48. That is physically impossible. What I gather happens, from a discussion in Subchat, is that the express arrives there at 5:45, then holds until the terminating local arrives at 5:48, so that travelers continuing south can connect. So the time saved to Kings is actually 6-7 minutes.

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2 minutes ago, Italianstallion said:

Many people start work at 8:30. I know when I worked at 48th and Park in a big company, that was the start time.

Or maybe some people start at 9 and want their coffee. Or just get to work a little early.

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Well well well...

Peep those two (M) and (R) intervals that were cut as part of the <F> express supplement...

Also the (E) trains that end at Union Tpke are supposedly being extended to 179th if you look at the top of the first screenshot in this tweet:

 

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I was looking for these (M)(R) changes on transitfeeds earlier. Hopefully they’ll have for tomorrow..

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1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

Well well well...

Peep those two (M) and (R) intervals that were cut as part of the <F> express supplement...

Also the (E) trains that end at Union Tpke are supposedly being extended to 179th if you look at the top of the first screenshot in this tweet:

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

Well well well...

Peep those two (M) and (R) intervals that were cut as part of the <F> express supplement...

Also the (E) trains that end at Union Tpke are supposedly being extended to 179th if you look at the top of the first screenshot in this tweet:

 

 

Inaccurate (disingenuous?) reading of the Subject line. It says Run Time Adjustments AND Inauguration of <F> they are two coincident events not one related event. You can even clearly see the G.O for <F> only supplements 3 lines. 

Very interested in where he's getting the 'regular interval' number from, I pulled up the Supplement and the base schedule as well as the public schedule dated from June and there have been 6 R trains since at least a year at Roosevelt between 7a-759a and there are 9 at 36/4th so I can't find the same numbers he's claiming, although its ambiguous what station he's referring to for the (M)(R) since he indicates two different ones. Either way 9 trains between 8a-9a in the indicated supplement, you mind asking that guy what exactly he's talking about?? The number of trains in S1087 S01 (which is from April) = Trains in the nominated times in S180, which is the---not related to <F>---Supplement going into effect. 

Care to ask that guy what he's talking about?

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43 minutes ago, Jsunflyguy said:

Very interested in where he's getting the 'regular interval' number from, I pulled up the Supplement and the base schedule as well as the public schedule dated from June and there have been 6 R trains since at least a year at Roosevelt between 7a-759a and there are 9 at 36/4th so I can't find the same numbers he's claiming, although its ambiguous what station he's referring to for the (M)(R) since he indicates two different ones. Either way 9 trains between 8a-9a in the indicated supplement, you mind asking that guy what exactly he's talking about?? The number of trains in S1087 S01 (which is from April) = Trains in the nominated times in S180, which is the---not related to <F>---Supplement going into effect. 

Delete, transitfeeds not cooperating at the moment

Edited by RR503

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6 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

Inaccurate (disingenuous?) reading of the Subject line. It says Run Time Adjustments AND Inauguration of <F> they are two coincident events not one related event. You can even clearly see the G.O for <F> only supplements 3 lines. 

Very interested in where he's getting the 'regular interval' number from, I pulled up the Supplement and the base schedule as well as the public schedule dated from June and there have been 6 R trains since at least a year at Roosevelt between 7a-759a and there are 9 at 36/4th so I can't find the same numbers he's claiming, although its ambiguous what station he's referring to for the (M)(R) since he indicates two different ones. Either way 9 trains between 8a-9a in the indicated supplement, you mind asking that guy what exactly he's talking about?? The number of trains in S1087 S01 (which is from April) = Trains in the nominated times in S180, which is the---not related to <F>---Supplement going into effect. 

Care to ask that guy what he's talking about?

There are two things going on. <F> express, and increases in running times on the (M) and (R).

 

No! My (E)s to my home station will no longer be! How long have these trains been in the timetable?

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