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New F express schedule out


Italianstallion

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I did not expect to do this today, but I got on the (Q) and got lucky catching a (B) right across the platform at Sheepshead Bay.

(Q) ride:

  • Coney Island–Stillwell: -7:48
  • West 8 Street: 7:50-7:50
  • Ocean Parkway: 7:52-7:52
  • ((B) across the platform continues to Brighton Beach to be put into service on the Manhattan-bound express track.)
  • Brighton Beach: 7:53-7:53
  • ((B) on the Coney Island-bound express track leaves the station simultaneously.)
  • Sheepshead Bay: 7:55-7:56
  • (Transferred to the (B) from the (Q). People on the (Q) held the train open.)

(B) ride:

  • Sheepshead Bay: 7:55-7:56
  • ((B) passed the (Q) at Neck Road. It was already platformed.)
  • Kings Highway: 7:59-7:59
  • Newkirk Plaza: 8:03-8:03
  • ((B) passed another (Q) at Beverly Road at 8:05.)
  • Church Avenue: 8:06-8:06
  • ((B) did not wait for the (Q) which pulled into the station across the platform shortly.)
  • Prospect Park: 8:08-8:09
  • 7 Avenue: 8:11-8:12
  • Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center: 8:13-8:14
  • DeKalb Avenue: 8:17-8:17
  • ((B) reached the junction at 8:18, with no other trains contending to traverse it. The entire train passed through the junction at 8:20, and got on the bridge at 8:21—including the last car of the train. The train reached the foot of the bridge at 8:24.)
  • Grand Street: 8:25-8:25
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: 8:27-8:28
  • ((F) train across the platform had trouble fully closing down due to crowds.)

It seems that a full Brighton express would be a 39-minute run from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street. That’s about 4 minutes faster than the <F>, which took 44 minutes on Monday. That <F> was supposed to take 40 minutes as scheduled, so it has potential if they can run decent service between 7 Avenue and Jay Street–MetroTech. It certainly beats the crap out of the (D) already, which takes about 46 minutes from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street.

Edited by CenSin
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On 9/14/2019 at 11:08 PM, RR503 said:

The 7th<>Church segment is scheduled 1 minute longer s/b thanks to the endless GT35s, and the Jay<>7th segment is 1.5 longer thanks to the fact that you really can't build speed/have to crawl out of Jay s/b. So runtime is 11 southbound and 8.5 northbound. 

Don't look at Kings Highway. The <F> gets a 4 minute hold there essentially to pad the schedule -- they wanted to add runtime to reduce late clears and simplify crewing, but couldn't retime the entire line so they instead just put time at Kings Highway. It's doubtful that hold will be observed.

Looking at 18th Ave, the 16:22 179 to KHF (F) is 3 mins behind the 16:27 179 to STL <F>, which had been 3.5 behind it at Jay. 

The real flaw in the <F> schedule is, as I remember @RTOMan saying a few months back, that it creates massive gaps in Coney Island-bound service on Culver local/south of Church. Looking at the PM rush southbound schedule along the local (which, fwiw, is a not significant trip origin -- am using Bergen as my timepoint here) there's a 20 min gap where the first express used to be, and a 23 min gap for the second one. You can use the KH trains and the (G) to reach the <F>s, but even when you add those back in, you're looking at a 15 min gap following the first express at 18 Av, and a 17.5 min gap following the second. Definitely suboptimal. 

http://transitfeeds.com/p/mta/79/latest/stop/F30S/20190916 (18 Av)

http://transitfeeds.com/p/mta/79/latest/stop/F20S/20190916 (Bergen)

http://transitfeeds.com/p/mta/79/latest/stop/A41S/20190916 (Jay)

Also, if anyone happens be fanning the northbound <F>, may I humbly submit a request for a RFW? I'm out of town for a while, and haven't ridden B4 tk. north of 4th Avenue in a long time -- I want to reconfirm that the GTs going downhill from the viaduct towards Jay St are 2 shot 35s, becoming 30s and then 25s just before Bergen lower. Help here would be much appreciated. 

They changed it up with the supplement..

They added two extra trains....

One to the highway..

One to Stillwell.

Which makes the log jam at church worse..

So bad lots of Foxes got skips from Church to the Highway yesterday!

B4 Track from Church to 7th ave to smooth sailing no timers.. From Church to Jay there are timers.. Fourth ave and just  north of smith ninth...

Edited by RTOMan
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1 hour ago, RTOMan said:

They changed it up with the supplement..

They added two extra trains....

One to the highway..

One to Stillwell.

Which makes the log jam at church worse..

So bad lots of Foxes got skips from Church to the Highway yesterday!

B4 Track from Church to 7th ave to smooth sailing no timers.. From Church to Jay there are timers.. Fourth ave and just  north of smith ninth...

They issued _another_ supplement?? 

Re: timers, what are the speeds from 7th to Jay? If my memory serves me, it’s 30 into 4th, and then 35 off the viaduct, becoming 30 between Carroll and Bergen, and then 25 into Bergen Lower — all 2 shots. Is this correct? Thanks much! 

I find it the height of irony that they chose to implement <F> while doing nada about the issues are Church. Those 2 minute dwell times from (G) terminal ops are fixable whether it be by actually fixing the clearing issues, or by just extending (G)s to 18th middle and running the area like 206/BPB. The extension could likely be done within the amount of time allotted for layovers, anyway...

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3 hours ago, CenSin said:

I did not expect to do this today, but I got on the (Q) and got lucky catching a (B) right across the platform at Sheepshead Bay.

(Q) ride:

  • Coney Island–Stillwell: -7:48
  • West 8 Street: 7:50-7:50
  • Ocean Parkway: 7:52-7:52
  • ((B) across the platform continues to Brighton Beach to be put into service on the Manhattan-bound express track.)
  • Brighton Beach: 7:53-7:53
  • ((B) on the Coney Island-bound express track leaves the station simultaneously.)
  • Sheepshead Bay: 7:55-7:56
  • (Transferred to the (B) from the (Q). People on the (Q) held the train open.)

(B) ride:

  • Sheepshead Bay: 7:55-7:56
  • ((B) passed the (Q) at Neck Road. It was already platformed.)
  • Kings Highway: 7:59-7:59
  • Newkirk Plaza: 8:03-8:03
  • ((B) passed another (Q) at Beverly Road at 8:05.)
  • Church Avenue: 8:06-8:06
  • ((B) did not wait for the (Q) which pulled into the station across the platform shortly.)
  • Prospect Park: 8:08-8:09
  • 7 Avenue: 8:11-8:12
  • Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center: 8:13-8:14
  • DeKalb Avenue: 8:17-8:17
  • ((B) reached the junction at 8:18, with no other trains contending to traverse it. The entire train passed through the junction at 8:20, and got on the bridge at 8:21—including the last car of the train. The train reached the foot of the bridge at 8:24.)
  • Grand Street: 8:25-8:25
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: 8:27-8:28
  • ((F) train across the platform had trouble fully closing down due to crowds.)

It seems that a full Brighton express would be a 39-minute run from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street. That’s about 4 minutes faster than the <F>, which took 44 minutes on Monday. That <F> was supposed to take 40 minutes as scheduled, so it has potential if they can run decent service between 7 Avenue and Jay Street–MetroTech. It certainly beats the crap out of the (D) already, which takes about 46 minutes from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street.

In the <F> 's defense, as a daily Brighton commuter of both the (B) and (Q) trains, I'd say the probability of getting an instant cross platform connection between the (B) & the (Q) is roughly 2/10 Manhattan Bound (AM Rush) & 6/10 Brighton Beach/Coney Island bound (PM Rush). I'm not sure why the discrepancy between the two, but Manhattan Bound (B) trains do not hesitate to close the doors and leave the station as the (Q) enters/discharges passengers at express stations. Majority of the time, when I transfer from the (Q) to the (B) at Kings Highway, I wait on average 3-5 minutes so that practically makes up for those 4 minutes the <F> lost in your case. However, I could just be unlucky 🤷‍♂️.

Edited by R32s
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16 minutes ago, R32s said:

In the <F> 's defense, as a daily Brighton commuter of both the (B) and (Q) trains, I'd say the probability of getting an instant cross platform connection between the (B) & the (Q) is roughly 2/10 Manhattan Bound (AM Rush) & 6/10 Brighton Beach/Coney Island bound (PM Rush). I'm not sure why the discrepancy between the two, but Manhattan Bound (B) trains do not hesitate to close the doors and leave the station as the (Q) enters/discharges passengers at express stations. Majority of the time, when I transfer from the (Q) to the (B) at Kings Highway, I wait on average 3-5 minutes so that practically makes up for those 4 minutes the <F> lost in your case. However, I could just be unlucky 🤷‍♂️.

The (Q) trains also often do not wait for the (B). Sometimes the Brighton Beach-bound (B) waits for the (Q) at Newkirk Plaza—as if all those folks on the (Q) didn’t already have an opportunity to catch it at Church Avenue or Prospect Park. Then the (B) misses the earlier (Q) at Sheepshead Bay, screwing over anyone heading to Ocean Parkway, West 8 Street, and Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue.

Definitely, the <F>, being a one-seat ride has the advantage of being an express without the transfer uncertainty/penalty.

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22 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

https://new.mta.info/fexpress

@RR503 Look at this:https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-09/F express study 2019-07-26.pdf

 They tried to modify the older F Express study and did an awful job! You can sort of tell the timing for this because it says

Interesting notes:

I hadn't thought of the comparison to the Rockaway Park As, but that is different. These are the only through trains there. Of course people are willing to wait for them.

 

You missed the money quotes at the end of the document - admitting the F express is only a pilot that will be reevaluated in a a few weeks(!) or months depending on ridership.

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18 hours ago, CenSin said:

The Coney Island-bound run could be much better. The MTA didn’t schedule away the trains at the terminal, and so there was a long delay at West 8 Street. Captain Obvious says: If you find yourself at West 8 Street right after being delayed in between Neptune Avenue and West 8 Street, take the (Q) on the upper level to cut down on time waiting for the terminal to clear. Just to be sure that the (Q) won’t also be waiting, look for signs on the Manhattan-bound side that indicate a (Q) left the terminal recently. It should all be visible from the middle of the (F) train when it’s stranded between Neptune Avenue and West 8 Street.

  • (A Coney Island-bound (F) pulled into the station and opened up at 5:10; it closed down at 5:10 and left the station at 5:11. The next train on the countdown clock was designated “Kings Highway (F)” but the signage on the train read “Culver express” when it arrived.)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: opened 5:12 (1 minute early when compared to scheduled 5:13)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: closed 5:12
  • 2 Avenue: opened 5:13
  • 2 Avenue: closed 5:14
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: opened 5:15
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: closed 5:16
  • East Broadway: opened 5:17
  • East Broadway: closed 5:17
  • York Street: opened 5:20
  • (The <F> held a little longer at this station for about a third of a minute.)
  • York Street: closed 5:21
  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: opened 5:22 (on-time when compared to scheduled 5:22)
  • (The (C) train across the platform didn’t wait for the <F>. The conductor made a 20-second announcement about the special F Express program before closing down.)
  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: closed 5:23
  • (The <F> plowed past the switches on the lower level like they weren't there.)
  • (The <F> passed Bergen Street at 5:25.)
  • (The <F> passed Carroll Street at 5:25, bypassing the (F) local.)
  • (The <F> passed Smith–9 Street at 5:26 with a (G) that was also pulling out of the station. It crept down the incline towards 4 Avenue–9 Street slowly.
  • (The <F> passed 4 Avenue–9 Street at 5:27.)
  • 7 Avenue: opened 5:28
  • 7 Avenue: closed 5:29
  • Church Avenue: opened 5:33
  • Church Avenue: closed 5:33
  • Ditmas Avenue: opened 5:35
  • Ditmas Avenue: closed 5:35
  • 18 Avenue: opened 5:36
  • 18 Avenue: closed 5:37
  • Avenue I: opened 5:38
  • Avenue I: closed 5:38
  • Bay Parkway: opened 5:39
  • Bay Parkway: closed 5:39
  • Avenue N: opened 5:40
  • Avenue N: closed 5:41
  • (At this point, the (F) became visible from the rear window of the train, probably pulling into Ditmas Avenue.)
  • Avenue P: opened 5:42
  • Avenue P: closed 5:42
  • Kings Highway: opened 5:43 (early by 5 minutes when compared to scheduled 5:48)
  • Kings Highway: closed 5:44 (just 15 seconds after opening up—no nonsense here with the holding lights)
  • Avenue U: opened 5:45
  • Avenue U: closed 5:45
  • Avenue X: opened 5:47
  • Avenue X: closed 5:47
  • Neptune Avenue: opened 5:48
  • Neptune Avenue: closed 5:48
  • (The train stalled from 5:50 to 5:51 in between stations due to another F train in the station up ahead.)
  • West 8 Street: open 5:52
  • (The train stalled at the station waiting for the terminal track to clear. A Coney Island-bound (Q) pulled in during this time and opened up at 5:54 on the upper level, pulling out about 100 seconds later at 5:55 after a Manhattan-bound (Q) pulled into the station from the terminal. Another Coney Island-bound (Q) pulled in and opened up at 5:58.)
  • West 8 Street: closed 6:00 (and pulled out at 6:01 after a Manhattan-bound (F) pulled into the station)
  • Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue: opened 6:03 (late by 1 minutes when compared to scheduled 6:02)

What were the passenger loads like on the 2 expresses you took?

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22 minutes ago, Italianstallion said:

What were the passenger loads like on the 2 expresses you took?

Both the the AM and PM <F> were SRO between Jay Street–MetroTech and 7 Avenue. A lot of passengers got off at 7 Avenue in the PM, heading for the station exits. I’m going to observe the loads more closely during the next few observations. But I wouldn’t say that either ride was packed during the express run. The PM <F> I was on came right after an (F) so it likely contributed to the lighter load. Unfortunately, that (F) was signed up as Coney Island-bound but I never saw the train after Kings Highway, so whoever took that train not only got the slow ride through Brooklyn, but also had to wait for the next (F) while the Coney Island-bound <F> breezed past it at Carroll Street.

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I’m gonna say this about the second day of this <F> trial… It’s a marked departure from day 1. They did not think this through. The first PM <F> saved no time. Details:

  • (A Kings Highway-bound (F) pulled into the station at 5:07 and left at 5:08. The Coney Island-bound <F> followed at 5:12 with an overly enthusiastic conductor making manual closing door announcements. Okay! That was good because the train was early by a minute.)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: opened 5:12 (early by 1 minute when compared to scheduled 5:13)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: closed 5:12
  • 2 Avenue: opened 5:13
  • 2 Avenue: closed 5:14
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: opened 5:15
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: closed 5:15
  • East Broadway: opened 5:16
  • East Broadway: closed 5:17
  • York Street: opened 5:19
  • York Street: closed 5:19
  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: opened 5:21 (early by 1 minute when compared to scheduled 5:22)
  • (What appeared to be a quarter of the passengers got off the train after the conductor made the announcement about express service. Some people held the doors, but not for very long. The train was still SRO.)
  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: closed 5:22
  • (The <F> passed Carroll Street at 5:24.)
  • (The <F> passed Smith–9 Street at 5:25, bypassing a (G) stopped at the station. The slow creep down the incline was still present.)
  • (The <F> passed 4 Avenue–9 Street at 5:26.)
  • 7 Avenue: opened 5:28
  • (The same (G) pulled into the station, but the <F> did not wait for it.)
  • 7 Avenue: closed 5:29
  • Church Avenue: opened 5:33
  • (An (F) was waiting across the platform, but closed down and left first at 5:33. The passenger load had become light after Church Avenue with seats for everyone.)
  • Church Avenue: closed 5:34
  • (The Kings Highway-bound (F) pulled in and opened up at 5:35 after the <F> was already pulling out.)
  • Ditmas Avenue: opened 5:36
  • Ditmas Avenue: closed 5:37
  • (At this point, the (F) up ahead was clearly slowing traffic down the Culver.)
  • 18 Avenue: opened 5:39
  • 18 Avenue: closed 5:39
  • (Looking out the back, the Kings Highway-bound (F) behind us was switching to the express track!)
  • Avenue I: opened 5:40
  • Avenue I: closed 5:41
  • Bay Parkway: opened 5:41
  • Bay Parkway: closed 5:42
  • (The Kings Highway-bound (F) bypassed us as we pulled out of the station.)
  • Avenue N: opened 5:43
  • Avenue N: closed 5:43
  • Avenue P: opened 5:44
  • (The train is held for about half a minute, presumably because of traffic conditions down at Kings Highway.)
  • Avenue P: closed 5:46
  • (The (F) on the middle track opened it's doors right before the <F> did, and people getting off rushed across the platform to get on our Coney Island-bound <F>.)
  • Kings Highway: opened 5:47 (early by 1 minute when compared to scheduled 5:48)
  • Kings Highway: closed 5:48
  • Avenue U: opened 5:49
  • Avenue U: closed 5:49
  • Avenue X: opened 5:50
  • Avenue X: closed 5:51
  • Neptune Avenue: opened 5:52
  • Neptune Avenue: closed 5:53
  • West 8 Street: open 5:54
  • (A Coney Island-bound (Q) pulled in and opened up at 5:55, followed shortly by a Manhattan-bound (Q). Both pulled out within the same minute while the <F> was held for the terminal track to clear at Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue. Another Manhattan-bound (Q) pulled in and out at 6:01, followed by a Manhattan-bound (F) and another Coney Island-bound (Q)—both of which pulled out of the station promptly at 6:02. It took over another half minute for the <F> to get the signal to proceed.)
  • West 8 Street: closed 6:03
  • Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue: opened 6:05 (3 minutes late when compared to scheduled 6:02)

The express run was good. It actually saved time between Jay Street–MetroTech and Church Avenue. It caught up with even another (F)—the one before even the Kings Highway-bound (F) I saw at Broadway–Lafayette Street at 5:07. But my impression was that (F) train supervision had held that train for a cross-platform transfer, and not sending the  <F> first at Church Avenue was a decision that cost the commuters who would have stood to benefit most from an express service—those headed for stations south of Kings Highway. Regrettably, I did not see for sure whether that train was a Coney Island-bound (F).

Later, the Kings Highway-bound (F) that arrived at Broadway–Lafayette Street at 5:07 ultimately reached Kings Highway first—getting there before the <F> by 5 seconds. It was sent express after 18 Avenue on the express track, bypassing us as we pulled out of Bay Parkway. But apparently, it ran into some traffic problems because it practically pulled into Kings Highway at the same time as our <F>! I did not see whether the (F) across the platform at Church Avenue had been Kings Highway-bound or Coney Island-bound, but it was probably the deciding factor in the poor <F> experience today.

As with day 1, the <F> was held at West 8 Street for the terminal to clear at Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue. The total wait was 9 minutes while 2 Coney Island-bound (Q)s made it to the terminal without delay and 2 Manhattan-bound (Q) left the station as those (Q)s came in. Ultimately, the <F> made it to the terminal late by 3 minutes compared to the scheduled time.

The spirit of implementing the <F> service was meant to save time—or so the MTA wants the public to think. And if the first run was any indication, it has the potential to get passengers from Broadway–Lafayette Street to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue in just 40 minutes. But the PM schedule is bad, and so were some key decisions made by the train supervision today. What was the “<F>” but a mislabeled disservice? Maybe day 3 will be better.

Edited by CenSin
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13 hours ago, CenSin said:

Your train was about 5 minutes slower than mine at PM rush. 25 minutes to Kings Highway versus my 20 minutes. Did I read that right? Your train got to Church Avenue as scheduled just like my train.

Correct. The extra 3 mins was b/c of the train being held at Church Av to avoid congestion with the Kings Hwy (F) and the (G) was on the right. 2 mins after the time being held was with the passengers running to that <F> I was on before departure, doors open and close till it's all clear. 

 

Edited by Calvin
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6 hours ago, CenSin said:

I’m going to observe the loads more closely during the next few observations.

I read all your other posts in this thread already. However, keep in mind that NYC Transit loading guidelines call for 145 people per car on all 60 foot cars (if running on a 4-minute headway) during the rush.

http://web.mta.info/mta/compliance/pdf/supplemental-info.pdf (scroll down to page 25)

If the <F> express is carrying well below guidelines at the peak load point (7th Avenue on the Manhattan-bound direction in the AM peak), then the express service should be cancelled. If not, then more express service should probably be added. The (G) likely is going to have to become full-length (480 feet or 600 feet) to handle the riders between Church and Bergen if all (F)'s are fully express on the underground portion of the Culver Line. Riders closer to Bergen likely have to walk towards Jay or Hoyt to catch a train to Manhattan. But the (A), (C), and even the (F) are already heavily loaded than the average guideline by the time they reach the Brooklyn CBDs and stay that way up their respective lines until they fully pass through after Midtown Manhattan.

The (F) is already crushloaded even before it reaches its peak load point at Bergen northbound in the mornings.

Edited by Jemorie
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2 hours ago, CenSin said:

I’m gonna say this about the second day of this <F> trial… It’s a marked departure from day 1. They did not think this through. The first PM <F> saved no time. Details:

  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: closed 5:22
  • (The <F> passed Carroll Street at 5:24.)
  • (The <F> passed Smith–9 Street at 5:25, bypassing a (G) stopped at the station. The slow creep down the incline was still present.)
  • (The <F> passed 4 Avenue–9 Street at 5:26.)
  • 7 Avenue: opened 5:28

 

That was a pretty interesting race to watch. Too bad he didn't have the <F> sign:

 

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2 hours ago, Jemorie said:

The (F) is already crushloaded even before it reaches its peak load point at Bergen northbound in the mornings.

But they are sending empty (F) trains out of the Church Avenue Yard at the same time the Manhattan-bound <F> gets to the station. I would like to know if anyone riding that specific (F) has found it crush-loaded at Bergen Street.

 

Revisiting the MTA’s official schedule again, I’ve found what I think might be the root cause of the <F> delays during PM rush:

  • The <F> naturally takes 40 minutes to get from Broadway–Lafayette to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue if left unimpeded, but the schedule allocates 49 minutes for that segment.
  • There are 4 Culver trains that go through Broadway–Lafayette Street spaced 5 minutes apart (ignoring the (M) trains):
    • (F) to Kings Highway at 4:58
    • (F) to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue at 5:03
    • (F) to Kings Highway at 5:08
    • <F> to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue at 5:13.
  • Until they leave Jay Street–MetroTech, all 4 of these trains are still spaced roughly 5 minutes apart. To Church Avenue, the (F) will take 17 minutes while the <F> will take 11 minutes. Some (G) trains are scheduled in between. That means the Church Avenue arrivals should look like this:
    • (F) to Kings Highway at 5:25
    • (G) to Church Avenue at 5:27
    • (F) to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue at 5:30
    • (G) to Church Avenue at 5:32
    • <F> to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue at 5:33
    • (F) to Kings Highway at 5:35.
  • If service operates without a hiccup, service should continue quite smoothly from Church Avenue. Approaching Kings Highway, the arrivals should be about 3~4 minutes apart:
    • (F) to Kings Highway at 5:38
    • (F) to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue at 5:41
    • <F> to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue at 5:44
    • (F) to Kings Highway at 5:48
  • Unfortunately, Kings Highway is also where problems are guaranteed to crop up. The <F> is technically scheduled to hold at Kings Highway until 5:48 (when the following (F) arrives at the station on the middle track). If the hold is not observed, the <F> will get held at Neptune Avenue or West 8 Street due to the fact that the terminal tracks are occupied at Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue, and that the (F) is scheduled to depart approximately every 10 minutes. The train arrivals/departures at Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue around this time look like this:
    • (F) departure at 5:48 ← one terminal track free after departure
    • (F) arrival at 5:53 ← both terminal tracks occupied after arrival for a total of 12 minutes between Kings Highway and Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue
    • (F) departure at 6:01 ← one terminal track free after departure
    • <F> arrival at 6:02 ← train dwells at West 8 Street or Kings Highway for extra 5 minutes for a total of 17 minutes between Kings Highway and Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue
      • The 5-minute delay is the best one can hope for, but in practice the 2 <F> trips I rode have been late even compared to the scheduled arrival time due to occupied terminal tracks and late departures from the terminal.
      • If the MTA kept 1 track free for the <F>, it could arrive at Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue as soon as 5:57 for a run time of 44 minutes between Broadway–Lafayette Street and Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue.
  • Manhattan-bound trains are also scheduled to depart Kings Highway approximately every 10 minutes. If, like Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue, the terminal track is occupied, the next Kings Highway-bound (F) is left waiting outside the station waiting for the Manhattan-bound train to depart. And behind that train, another (F) might have to wait. The <F> could be more reliable if operated like the Bronx-bound (6) and <6>,

At 49 minutes scheduled, the PM <F> is worse than the regular (D) which takes 46 minutes. In practice, the PM <F> has so far been worse than even that at 50~53 minutes.

 

Edited by CenSin
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Today, for the (Q)(6):

  • (The conductor was late and instead of the train closing down at 7:42 as indicated by the lights…)
  • Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue: -7:43
  • West 8 Street: 7:45-7:46
  • Ocean Parkway: 7:47-7:47
  • (A Brighton Beach-bound (B) dumped its passengers on the Manhattan-bound platform at the same time the (Q) pulled in. There was no train on the Coney Island-bound express track.)
  • Brighton Beach: 7:48-7:49
  • Sheepshead Bay: 7:51-7:51
  • Neck Road: 7:52-7:53
  • Avenue U: 7:54-7:54
  • Kings Highway: 7:56-7:56
  • Avenue M: 7:57-5:58
  • Avenue J: 7:59-7:59
  • (A (B) passes by the (Q) in between stations.)
  • Avenue H: 8:01-8:01
  • Newkirk Plaza: 8:02-8:03
  • Cortelyou Road: 8:04-8:04
  • Beverly Road: 8:05-8:05 (The (B) that passed the (Q) at this station at the same time yesterday already passed by at Avenue J today.)
  • Church Avenue: 8:07-8:07
  • Parkside Avenue: 8:08-8:09
  • Prospect Park: 8:10-8:10
  • 7 Avenue: 8:13-8:13
  • Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center: 8:15-8:16
  • DeKalb Avenue: 8:18-8:20 (There was a half-minute delay because of holding for an arriving (R).)
  • ((Q) reached the junction at 8:22, with a (D) on the other track going ahead first. The entire train made it on the bridge at 8:23 and reached the foot of the bridge at 8:26.)
  • Canal Street: 8:28-8:28
  • (For the sake of completeness, I transferred to the (6) which pulled in around the same time as the (Q).)
  • Canal Street: 8:28-8:29
  • Spring Street: 8:30-8:30
  • Bleecker Street: 8:31-8:31
  • (The (D) from before appears to have just left the station. A Bronx-bound (B) pulled into the station shortly after at 8:32.)

I can conclude one thing from comparison with yesterday’s (Q)(B) trip: there is a lot of variability in train departure times, and the mismatches create inefficiencies that make it not worthwhile to pursue a two-seat express ride; you’ll never know if you’ll make the connection. As a stark contrast, the difference in run time between yesterday and today’s ride to Broadway–Lafayette Street is a whopping 8~9 minutes, illustrating the potential of a one-seat express.

Edited by CenSin
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I don't think we should be obsessing about the express F being held just before entering Stillwell terminal, if it's on-time until that point. It still saves time as per schedule for every stop on the line EXCEPT Stillwell. Very few people are left on the train by that point, I suspect, and they're the ones who have the most choice of alternative routes.

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4 minutes ago, Italianstallion said:

I don't think we should be obsessing about the express F being held just before entering Stillwell terminal, if it's on-time until that point. It still saves time as per schedule for every stop on the line EXCEPT Stillwell. Very few people are left on the train by that point, I suspect, and they're the ones who have the most choice of alternative routes.

And as I stated before… grab the (Q) upstairs at West 8 Street. On both days, the (Q) upstairs left first. Yesterday, 2 (Q) got into the terminal before the <F>. I’m going to see if the pattern holds. If I weren’t timing these trains to the very end, I would have made the more optimal decisions:

  • run for the Coney Island-bound (F) across the platform at Church Avenue (yesterday)
  • taken the (Q) upstairs knowing that the terminal was experiencing congestion (both days)

The scheduled arrivals up until Kings Highway seem reasonable as the trains aren’t spaced too closely together, but in practice delays tend to cascade up the Culver as the trains wait for terminal space at Kings Highway and Coney Island. 

I don’t know the full situation yesterday, so I can’t really judge if the train supervision’s decision were optimal. But they should consider informing the conductor of the situation so that passengers can be alerted to make strategic cross-platform transfers. That cross-platform transfer at Church Avenue could have saved Coney Island-bound passengers 8~9 minutes no matter which train they sent ahead first.

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On 9/17/2019 at 8:41 AM, CenSin said:

It seems that a full Brighton express would be a 39-minute run from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street. That’s about 4 minutes faster than the <F>, which took 44 minutes on Monday. That <F> was supposed to take 40 minutes as scheduled, so it has potential if they can run decent service between 7 Avenue and Jay Street–MetroTech. It certainly beats the crap out of the (D) already, which takes about 46 minutes from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street.

I can see more West End Riders clamoring for a <D> express if this <F> service is a success. Though the <F> seems to be having some teething troubles that need to get worked out. Let’s see if they can.

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During these 2 days on the <F> at Jay St-Metrotech, the platform is crowded with a (F) behind to Kings Hwy in 1-2 minutes arrival. The train has standees from left to right with seats filled up.  (4:27 F to Stillwell) -Today

The other day 4:57 train (yesterday), the (F) to Kings Hwy arrived but the train is full. The <F> arrived but not crowded compared to the Kings Hwy load. 

Edited by Calvin
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42 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I can see more West End Riders clamoring for a <D> express if this <F> service is a success. Though the <F> seems to be having some teething troubles that need to get worked out. Let’s see if they can.

The <F>, folks can make a case for since the regular (F) is all local and there are like 50 minutes in between Broadway–Lafayette Street and Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue. The (D) is only slightly faster at 46 minutes, but it runs express. That alone is going to be a hurdle since the communities that stand to benefit have to make the case that the (D) needs to be even more express than it already is. I’m not arguing against it since I believe the MTA should strive to make everyone’s commutes 35 minutes or less. But it’s an unlikely proposal that anyone would stick up for—especially from the MTA which would have to increase its expenditures to run trains for the <D>.

 

Anyway, I’ve taken the PM <F> a third time today. Again, there was the overly enthusiastic conductor sprinkling his commentary on the passengers here and there. There is some extra information I noted for @Italianstallion. Whenever possible, I took note of the number of people in the train car with me (including myself). If I didn’t have a clear view down the length of the car though, I did not try to count. That was when the train was packed.

  • (A Kings Highway-bound (F) pulls in the station at 5:09 and leaves at 5:10—1~2 minutes late. The Coney Island-bound <F> followed at 5:15.)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: opened 5:15 (2 minutes late compared to scheduled 5:13)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: closed 5:15
  • 2 Avenue: opened 5:16
  • 2 Avenue: closed 5:17
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: opened 5:18
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: closed 5:18
  • East Broadway: opened 5:20
  • (At this point, there are maybe a little under 80 people in the car. Most people are sitting, but there are about 3 dozen people standing.)
  • East Broadway: closed 5:20
  • York Street: opened 5:22
  • (At this stop, more people than boarded the train than have gotten off.)
  • York Street: closed 5:23
  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: opened 5:25 (3 minutes late compared to scheduled 5:22)
  • (The (C) across the platform doesn't wait. The <F> picks up a few more people. At this point, there are about 80~90 people in the car.)
  • Jay Street–MetroTech: closed 5:25
  • (The <F> passed Bergen Street at 5:26.)
  • (The <F> passed Carroll Street at 5:27.)
  • (The <F> passed Smith–9 Street at 5:28, creeping slowly down the incline towards 4 Avenue–9 Street.)
  • (The <F> passed 4 Avenue–9 Street at 5:29~5:30.)
  • 7 Avenue: opened 5:31 (2 minutes late compared to scheduled 5:29)
  • (There were about 60 people remaining in the car.)
  • 7 Avenue: closed 5:32
  • Church Avenue: opened 5:36 (3 minutes late compared to scheduled 5:33)
  • (There are 56 people remaining in the car.)
  • Church Avenue: closed 5:37
  • Ditmas Avenue: opened 5:38
  • (There are 58 people in the car—still SRO.)
  • Ditmas Avenue: closed 5:39
  • 18 Avenue: opened 5:40
  • (There are approximately 41 people remaining in the car—no longer SRO.)
  • 18 Avenue: closed 5:40
  • Avenue I: opened 5:41
  • (There are 38 people remaining in the car.)
  • Avenue I: closed 5:41
  • Bay Parkway: opened 5:42
  • (There are 40 people remaining in the car.)
  • Bay Parkway: closed 5:43
  • (A Manhattan-bound (F) passed by on the express track, probably to make up for lost time.)
  • Avenue N: opened 5:44
  • (There are 34 people remaining in the car.)
  • Avenue N: closed 5:44
  • Avenue P: opened 5:45
  • (There are still 34 people remaining in the car.)
  • Avenue P: closed 5:45
  • Kings Highway: opened 5:47 (1 minute early compared to scheduled 5:48)
  • (There are no trains on the middle track. There are 21 people remaining in the car.)
  • Kings Highway: closed 5:47
  • Avenue U: opened 5:49
  • (There are still 21 people remaining in the car.)
  • Avenue U: closed 5:49
  • Avenue X: opened 5:50
  • (There are 10 people remaining in the car.)
  • Avenue X: closed 5:50
  • Neptune Avenue: opened 5:52
  • (There are 5 people remaining in the car.)
  • Neptune Avenue: closed 5:53
  • West 8 Street: open 5:54
  • (There's a (Q) on the upper level already and another one at Ocean Parkway. It pulled out at 5:55 right after a Manhattan-bound (Q) arrived. The next (Q) from Ocean Parkway pulled into the station at 5:56 and pulled out a minute later at 5:57. On the <F>, there were 3 people remaining in the car. The train didn’t close down until the Manhattan-bound  (F) pulled into the station at 6:00.)
  • West 8 Street: closed 6:00
  • Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue: opened 6:03 (1 minute late when compared to scheduled 6:02)

It was interesting to note that more people got on the train (from my point of view inside the train) than got off at York Street and Jay Street–MetroTech. I have to wonder if perhaps these people knew the (F) that just passed was only going to Kings Highway and they wanted to wait for a Coney Island-bound <F> instead. One trend that seemed to be holding was that the (Q)s made it into the terminal fairly promptly. Since the pattern has held nicely so far, I would advise going upstairs to take the (Q) once the <F> reaches West 8 Street to save 5 minutes. Whatever train supervision is doing with the (Q) is working pretty well. That said, the <F>’s run time from Broadway–Lafayette Street was no less than 48 minutes in the past 3 days I’ve ridden it—averaging 50~51 minutes …which also happens to be exactly the same as the (F)’s scheduled run time! Nevertheless, it should save people 5 minutes in practice—even for those going to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue, as long as one remembers to transfer to the (Q) upstairs at West 8 Street.

Tomorrow, I’m going to give the AM <F> another try. I haven’t ridden it since its debut day. I think that has more potential as it avoids the terminal woes that plague the PM <F>. I don’t know if the MTA will change up the PM <F>’s schedule to fix it, but as it stands, it’s terribly managed.

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9/19/2019 observations of the <F> departing Coney Island at 7:29 AM:

  • Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue: closed 7:28 (1 minute early when compared to scheduled 7:29 departure.)
  • West 8 Street: opened 7:30
  • West 8 Street: closed 7:30
  • Neptune Avenue: opened 7:32
  • Neptune Avenue: closed 7:32
  • Avenue X: opened 7:34
  • (There were 14 people in the car.)
  • Avenue X: closed 7:35
  • Avenue U: opened 7:35
  • (There were 19 people in the car.)
  • Avenue U: closed 7:36
  • Kings Highway: opened 7:37 (2 minutes early when compared to scheduled 7:39 arrival.)
  • (There were 25 people in the car.)
  • Kings Highway: closed 7:38
  • Avenue P: opened 7:39
  • (There were 32 people in the car.)
  • Avenue P: closed 7:40
  • Avenue N: opened 7:41
  • (There were 33 people in the car.)
  • Avenue N: closed 7:41
  • Bay Parkway: opened 7:42
  • (There were 34 people in the car.)
  • Bay Parkway: closed 7:43
  • Avenue I: opened 7:44
  • (There were 34 people in the car.)
  • Avenue I: closed 7:44
  • 18 Avenue: opened 7:45
  • (There were 40 people in the car. The car was SRO at this point.)
  • 18 Avenue: closed 7:45
  • Ditmas Avenue: opened 7:47
  • (The train held for a minute for the signal. There were approximately 46 people in the car.)
  • Ditmas Avenue: closed 7:48
  • Church Avenue: opened 7:50 (1 minute early when compared to scheduled 7:51 arrival.)
  • (Some people got off at this stop to wait for a local. There were approximately 55 people in the car.)
  • Church Avenue: closed 7:51
  • 7 Avenue: opened 7:54 (on-time when compared to scheduled 7:54 arrival.)
  • (There were over 64 people in the car.)
  • 7 Avenue: closed 7:55
  • (The <F> passed 4 Avenue–9 Street, and a (G) at 7:56.)
  • (The <F> passed Smith–9 Streets at 7:57.)
  • (The <F> passed Carroll Street at 7:58.)
  • (The <F> passed Bergen Street at 7:59. The train passed the station at full speed.)
  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: opened: 8:00 (1 minute late when compared to scheduled 7:59 arrival.)
  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: closed 8:01
  • York Street: opened 8:03
  • York Street: closed 8:03
  • East Broadway: opened 8:05
  • East Broadway: closed 8:06
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: opened 8:07
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: closed 8:07
  • 2 Avenue: opened 8:09
  • 2 Avenue: closed 8:09
  • (A (D) pulled up across the platform as well.)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: opened 8:10 (1 minute late when compared to scheduled 8:09 arrival.)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: closed 8:11

I kept a close eye on the number of people in my train car. The final count was 64+ people in the car after 7 Avenue. The car had half of that by the time it departed Avenue P. Up until its Broadway–Lafayette Street arrival, at no point did the number of people exceed 80. Interesting thing to note about the number of passengers contributed by some stations:

  • Lower Culver (south of Church Avenue) contributed 46 people to my car.
    • Avenue P: 7
    • Ditmas Avenue: 6
    • 18 Avenue: 6
    • Kings Highway: 6
    • Avenue U: 5
    • Bay Parkway: 1
    • Avenue N: 1
    • Avenue I: 0
  • Upper Culver (Church Avenue and 7 Avenue) contributed 18 people to my car.
    • Church Avenue: 9.
    • 7 Avenue: 9.

An interesting thing to note is how few people got on the train at Avenue N (1), Bay Parkway (1), and Avenue I (0). The super-slow speed passing through Carroll Street and Bergen Street is now gone. The train does slow down approaching the Bergen Street station, but otherwise passes through at “full speed.” I’m please that the AM <F> did not suffer from any delays on the road nor any inefficiencies in the schedule design.

Edited by CenSin
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On 9/17/2019 at 11:21 AM, RR503 said:

Re: timers, what are the speeds from 7th to Jay? If my memory serves me, it’s 30 into 4th, and then 35 off the viaduct, becoming 30 between Carroll and Bergen, and then 25 into Bergen Lower — all 2 shots. Is this correct? Thanks much! 

you would be correct.....

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