New F express schedule out

[Jemorie]

@CenSin, it looks like from your posts that the  is relatively lightly loaded on the outdoor portion of the Culver Line until closer to Church Avenue. So I assume that is when crowds start to really pick up. Whenever I am free, I’ll leave home early and get to the Stillwell end of the  and see how crowded trains get from then on. As stated before, the peak load point is 7th Avenue (express) or Bergen Street (local) where trains would (keyword: would) more or less be carrying approximately 145 people per car on 60 foot cars on a 4-minute headway during the rush.

Or maybe the express trains are scheduled too early in the AM rather than closer to the middle of the AM. Hmmm.

[Lex]

21 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

@CenSin, it looks like from your posts that the  is relatively lightly loaded on the outdoor portion of the Culver Line until closer to Church Avenue. So I assume that is when crowds start to really pick up. Whenever I am free, I’ll leave home early and get to the Stillwell end of the  and see how crowded trains get from then on. As stated before, the peak load point is 7th Avenue (express) or Bergen Street (local) where trains would (keyword: would) more or less be carrying approximately 145 people per car on 60 foot cars on a 4-minute headway during the rush.

Or maybe the express trains are scheduled too early in the AM rather than closer to the middle of the AM. Hmmm.

Well, that's also a bit hard to say. The  has a tendency to have long gaps and bunches of four...

[CenSin]

44 minutes ago, Lex said:

Well, that's also a bit hard to say. The  has a tendency to have long gaps and bunches of four...

I think expectations should be calibrated based on the loads on the . If the loads on the local are light, we’d expect similar results on the express. It would not be fair to set an unrealistic goal for the  and then expect it to meet that goal.

The bunching of trains is big factor that makes it hard to draw conclusions about demand from looking at the passenger load on the train. The passengers could easily be split between different trains that arrived back-to-back. Without knowing how long ago the last train served the station, the conclusions drawn must be taken with a grain of salt.

A better method would be to count the number of people in a specific train car at a specific station over a period of time. The sum of the number of people should be fairly representative of demand during that period regardless of the number of trains. Longer measurement periods are more accurate than shorter ones as shorter measurement periods are susceptible to noise from train arrival variations.

[Caelestor]

3 hours ago, Jemorie said:

@CenSin, it looks like from your posts that the  is relatively lightly loaded on the outdoor portion of the Culver Line until closer to Church Avenue. So I assume that is when crowds start to really pick up. Whenever I am free, I’ll leave home early and get to the Stillwell end of the  and see how crowded trains get from then on. As stated before, the peak load point is 7th Avenue (express) or Bergen Street (local) where trains would (keyword: would) more or less be carrying approximately 145 people per car on 60 foot cars on a 4-minute headway during the rush.

Or maybe the express trains are scheduled too early in the AM rather than closer to the middle of the AM. Hmmm.

The issue is that scheduling express trains during the peak of rush hour overcrowds the adjacent s because Bergen St to 7 Ave have headways double. 

I understand why the  is a thing, and it honestly could work, but it requires combined  to be more than the 15 tph it is today. That would only be possible with the  replacing the , hence all the talk about reconstructing Chrystie St (again) in the other thread.

[RedLine]

Terminating trains at 2nd Avenue only moves a chokepoint somewhere else on the F.

[CenSin]

Today’s PM was a much different experience. Delays were few if any, although the trains did bunch up at Church Avenue: a Kings Highway-bound , Coney Island-bound , and Coney Island-bound all stopped at the station one after another; that likely affects my observations as I noted train bunching’s effect on passenger load. The terminals were also not congested; the was able to pull in without any wait. A Manhattan-bound was actually pulling out of the West 8 Street station as the was pulling in. My guess is that there was some sort of train delay prior to the Kings Highway-bound that I saw at Broadway–Lafayette Street.

The total run time today turned out to be 43 minutes—pretty time competitive with the , , , and for once. 50~51 minutes for the to make the same trip is what it takes for the to make the trip from 14 Street–Union Square or the / to make the trip from 34 Street–Herald Square.

• (A Kings Highway-bound pulled into the station at 5:08 and left at 5:08—on-time. The Coney Island-bound followed at 5:12.)
• Broadway–Lafayette Street: opened 5:12 (1 minutes early compared to scheduled 5:13)
• Broadway–Lafayette Street: closed 5:13
• 2 Avenue: opened 5:14
• 2 Avenue: closed 5:14
• Delancey Street–Essex Street: opened 5:15
• (There was an estimated 100+ people in the last car.)
• Delancey Street–Essex Street: closed 5:16
• East Broadway: opened 5:17
• East Broadway: closed 5:17
• York Street: opened 5:19
• (There were people getting on and off the train, but not a perceptible decrease in number of people.)
• York Street: closed 5:20
• (Pulling into the station, some people squinted at the train’s exterior, presumably to check if the train was express. One person who did that did not get on the train.)
• Jay Street–MeteoTech: opened 5:21 (1 minute early compared to scheduled 5:22)
• (Here, the train became a lot less crowded, but still SRO. There were approximately 56 people in the last car. It was difficult to gauge from the interior, but compared to the number of people on the platform, it was approximately a 4:1 ratio,)
• Jay Street–MeteoTech: closed 5:22
• (The passed Bergen Street at 5:23.)
• (The passed Carroll Street and an at 5:24.)
• (The passed Smith–9 Street at 5:25, creeping slowly down the incline towards 4 Avenue–9 Street.)
• (The passed 4 Avenue–9 Street and a at 5:26.)
• 7 Avenue: opened 5:27 (2 minutes early compared to scheduled 5:29)
• (At this stop, about half of the car emptied, leaving a third of the seats available. There were 31 people in the last car. Although the was pulling in, the did not wait.)
• 7 Avenue: closed 5:28
• Church Avenue: opened 5:33 (on-time compared to scheduled 5:33)
• (Across the platform was a Kings Highway-bound which left the station first, although not before giving passengers an opportunity to transfer. Another Coney Island-bound pulled in shortly at 5:34. The did not wait for that train. There were 29 people in the last car.)
• Church Avenue: closed 5:34
• (During the slow creep up the ramp, the caught up on the local track, but the pulled into the station first.)
• Ditmas Avenue: opened 5:37
• (There were 27 people in the last car.)
• Ditmas Avenue: closed 5:38
• 18 Avenue: opened 5:38
• (There were 26 people in the last car.)
• 18 Avenue: closed 5:39
• Avenue I: opened 5:40
• Avenue I: closed 5:40
• Bay Parkway: opened 5:41
• Bay Parkway: closed 5:41
• Avenue N: opened 5:42
• (There were 23 people in the last car.)
• Avenue N: closed 5:43
• Avenue P: opened 5:44
• (There were 23 people in the last car.)
• Avenue P: closed 5:44
• Kings Highway: opened 5:45 (3 minutes early compared to scheduled 5:48)
• (There was no train on the middle track. Presumably the Kings Highway-bound went express to Kings Highway and then hightailed it out of there turning back towards Manhattan. There were 23 people in the last car—2 people got off, but 2 people also got on.)
• Kings Highway: closed 5:45
• Avenue U: opened 5:47
• (There were 22 people in the last car.)
• Avenue U: closed 5:48
• Avenue X: opened 5:49
• (There were 13 people in the last car.)
• Avenue X: closed 5:49
• Neptune Avenue: opened 5:51
• (There were 12 people in the last car.)
• Neptune Avenue: closed 5:51
• (A Manhattan-bound was pulling out of the station. There was no on the upper level.)
• West 8 Street: open 5:52
• (There were 8 people in the last car.)
• West 8 Street: closed 5:53
• Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue: opened 5:55 (7 minutes compared to scheduled 6:02)

After York Street, apparently, the largest number of people got off at these stations (in order of decreasing count):

• Jay Street–MetroTech: half of the train car or about 40~50
• 7 Avenue: 25
• Avenue X: 9
• Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue: 8

At the other stations, there were no more than 5.

Edited September 19, 2019 by CenSin

[Union Tpke]

Look what got mailed to me yesterday. While I asked for five, I was happy to get one.

IMG_3512 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_3513 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

[CenSin]

I compiled the data into a table with some highlights. Red highlights problem points. Green highlights points of excellent performance.

As you might guess:

• Going down to Carroll Street and Bergen Street from Smith–9 Streets is slow, and Bergen Street seems to be especially slow if there is an on the upper level or crossing ahead.
• In the opposite direction, Smith–9 Streets to 4 Avenue–9 Street seems to be the slow stretch.
• Occasionally, merging at Church Avenue will cause one train or the other to hold, but the train doesn’t get in the way at least.
• Avenue P is also a point of delay for southbound trains for some reason. One can guess that the terminal operations at Kings Highway are the cause.
• The track leading into the terminal from Neptune Avenue is often an area of delay. Taking the from West 8 Street–New York Aquarium helps avoid the delay usually, with very few exceptions.
• The 5:13 PM that is scheduled to arrive at Broadway–Lafayette Street has been late lately. I noticed that starting on the week of 11/18/2019 there was a new conductor making the announcements. I don’t know if that came with a change of train operator as well, but the train operator’s performance has not been very good.

Edited November 23, 2019 by CenSin
Replaced low-resolution image with high-resolution image

[CenSin]

2 hours ago, CenSin said:

I compiled the data into a table with some highlights. Red highlights problem points. Green highlights points of excellent performance.

As you might guess:

• Going down to Carroll Street and Bergen Street from Smith–9 Streets is slow, and Bergen Street seems to be especially slow if there is an on the upper level or crossing ahead.
• In the opposite direction, Smith–9 Streets to 4 Avenue–9 Street seems to be the slow stretch.
• Occasionally, merging at Church Avenue will cause one train or the other to hold, but the train doesn’t get in the way at least.
• Avenue P is also a point of delay for southbound trains for some reason. One can guess that the terminal operations at Kings Highway are the cause.
• The track leading into the terminal from Neptune Avenue is often an area of delay. Taking the from West 8 Street–New York Aquarium helps avoid the delay usually, with very few exceptions.
• The 5:13 PM that is scheduled to arrive at Broadway–Lafayette Street has been late lately. I noticed that starting on the week of 11/18/2019 there was a new conductor making the announcements. I don’t know if that came with a change of train operator as well, but the train operator’s performance has not been very good.

I should add that the yellow-tinted cells represent arrival and departure times of trains. Starting in November, I transferred to the trains at West 8 Street–New York Aquarium to avoid the waiting associated with the ’s “early” arrival. For the most part, it helped shave extra waiting time down to about a minute or less. On 1 rare occasion, the actually left first and the was left hanging; the Manhattan-bound train had very late train crew and it made a battery run straight out of the terminal.

[Calvin]

I noticed that with the Express and local: there was a time that they both arrive at Church Av. However, the express is held while local goes first Kings Hwy bound.

 

Also, the announcements on the first to Stillwell doesn't have the message that the C/R will mention: Please move through out the cars and stand clear of the doors and noting that weekday rush F is now available online and in-stations. Involving that this week is the new fall-winter pick for NYC Subway. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by Calvin

[bwwnyc123]

On Weekdays the fastest way to get from Coney Island into Manhattan is by taking the and transfer to Express at Brighton Beach.

[CenSin]

44 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

On Weekdays the fastest way to get from Coney Island into Manhattan is by taking the and transfer to Express at Brighton Beach.

That is actually more or less random. I noted it before when I had gotten the across the platform at Sheepshead Bay by luck. That didn’t happen the next day, despite getting on the same train.

If you catch a with no waiting time, your trip from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue and Broadway–Lafayette Street is 39 minutes. If you don’t catch a by Church Avenue, your trip will be at least 46 minutes—that will be true whether the next is right behind after you get to Prospect Park or you transfer to the to Bleecker Street. There are other shades of gray, however—like catching the at Kings Highway, Newkirk Plaza, or Church Avenue. Those transfers will get you to Broadway–Lafayette Street faster than whatever the can possibly muster. And to be realistic, it is probably a good choice most of the time despite the probability of getting a suboptimal commute since it is an available choice for most of the day. The only has 2 AM runs and 2 PM runs. Who the heck is going to chase after a specific train to shave 3 minutes on average when the affords the opportunity to get out the door at any time and probably still get a fast commute?

 

1 hour ago, Calvin said:

I noticed that with the Express and local: there was a time that they both arrive at Church Av. However, the express is held while local goes first Kings Hwy bound.

That happens a lot. One time, the went first, but the Kings Highway-bound behind went express, arriving at Kings Highway at about the same time. Getting priorities right is pretty difficult at Church Avenue and Bergen Street because of all the merges.

1 hour ago, Calvin said:

Also, the announcements on the first to Stillwell doesn't have the message that the C/R will mention: Please move through out the cars and stand clear of the doors and noting that weekday rush F is now available online and in-stations. Involving that this week is the new fall-winter pick for NYC Subway. 

The worse service I experienced starting 11/19/2019 seems to have coincided with the change in conductor. The first PM used to have the conductor who made those announcements. Those trains now arrive late and creep along a stretch of express tracks which have zero congestion.

Edited November 24, 2019 by CenSin

[bwwnyc123]

I know during AM & PM Rush Hours you really catch the at Brighton Beach. If there are no delays those trains are flying thru those Brighton Express Tracks. 

[CenSin]

4 hours ago, bwwnyc123 said:

I know during AM & PM Rush Hours you really catch the at Brighton Beach. If there are no delays those trains are flying thru those Brighton Express Tracks. 

The keyword is “catch.” For certain s, once you miss a , you're guaranteed not to catch another one for 10 minutes. The train frequencies aren't that great due to the fact that it just supplements service along other corridors. That said, the same goes for the : If you miss the train, it's all the rest of the day, adding 8 minutes to the trip.

Express service is only for those with the discipline to get to the station on-time every time. And even then, the results are based on luck (a.k.a.: factors out of your control).

[bwwnyc123]

They usually have two trains at Brighton Beach and could catch one from either the Manhattan platform or from the Coney Island platform.  

Edited November 24, 2019 by bwwnyc123

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, bwwnyc123 said:

They usually have two trains at Brighton Beach and could catch one from either the Manhattan platform or from the Coney Island platform.  

If by “catch,” you mean sitting in the train that is not moving… I don’t think that is functionally useful nor different from standing on the platform waiting the the train to come.

What most people desire is to get on a train which closes its doors and proceeds to the next station immediately—especially one that saves time. The problem with getting the to Manhattan from the is two-folds:

1. If the leaves Brighton Beach before the even makes it there, you may not encounter another until you get off at Prospect Park and wait. That means you do not save 7 minutes (which is the time saved that I’ve measured). It’s functionally equivalent to getting off at Brighton Beach and getting on the next train to leave, which is very stupid in my opinion.
2. If you end up catching the at any of the intermediate express stations, each one nearer to Prospect Park costs you about another 2 minutes in savings. The random nature of the ’s arrivals makes it always a gamble, adding 7 minutes of uncertainty on top of any other uncertainties in the commute. It is an undependable service for the purpose of saving time from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue, West 8 Street–New York Aquarium, and Ocean Parkway.

The would be great if its departures were only triggered by the arrival of a . Every trip would require a cross-platform transfer at Sheepshead Bay, but they would enable the possibility of a 39-minute commute from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street. This is something that the 7:07 AM has done, which provides a more reliable alternative, but its trade-off is obviously that you have to get on the train at exactly the right time and be willing to accept getting to work at 8 AM even if your shift starts at 9 AM. (I just ask my boss to change my schedule to accomodate.)

[P3F]

Honestly, the AM rush trains that come in from Coney Island Yard should pick passengers up at Coney Island, W 8 St, and Ocean Parkway. Ridership is not incredibly heavy at those stations, so it would not add a significant amount of time to those trips.

This would be similar to the morning trips stopping at Sea Beach stations on their way to the line's normal route.

[Union Tpke]

19 minutes ago, P3F said:

Honestly, the AM rush trains that come in from Coney Island Yard should pick passengers up at Coney Island, W 8 St, and Ocean Parkway. Ridership is not incredibly heavy at those stations, so it would not add a significant amount of time to those trips.

This would be similar to the morning trips stopping at Sea Beach stations on their way to the line's normal route.

The thing is, there are no conductors on those trains, which would increase the cost. I agree though.

[CenSin]

34 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

The thing is, there are no conductors on those trains, which would increase the cost. I agree though.

I mean, the  manages to get conductors at 86 Street. I don’t see what the barriers might be. Coney Island isn’t even as far from Brighton Beach as 86 Street is from Whitehall Street.

[CenSin]

Well, today’s 7:07 AM  took only 38 minutes—the best record I’ve recorded yet.

Station                       Arrival Time    Departure Time    Comment
Coney Island:                                 7:07
West 8 Street:                7:09            7:09
Neptune Avenue:               7:10            7:11
Avenue X:                     7:12            7:13
Avenue U:                     7:14            7:14
Kings Highway:                7:16            7:16              There was a work train on the middle track.
Avenue P:                     7:17            7:17
Avenue N:                     7:19            7:19
Bay Parkway:                  7:20            7:20
Avenue I:                     7:21            7:22
18 Avenue:                    7:23            7:23
Ditmas Avenue:                7:24            7:25
Church Avenue:                7:27            7:27
7 Avenue:                     7:31            7:31
4 Avenue–9 Street:                                              passed 7:32
Smith–9 Streets:                                                passed 7:33
Carroll Street:                                                 passed 7:34
Bergen Street:                                                  passed 7:35
Jay Street–MetroTech:         7:36            7:36              An (A) R179 train was pulling into the station, but the <F> did not wait for it.
York Street:                  7:38            7:38
East Broadway:                7:40            7:41
Delancey Street–Essex Street: 7:42            7:42
2 Avenue:                     7:43            7:44
Broadway–Lafayette Street:    7:45                              A (B) train was waiting across the platform.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by CenSin
R160 → R179

[Italianstallion]

7 hours ago, CenSin said:

Well, today’s 7:07 AM  took only 38 minutes—the best record I’ve recorded yet.

Station                       Arrival Time    Departure Time    Comment
Coney Island:                                 7:07
West 8 Street:                7:09            7:09
Neptune Avenue:               7:10            7:11
Avenue X:                     7:12            7:13
Avenue U:                     7:14            7:14
Kings Highway:                7:16            7:16              There was a work train on the middle track.
Avenue P:                     7:17            7:17
Avenue N:                     7:19            7:19
Bay Parkway:                  7:20            7:20
Avenue I:                     7:21            7:22
18 Avenue:                    7:23            7:23
Ditmas Avenue:                7:24            7:25
Church Avenue:                7:27            7:27
7 Avenue:                     7:31            7:31
4 Avenue–9 Street:                                              passed 7:32
Smith–9 Streets:                                                passed 7:33
Carroll Street:                                                 passed 7:34
Bergen Street:                                                  passed 7:35
Jay Street–MetroTech:         7:36            7:36              An (A) R179 train was pulling into the station, but the <F> did not wait for it.
York Street:                  7:38            7:38
East Broadway:                7:40            7:41
Delancey Street–Essex Street: 7:42            7:42
2 Avenue:                     7:43            7:44
Broadway–Lafayette Street:    7:45                              A (B) train was waiting across the platform.

 

Right on time, per schedule.

[Italianstallion]

7 hours ago, CenSin said:

Well, today’s 7:07 AM  took only 38 minutes—the best record I’ve recorded yet.

Station                       Arrival Time    Departure Time    Comment
Coney Island:                                 7:07
West 8 Street:                7:09            7:09
Neptune Avenue:               7:10            7:11
Avenue X:                     7:12            7:13
Avenue U:                     7:14            7:14
Kings Highway:                7:16            7:16              There was a work train on the middle track.
Avenue P:                     7:17            7:17
Avenue N:                     7:19            7:19
Bay Parkway:                  7:20            7:20
Avenue I:                     7:21            7:22
18 Avenue:                    7:23            7:23
Ditmas Avenue:                7:24            7:25
Church Avenue:                7:27            7:27
7 Avenue:                     7:31            7:31
4 Avenue–9 Street:                                              passed 7:32
Smith–9 Streets:                                                passed 7:33
Carroll Street:                                                 passed 7:34
Bergen Street:                                                  passed 7:35
Jay Street–MetroTech:         7:36            7:36              An (A) R179 train was pulling into the station, but the <F> did not wait for it.
York Street:                  7:38            7:38
East Broadway:                7:40            7:41
Delancey Street–Essex Street: 7:42            7:42
2 Avenue:                     7:43            7:44
Broadway–Lafayette Street:    7:45                              A (B) train was waiting across the platform.

 

What was the passenger load like?

[CenSin]

10 hours ago, Italianstallion said:

What was the passenger load like?

SRO, but not packed. The passenger contributions are as before, but less because 7:07 AM isn’t at the height of rush hour:

The would not miss many people skipping Avenue N, Bay Parkway, and Avenue I. The only thing is that skipping those stations would necessitate skipping Avenue U, Avenue P, and Ditmas Avenue. (But those stations are adjacent to express stations already.)

Edited November 26, 2019 by CenSin

[Trainmaster5]

22 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

The thing is, there are no conductors on those trains, which would increase the cost. I agree though.

There are no conductors on those trains because of budgetary reasons .The Train Operators report earlier than the Conductors to either okay the train for service, if not done by yard personnel, and/or to bring the train to the terminal. This way the conductor gets paid for 8 hours while the train operator might make 9+, for example. There were times in the past when both crew members got paid for the same amount of hours but that changed over the years. There was a time when any train movements over the road, put ins, layups, snow birds, required two people for safety reasons, but cost concerns overrode that reasoning eventually. Many ideas which appear to be sensible to outsiders, and RTO personnel, are quashed because of monetary concerns. It’s my contention that sometimes common sense should be the determining factor. Just my opinion. Carry on.

[P3F]

Today's first PM Express (5:10 from W 4 St) was sent local from Jay Street (5:27) because, according to the C/R, "our follower is way behind us". Checking Subway Time, the next is 10 minutes away. 

I know it's logical to do, but I still feel ripped off.