Jump to content
Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.
Italianstallion

New F express schedule out

Recommended Posts

@CenSin, it looks like from your posts that the (F) is relatively lightly loaded on the outdoor portion of the Culver Line until closer to Church Avenue. So I assume that is when crowds start to really pick up. Whenever I am free, I’ll leave home early and get to the Stillwell end of the (F)<F> and see how crowded trains get from then on. As stated before, the peak load point is 7th Avenue (express) or Bergen Street (local) where trains would (keyword: would) more or less be carrying approximately 145 people per car on 60 foot cars on a 4-minute headway during the rush.

Or maybe the express trains are scheduled too early in the AM rather than closer to the middle of the AM. Hmmm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

@CenSin, it looks like from your posts that the (F) is relatively lightly loaded on the outdoor portion of the Culver Line until closer to Church Avenue. So I assume that is when crowds start to really pick up. Whenever I am free, I’ll leave home early and get to the Stillwell end of the (F)<F> and see how crowded trains get from then on. As stated before, the peak load point is 7th Avenue (express) or Bergen Street (local) where trains would (keyword: would) more or less be carrying approximately 145 people per car on 60 foot cars on a 4-minute headway during the rush.

Or maybe the express trains are scheduled too early in the AM rather than closer to the middle of the AM. Hmmm.

Well, that's also a bit hard to say. The (F) has a tendency to have long gaps and bunches of four...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Lex said:

Well, that's also a bit hard to say. The (F) has a tendency to have long gaps and bunches of four...

I think expectations should be calibrated based on the loads on the (F). If the loads on the local are light, we’d expect similar results on the express. It would not be fair to set an unrealistic goal for the <F> and then expect it to meet that goal.

The bunching of trains is big factor that makes it hard to draw conclusions about demand from looking at the passenger load on the train. The passengers could easily be split between different trains that arrived back-to-back. Without knowing how long ago the last train served the station, the conclusions drawn must be taken with a grain of salt.

A better method would be to count the number of people in a specific train car at a specific station over a period of time. The sum of the number of people should be fairly representative of demand during that period regardless of the number of trains. Longer measurement periods are more accurate than shorter ones as shorter measurement periods are susceptible to noise from train arrival variations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jemorie said:

@CenSin, it looks like from your posts that the (F) is relatively lightly loaded on the outdoor portion of the Culver Line until closer to Church Avenue. So I assume that is when crowds start to really pick up. Whenever I am free, I’ll leave home early and get to the Stillwell end of the (F)<F> and see how crowded trains get from then on. As stated before, the peak load point is 7th Avenue (express) or Bergen Street (local) where trains would (keyword: would) more or less be carrying approximately 145 people per car on 60 foot cars on a 4-minute headway during the rush.

Or maybe the express trains are scheduled too early in the AM rather than closer to the middle of the AM. Hmmm.

The issue is that scheduling express trains during the peak of rush hour overcrowds the adjacent (F)s because Bergen St to 7 Ave have headways double. 

I understand why the <F> is a thing, and it honestly could work, but it requires combined (F)<F> to be more than the 15 tph it is today. That would only be possible with the (V) replacing the (M), hence all the talk about reconstructing Chrystie St (again) in the other thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today’s PM <F> was a much different experience. Delays were few if any, although the trains did bunch up at Church Avenue: a Kings Highway-bound (F), Coney Island-bound <F>, and Coney Island-bound (F) all stopped at the station one after another; that likely affects my observations as I noted train bunching’s effect on passenger load. The terminals were also not congested; the <F> was able to pull in without any wait. A Manhattan-bound (F) was actually pulling out of the West 8 Street station as the <F> was pulling in. My guess is that there was some sort of train delay prior to the Kings Highway-bound (F) that I saw at Broadway–Lafayette Street.

The total run time today turned out to be 43 minutes—pretty time competitive with the (B)(Q), (D), (N), and (Q) for once. 50~51 minutes for the (F) to make the same trip is what it takes for the (Q) to make the trip from 14 Street–Union Square or the (D)/(N) to make the trip from 34 Street–Herald Square.

  • (A Kings Highway-bound (F) pulled into the station at 5:08 and left at 5:08—on-time. The Coney Island-bound <F> followed at 5:12.)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: opened 5:12 (1 minutes early compared to scheduled 5:13)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street: closed 5:13
  • 2 Avenue: opened 5:14
  • 2 Avenue: closed 5:14
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: opened 5:15
  • (There was an estimated 100+ people in the last car.)
  • Delancey Street–Essex Street: closed 5:16
  • East Broadway: opened 5:17
  • East Broadway: closed 5:17
  • York Street: opened 5:19
  • (There were people getting on and off the train, but not a perceptible decrease in number of people.)
  • York Street: closed 5:20
  • (Pulling into the station, some people squinted at the train’s exterior, presumably to check if the train was express. One person who did that did not get on the train.)
  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: opened 5:21 (1 minute early compared to scheduled 5:22)
  • (Here, the train became a lot less crowded, but still SRO. There were approximately 56 people in the last car. It was difficult to gauge from the interior, but compared to the number of people on the platform, it was approximately a 4:1 ratio,)
  • Jay Street–MeteoTech: closed 5:22
  • (The <F> passed Bergen Street at 5:23.)
  • (The <F> passed Carroll Street and an (F) at 5:24.)
  • (The <F> passed Smith–9 Street at 5:25, creeping slowly down the incline towards 4 Avenue–9 Street.)
  • (The <F> passed 4 Avenue–9 Street and a (G) at 5:26.)
  • 7 Avenue: opened 5:27 (2 minutes early compared to scheduled 5:29)
  • (At this stop, about half of the car emptied, leaving a third of the seats available. There were 31 people in the last car. Although the (G) was pulling in, the <F> did not wait.)
  • 7 Avenue: closed 5:28
  • Church Avenue: opened 5:33 (on-time compared to scheduled 5:33)
  • (Across the platform was a Kings Highway-bound (F) which left the station first, although not before giving passengers an opportunity to transfer. Another Coney Island-bound (F) pulled in shortly at 5:34. The <F> did not wait for that train. There were 29 people in the last car.)
  • Church Avenue: closed 5:34
  • (During the slow creep up the ramp, the (F) caught up on the local track, but the <F> pulled into the station first.)
  • Ditmas Avenue: opened 5:37
  • (There were 27 people in the last car.)
  • Ditmas Avenue: closed 5:38
  • 18 Avenue: opened 5:38
  • (There were 26 people in the last car.)
  • 18 Avenue: closed 5:39
  • Avenue I: opened 5:40
  • Avenue I: closed 5:40
  • Bay Parkway: opened 5:41
  • Bay Parkway: closed 5:41
  • Avenue N: opened 5:42
  • (There were 23 people in the last car.)
  • Avenue N: closed 5:43
  • Avenue P: opened 5:44
  • (There were 23 people in the last car.)
  • Avenue P: closed 5:44
  • Kings Highway: opened 5:45 (3 minutes early compared to scheduled 5:48)
  • (There was no train on the middle track. Presumably the Kings Highway-bound (F) went express to Kings Highway and then hightailed it out of there turning back towards Manhattan. There were 23 people in the last car—2 people got off, but 2 people also got on.)
  • Kings Highway: closed 5:45
  • Avenue U: opened 5:47
  • (There were 22 people in the last car.)
  • Avenue U: closed 5:48
  • Avenue X: opened 5:49
  • (There were 13 people in the last car.)
  • Avenue X: closed 5:49
  • Neptune Avenue: opened 5:51
  • (There were 12 people in the last car.)
  • Neptune Avenue: closed 5:51
  • (A Manhattan-bound (F) was pulling out of the station. There was no (Q) on the upper level.)
  • West 8 Street: open 5:52
  • (There were 8 people in the last car.)
  • West 8 Street: closed 5:53
  • Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue: opened 5:55 (7 minutes compared to scheduled 6:02)

After York Street, apparently, the largest number of people got off at these stations (in order of decreasing count):

  • Jay Street–MetroTech: half of the train car or about 40~50
  • 7 Avenue: 25
  • Avenue X: 9
  • Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue: 8

At the other stations, there were no more than 5.

Edited by CenSin
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I compiled the data into a table with some highlights. Red highlights problem points. Green highlights points of excellent performance.

sKJIwhC.png

As you might guess:

  • Going down to Carroll Street and Bergen Street from Smith–9 Streets is slow, and Bergen Street seems to be especially slow if there is an (F) on the upper level or crossing ahead.
  • In the opposite direction, Smith–9 Streets to 4 Avenue–9 Street seems to be the slow stretch.
  • Occasionally, merging at Church Avenue will cause one train or the other to hold, but the (G) train doesn’t get in the way at least.
  • Avenue P is also a point of delay for southbound trains for some reason. One can guess that the terminal operations at Kings Highway are the cause.
  • The track leading into the terminal from Neptune Avenue is often an area of delay. Taking the (Q) from West 8 Street–New York Aquarium helps avoid the delay usually, with very few exceptions.
  • The 5:13 PM <F> that is scheduled to arrive at Broadway–Lafayette Street has been late lately. I noticed that starting on the week of 11/18/2019 there was a new conductor making the announcements. I don’t know if that came with a change of train operator as well, but the train operator’s performance has not been very good.
Edited by CenSin
Replaced low-resolution image with high-resolution image
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CenSin said:

I compiled the data into a table with some highlights. Red highlights problem points. Green highlights points of excellent performance.

sKJIwhC.png

As you might guess:

  • Going down to Carroll Street and Bergen Street from Smith–9 Streets is slow, and Bergen Street seems to be especially slow if there is an (F) on the upper level or crossing ahead.
  • In the opposite direction, Smith–9 Streets to 4 Avenue–9 Street seems to be the slow stretch.
  • Occasionally, merging at Church Avenue will cause one train or the other to hold, but the (G) train doesn’t get in the way at least.
  • Avenue P is also a point of delay for southbound trains for some reason. One can guess that the terminal operations at Kings Highway are the cause.
  • The track leading into the terminal from Neptune Avenue is often an area of delay. Taking the (Q) from West 8 Street–New York Aquarium helps avoid the delay usually, with very few exceptions.
  • The 5:13 PM <F> that is scheduled to arrive at Broadway–Lafayette Street has been late lately. I noticed that starting on the week of 11/18/2019 there was a new conductor making the announcements. I don’t know if that came with a change of train operator as well, but the train operator’s performance has not been very good.

I should add that the yellow-tinted cells represent arrival and departure times of (Q) trains. Starting in November, I transferred to the (Q) trains at West 8 Street–New York Aquarium to avoid the waiting associated with the <F>’s “early” arrival. For the most part, it helped shave extra waiting time down to about a minute or less. On 1 rare occasion, the <F> actually left first and the (Q) was left hanging; the Manhattan-bound train had very late train crew and it made a battery run straight out of the terminal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I noticed that with the <F> Express and (F) local: there was a time that they both arrive at Church Av. However, the express is held while local goes first Kings Hwy bound.

 

Also, the announcements on the first <F> to Stillwell doesn't have the message that the C/R will mention: Please move through out the cars and stand clear of the doors and noting that weekday rush F is now available online and in-stations. Involving that this week is the new fall-winter pick for NYC Subway. 

Edited by Calvin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On Weekdays the fastest way to get from Coney Island into Manhattan is by taking the (Q) and transfer to (B) Express at Brighton Beach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

On Weekdays the fastest way to get from Coney Island into Manhattan is by taking the (Q) and transfer to (B) Express at Brighton Beach.

That is actually more or less random. I noted it before when I had gotten the (B) across the platform at Sheepshead Bay by luck. That didn’t happen the next day, despite getting on the same (Q) train.

If you catch a (B) with no waiting time, your trip from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue and Broadway–Lafayette Street is 39 minutes. If you don’t catch a (B) by Church Avenue, your trip will be at least 46 minutes—that will be true whether the next (B) is right behind after you get to Prospect Park or you transfer to the (6) to Bleecker Street. There are other shades of gray, however—like catching the (B) at Kings Highway, Newkirk Plaza, or Church Avenue. Those transfers will get you to Broadway–Lafayette Street faster than whatever the (Q)(6) can possibly muster. And to be realistic, it is probably a good choice most of the time despite the probability of getting a suboptimal commute since it is an available choice for most of the day. The <F> only has 2 AM runs and 2 PM runs. Who the heck is going to chase after a specific train to shave 3 minutes on average when the (Q)(B) affords the opportunity to get out the door at any time and probably still get a fast commute?

 

1 hour ago, Calvin said:

I noticed that with the <F> Express and (F) local: there was a time that they both arrive at Church Av. However, the express is held while local goes first Kings Hwy bound.

That happens a lot. One time, the <F> went first, but the Kings Highway-bound (F) behind went express, arriving at Kings Highway at about the same time. Getting priorities right is pretty difficult at Church Avenue and Bergen Street because of all the merges.

1 hour ago, Calvin said:

Also, the announcements on the first <F> to Stillwell doesn't have the message that the C/R will mention: Please move through out the cars and stand clear of the doors and noting that weekday rush F is now available online and in-stations. Involving that this week is the new fall-winter pick for NYC Subway. 

The worse <F> service I experienced starting 11/19/2019 seems to have coincided with the change in conductor. The first PM <F> used to have the conductor who made those announcements. Those trains now arrive late and creep along a stretch of express tracks which have zero congestion.

Edited by CenSin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know during AM & PM Rush Hours you really catch the (B) at Brighton Beach. If there are no delays those trains are flying thru those Brighton Express Tracks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, bwwnyc123 said:

I know during AM & PM Rush Hours you really catch the (B) at Brighton Beach. If there are no delays those trains are flying thru those Brighton Express Tracks. 

The keyword is “catch.” For certain (Q)s, once you miss a (B), you're guaranteed not to catch another one for 10 minutes. The (B) train frequencies aren't that great due to the fact that it just supplements service along other corridors. That said, the same goes for the <F>: If you miss the train, it's all (F) the rest of the day, adding 8 minutes to the trip.

Express service is only for those with the discipline to get to the station on-time every time. And even then, the results are based on luck (a.k.a.: factors out of your control).

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They usually have two (B) trains at Brighton Beach and could catch one from either the Manhattan platform or from the Coney Island platform.  

Edited by bwwnyc123

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bwwnyc123 said:

They usually have two (B) trains at Brighton Beach and could catch one from either the Manhattan platform or from the Coney Island platform.  

If by “catch,” you mean sitting in the train that is not moving… I don’t think that is functionally useful nor different from standing on the platform waiting the the train to come.

What most people desire is to get on a train which closes its doors and proceeds to the next station immediately—especially one that saves time. The problem with getting the (B) to Manhattan from the (Q) is two-folds:

  1. If the (B) leaves Brighton Beach before the (Q) even makes it there, you may not encounter another (B) until you get off at Prospect Park and wait. That means you do not save 7 minutes (which is the time saved that I’ve measured). It’s functionally equivalent to getting off at Brighton Beach and getting on the next train to leave, which is very stupid in my opinion.
  2. If you end up catching the (B) at any of the intermediate express stations, each one nearer to Prospect Park costs you about another 2 minutes in savings. The random nature of the (B)’s arrivals makes it always a gamble, adding 7 minutes of uncertainty on top of any other uncertainties in the commute. It is an undependable service for the purpose of saving time from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue, West 8 Street–New York Aquarium, and Ocean Parkway.

The (B) would be great if its departures were only triggered by the arrival of a (Q). Every trip would require a cross-platform transfer at Sheepshead Bay, but they would enable the possibility of a 39-minute commute from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to Broadway–Lafayette Street. This is something that the 7:07 AM <F> has done, which provides a more reliable alternative, but its trade-off is obviously that you have to get on the train at exactly the right time and be willing to accept getting to work at 8 AM even if your shift starts at 9 AM. (I just ask my boss to change my schedule to accomodate.)

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, the AM rush (B) trains that come in from Coney Island Yard should pick passengers up at Coney Island, W 8 St, and Ocean Parkway. Ridership is not incredibly heavy at those stations, so it would not add a significant amount of time to those trips.

This would be similar to the morning (W) trips stopping at Sea Beach stations on their way to the line's normal route.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, P3F said:

Honestly, the AM rush (B) trains that come in from Coney Island Yard should pick passengers up at Coney Island, W 8 St, and Ocean Parkway. Ridership is not incredibly heavy at those stations, so it would not add a significant amount of time to those trips.

This would be similar to the morning (W) trips stopping at Sea Beach stations on their way to the line's normal route.

The thing is, there are no conductors on those trains, which would increase the cost. I agree though.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

The thing is, there are no conductors on those trains, which would increase the cost. I agree though.

I mean, the (W) manages to get conductors at 86 Street. I don’t see what the barriers might be. Coney Island isn’t even as far from Brighton Beach as 86 Street is from Whitehall Street.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, today’s 7:07 AM <F> took only 38 minutes—the best record I’ve recorded yet.

Station                       Arrival Time    Departure Time    Comment
Coney Island:                                 7:07
West 8 Street:                7:09            7:09
Neptune Avenue:               7:10            7:11
Avenue X:                     7:12            7:13
Avenue U:                     7:14            7:14
Kings Highway:                7:16            7:16              There was a work train on the middle track.
Avenue P:                     7:17            7:17
Avenue N:                     7:19            7:19
Bay Parkway:                  7:20            7:20
Avenue I:                     7:21            7:22
18 Avenue:                    7:23            7:23
Ditmas Avenue:                7:24            7:25
Church Avenue:                7:27            7:27
7 Avenue:                     7:31            7:31
4 Avenue–9 Street:                                              passed 7:32
Smith–9 Streets:                                                passed 7:33
Carroll Street:                                                 passed 7:34
Bergen Street:                                                  passed 7:35
Jay Street–MetroTech:         7:36            7:36              An (A) R179 train was pulling into the station, but the <F> did not wait for it.
York Street:                  7:38            7:38
East Broadway:                7:40            7:41
Delancey Street–Essex Street: 7:42            7:42
2 Avenue:                     7:43            7:44
Broadway–Lafayette Street:    7:45                              A (B) train was waiting across the platform.

 

Edited by CenSin
R160 → R179
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, CenSin said:

Well, today’s 7:07 AM <F> took only 38 minutes—the best record I’ve recorded yet.


Station                       Arrival Time    Departure Time    Comment
Coney Island:                                 7:07
West 8 Street:                7:09            7:09
Neptune Avenue:               7:10            7:11
Avenue X:                     7:12            7:13
Avenue U:                     7:14            7:14
Kings Highway:                7:16            7:16              There was a work train on the middle track.
Avenue P:                     7:17            7:17
Avenue N:                     7:19            7:19
Bay Parkway:                  7:20            7:20
Avenue I:                     7:21            7:22
18 Avenue:                    7:23            7:23
Ditmas Avenue:                7:24            7:25
Church Avenue:                7:27            7:27
7 Avenue:                     7:31            7:31
4 Avenue–9 Street:                                              passed 7:32
Smith–9 Streets:                                                passed 7:33
Carroll Street:                                                 passed 7:34
Bergen Street:                                                  passed 7:35
Jay Street–MetroTech:         7:36            7:36              An (A) R179 train was pulling into the station, but the <F> did not wait for it.
York Street:                  7:38            7:38
East Broadway:                7:40            7:41
Delancey Street–Essex Street: 7:42            7:42
2 Avenue:                     7:43            7:44
Broadway–Lafayette Street:    7:45                              A (B) train was waiting across the platform.

 

Right on time, per schedule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, CenSin said:

Well, today’s 7:07 AM <F> took only 38 minutes—the best record I’ve recorded yet.


Station                       Arrival Time    Departure Time    Comment
Coney Island:                                 7:07
West 8 Street:                7:09            7:09
Neptune Avenue:               7:10            7:11
Avenue X:                     7:12            7:13
Avenue U:                     7:14            7:14
Kings Highway:                7:16            7:16              There was a work train on the middle track.
Avenue P:                     7:17            7:17
Avenue N:                     7:19            7:19
Bay Parkway:                  7:20            7:20
Avenue I:                     7:21            7:22
18 Avenue:                    7:23            7:23
Ditmas Avenue:                7:24            7:25
Church Avenue:                7:27            7:27
7 Avenue:                     7:31            7:31
4 Avenue–9 Street:                                              passed 7:32
Smith–9 Streets:                                                passed 7:33
Carroll Street:                                                 passed 7:34
Bergen Street:                                                  passed 7:35
Jay Street–MetroTech:         7:36            7:36              An (A) R179 train was pulling into the station, but the <F> did not wait for it.
York Street:                  7:38            7:38
East Broadway:                7:40            7:41
Delancey Street–Essex Street: 7:42            7:42
2 Avenue:                     7:43            7:44
Broadway–Lafayette Street:    7:45                              A (B) train was waiting across the platform.

 

What was the passenger load like?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Italianstallion said:

What was the passenger load like?

SRO, but not packed. The passenger contributions are as before, but less because 7:07 AM isn’t at the height of rush hour:

The <F> would not miss many people skipping Avenue N, Bay Parkway, and Avenue I. The only thing is that skipping those stations would necessitate skipping Avenue U, Avenue P, and Ditmas Avenue. (But those stations are adjacent to express stations already.)

Edited by CenSin
  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

The thing is, there are no conductors on those trains, which would increase the cost. I agree though.

There are no conductors on those trains because of budgetary reasons .The Train Operators report earlier than the Conductors to either okay the train for service, if not done by yard personnel, and/or to bring the train to the terminal. This way the conductor gets paid for 8 hours while the train operator might make 9+, for example. There were times in the past when both crew members got paid for the same amount of hours but that changed over the years. There was a time when any train movements over the road, put ins, layups, snow birds, required two people for safety reasons, but cost concerns overrode that reasoning eventually. Many ideas which appear to be sensible to outsiders, and RTO personnel, are quashed because of monetary concerns. It’s my contention that sometimes common sense should be the determining factor. Just my opinion. Carry on.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today's first PM Express (5:10 from W 4 St) was sent local from Jay Street (5:27) because, according to the C/R, "our follower is way behind us". Checking Subway Time, the next (F) is 10 minutes away. 

I know it's logical to do, but I still feel ripped off.

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.