Update on the Release of the Bronx Bus Network Redesign Final Plan

[RailRunRob]

3 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

So is that it? This is final? Are we going to lose our express bus service?

No there's more options for input.

Edited October 23, 2019 by RailRunRob

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

23 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

 

What depots does the BxM1, 2, and 11 run out of on weekends?

I misinterpreted the document. I thought that all weekend service was being eliminated on the routes (except for the BxM3), since I only saw the weekday spans. After seeing the full spans, the plan as a whole just sounds even dumber. See my edited post above.

Edited October 23, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven
dumber

[paulrivera]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

So is that it? This is final? Are we going to lose our express bus service?

Of course not. They done pissed off both Co-op City and Riverdale.

The  has no clue who they're messing with.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

16 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

No there's more options for input.

There's still a final outreach phase (community board and final input) as shown on the timeline diagram.

The same thing happened on Staten Island. What it boils down to is elected officials making a huge stink about this along with express bus riders. The exact (final) plan for the Staten Island buses was slightly tweaked before it was implemented. While it shouldn't be surprising that something like this happened, it still is extremely concerning. No way would the affected communities let this slide by. In general, the Bronx tends to be more vocal when it comes to bus service across the board (local and express). While I highly doubt the existing service levels would be 100% retained, we have yet to see how that changes.

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

10 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

I read in one of the  's materials a few months ago that they wanted to make XX million dollars in cuts to MTA Bus in 2020.

The ax was gonna come no matter what.

Next up: The Long Island Rail Road.

Assuming the MF-er is still there, the bean counter that does the Far Rockaway line in the morning is named Fred.... F*** that SOB....

Matter fact, f*** the LIRR.

5 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

2 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

So the bean counters are back at it again with the express bus cuts.

Theoretically, what this means is that depots with lots of express bus routes would essentially be operating at similar capacities, with overall less service. They're cutting buses but are still making them deadhead from Manhattan back to The Bronx during the morning and early midday (and vice-versa during the late midday, afternoon, and evening). In what world does this make sense? The amount of time the bus takes to go to & from Manhattan, and then start another trip to Manhattan would be virtually the same as running the buses inbound, deadheading them to their Bronx terminal, and placing them into service again. I don't know who the genius behind that was, but this is so embarrassing that such a concept isn't even understood.  

They talk about direct this and that, but don't talk about the frequency changes. If the BxM4/BxM5 proposal is the new final product, they might as well have left the BxM4 routing alone. Also, at the very least the BxM11 could have been extended to Woodlawn to provide off-peak service there, but I'm pretty sure cOsT went into that too. 

And on the local side, the M100 and Bx15 truncations are still on the table on the local side. Not only that, but overnight Bx15 service will be reduced.

I misinterpreted the document. I thought that all weekend service was being eliminated on the routes (except for the BxM3), since I only saw the weekday spans. After seeing the full spans, the plan as a whole just sounds even number. See my edited post above.

Noted.

But yeah, the whole spiel about direct/straight this & that, AFAIC went out the window when they categorized the Bx19 as such & stated that as part of the reason it would be left alone in the initial draft plan.... While the Bx15 has that same 'L' shaped routing, but opted to split the thing at the Hub.....

 

 

[RailRunRob]

10 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

There's still a final outreach phase (community board and final input) as shown on the timeline diagram.

The same thing happened on Staten Island. What it boils down to is elected officials making a huge stink about this along with express bus riders. The exact (final) plan for the Staten Island buses was slightly tweaked before it was implemented. While it shouldn't be surprising that something like this happened, it still is extremely concerning. No way would the affected communities let this slide by. In general, the Bronx tends to be more vocal when it comes to bus service across the board (local and express). While I highly doubt the existing service levels would be 100% retained, we have yet to see how that changes.

 

For sure Co-Op isn't going to let this slide Especially being a top five express route.

[RailRunRob]

So question how does the 7 ranked Express MTA Bus route (BXM10) Get all day service 5:30am-10:00pm and the 1&2 ranked dont? (BMX7/9) Just noticed that.

[Melbx15]

I wished the west Side of the Bronx had spoken out like how the east side did most of these changes are gonna have people come out of their pockets for another $2.75 or even worse this plan is going to drive folks to consider using Lyft or Uber 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Melbx15

[Q43 Floral Park]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

I'd willingly trade BxM3 service north of 262nd Street for Sunday service. (Seriously, why is that still a thing?)

well they could but that would decrease ridership and increase the deadhead (its the shortest one after the BxM7) for starters. After looking at this report, they'd probably use the new terminal at 262 as a means to cut the AM Super Express runs (saying it won't carry well from 262-246 only), then we have less buses that are more crowded running the whole route...

my BxM3 stop is still on the chopping block after going to the meeting and explaining it's on an isolated hill without any alternatives. so I don't we need trade, I think we need to demand an explanation for how we are supposed to accept 400+ stop cuts without seeing stop by stop ridership for every route or these drastic midday/sunday express cuts without seeing the average passenger counts on the runs in danger

[trainfan22]

Didn't read the whole thread but skimmed though it, I normally don't post in these threads as they are not cup of tea, and I don't live in the BX, but I saw this thread was labeled "hot" so I came in to see what the fuss is about. Anyway RIP to off peak BK service on the SC express routes if the Bronx ones are being cut this bad. I thought the most of the Bronx expresses were well used off peak, especially compared to the BM's. Weird they added a whole new off peak express route in SI (SIM 2 which got cut and later on SIM33) but BX expresses are getting gutted.

 

 

 

[Lil 57]

Seems like the  is trying to go to the way of the BM's for most of the Bronx Express Routes, having inbound service end in the afternoon (before the PM rush) and having outbound service start in the early-mid afternoon. What are people supposed to do if they need to get to the city after 5? Take a local bus to the subway?

It the  dares go with this plan, congestion pricing would have to be blocked, since people in those transit deserts would have no efficient transit options and driving/taking car service into Manhattan would become the best option for them, making it no sense to penalize these people that have no other efficient transit options.

Last year, every Bronx express bus route (save the BxM18) saw an increase in riders, the  should be increasing express bus service, not cutting them.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Lil 57

[Lex]

42 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

Seems like the  is trying to go to the way of the BM's for most of the Bronx Express Routes, having inbound service end in the afternoon (before the PM rush) and having outbound service start in the early-mid afternoon. What are people supposed to do if they need to get to the city after 5? Take a local bus to the subway?

This is far more viable in the Bronx than in Queens or on that rock sitting closer to NJ than Brooklyn. (I'm not saying that I would do that, just that it's nowhere near as bad up there as in some other areas.)

46 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

It the  dares go with this plan, congestion pricing would have to be blocked, since people in those transit deserts would have no efficient transit options and driving/taking car service into Manhattan would become the best option for them, making it no sense to penalize these people that have no other efficient transit options.

Yes, let's do absolutely nothing to prevent a bad situation from getting worse. That's a great idea. /s

[RailRunRob]

9 minutes ago, Lex said:

This is far more viable in the Bronx than in Queens or on that rock sitting closer to NJ than Brooklyn. (I'm not saying that I would do that, just that it's nowhere near as bad up there as in some other areas.)

Not sure about that.  Parts of the Bronx have 1Hour plus commutes especially to lower Manhattan. That's on par or longer then some parts of SI.

[RR503]

3 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Not sure about that.  Parts of the Bronx have 1Hour plus commutes especially to lower Manhattan. That's on par or longer then some parts of SI.

Throwing my hat in the express bus discussion (and fully recognizing that this take will get my head bitten off), I see long term the express network definitely being something that should be trimmed. Folks who say that it's super expensive to operate are...absolutely right. Subsidy is about twelve bucks per rider, or more than NYC ferry. Obviously can't cut w/o viable alternatives, but given how (relatively speaking) low volume the network is, leveraging commuter trains and improvements to local subway and bus service as ways to redistribute those resources is likely the wisest fiscal path on a 3-7 year time horizon. 

It's worth noting that, even today, the scheduled running time of the BxM7 from Dreiser to 51 St is almost exactly equal to the time one achieves w/ the . 

Edited October 23, 2019 by RR503

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Throwing my hat in the express bus discussion (and fully recognizing that this take will get my head bitten off), I see long term the express network definitely being something that should be trimmed. Folks who say that it's super expensive to operate are...absolutely right. Subsidy is about twelve bucks per rider, or more than NYC ferry. Obviously can't cut w/o viable alternatives, but given how (relatively speaking) low volume the network is, leveraging commuter trains and improvements to local subway and bus service as ways to redistribute those resources is likely the wisest fiscal path on a 3-7 year time horizon. 

Oh please. With all due respect, you are talking out of your ass. It is very easy to say how we should cut this or that when you HAVE viable transit options. People in the outer boroughs have always been neglected. There’s been no subway expansion in decades. We have entire swaths of areas where there are no subways, so the express buses were what we were given in two fare zones. I am sick of hearing this nonsense. We are taxpayers just like residents in subway rich areas and the little bullshit service we get we should keep until they’re ready to fully commit to building out a viable transit system for all. They can’t even provide the service on the schedules. On some express bus lines, we get two little buses an hour, and they can’t even provide that. Constant missing buses which makes ridership look poor, when in reality the service is unreliable. 

The situation on Staten Island was bad, but this one really takes the cake. So many areas have nothing but express buses in the Bronx, with hilly terrain to boot, and to have service cut like this will cause many serious hardship.  I moved to where I live now because of the transit options, and now I may have to reconsider that OR consider driving into Manhattan. The shuttle buses don’t run on weekends to Metro-North here, and on top of that the  is constantly knocked out for track work, so that doesn’t leave many options, and taking the unreliable local bus all the way to the  and coming that way is another headache or the  . The subway situation despite the  ‘s claims is still a disaster, even within Manhattan. I have given up on it. The  is a mess, and the  line continues to worsen.

[RailRunRob]

16 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Throwing my hat in the express bus discussion (and fully recognizing that this take will get my head bitten off), I see long term the express network definitely being something that should be trimmed. Folks who say that it's super expensive to operate are...absolutely right. Subsidy is about twelve bucks per rider, or more than NYC ferry. Obviously can't cut w/o viable alternatives, but given how (relatively speaking) low volume the network is, leveraging commuter trains and improvements to local subway and bus service as ways to redistribute those resources is likely the wisest fiscal path on a 3-7 year time horizon. 

I agree with you fully have a point everytime I see a BMX4 run empty that point is very valid. But I do think there's exceptions traveling to Co-Op over the last year I honestly dont think ive seen any bus at less than 60-70% capacity with some runs being standing room only. So when I see the BMX10 un touched I have to ask why Especially with a community of over 40K people using the BXM7.  To my point with travel time from Co-Op Ive waited 20-25 mins for a local bus plus a 15 min ride to Pelham Bay then another 30 on the  to 125th plus the time to Midtown or lower Manhattan. Every time I travel up there I reflect on my Measly 20-25 min ride to Eastern Parkway or Franklin. I dont know how people do that everyday. I'd go crazy or just find a office in White Plains and drive. lol.

Edited October 23, 2019 by RailRunRob

[RR503]

6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Oh please. With all due respect, you are talking out of your ass. It is very easy to say how we should cut this or that when you HAVE viable transit options. People in the outer boroughs have always been neglected. There’s been no subway expansion in decades. We have entire swaths of areas where there are no subways, so the express buses were what we were given in two fare zones. I am sick of hearing this nonsense. We are taxpayers just like residents in subway rich areas and the little bullshit service we get we should keep until they’re ready to fully commit to building out a viable transit system for all. They can’t even provide the service on the schedules. On some express bus lines, we get two little buses an hour, and they can’t even provide that. Constant missing buses which makes ridership look poor, when in reality the service is unreliable. 

18 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Throwing my hat in the express bus discussion (and fully recognizing that this take will get my head bitten off), I see long term the express network definitely being something that should be trimmed. Folks who say that it's super expensive to operate are...absolutely right. Subsidy is about twelve bucks per rider, or more than NYC ferry. Obviously can't cut w/o viable alternatives, but given how (relatively speaking) low volume the network is, leveraging commuter trains and improvements to local subway and bus service as ways to redistribute those resources is likely the wisest fiscal path on a 3-7 year time horizon. 

It's worth noting that, even today, the scheduled running time of the BxM7 from Dreiser to 51 St is almost exactly equal to the time one achieves w/ the . 

I also lived in the outer boroughs and very much felt the pains of commutation/intra-boro travel. But given the low volume/high cost of express bus service, I see this as being a greatest good for the greatest number issue. Again, we need to absolutely provide alternatives to the network, but that should be the aim -- preserving it ad infinitum adds a serious financial burden to the agency. 

3 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

I agree with you fully have a point everytime I see a BMX4 run empty that point is very valid. But I do think there's exceptions traveling to Co-Op over the last year I honestly dont think ive seen the any bus at less than 60-70% capacity with some runs being standing room only. So when I see the BMX10 un touched I have to ask why Especially with a community of over 40K people using the BXM7.  To my point with travel time from Ive waited 20-25 mins for a local bus plus a 15 min ride to Pelham Bay then another 30 on the  to 125th plus the time to Midtown or lower Manhattan. Every time I travel up there I reflect on my Measly 20-25 min ride to Eastern Parkway or Franklin. I dont know how people do that everyday. I'd go crazy or just find a office in White Plains and drive. lol.

Oh, yes, the  can be garbage and the BxM7 gets good ridership. But that neither negates the fact that the  could be a lot better with even just a few million in TLC from the agency nor the fact that even a fully loaded express bus requires a large per-rider subsidy to, you know, run -- and doesn't begin touch on the medium-term prospects for (much more economical but faster) MNR service to the south end of the complex (which I truly hope will come with bus connections). 

Edited October 23, 2019 by RR503

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

23 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Throwing my hat in the express bus discussion (and fully recognizing that this take will get my head bitten off), I see long term the express network definitely being something that should be trimmed. Folks who say that it's super expensive to operate are...absolutely right. Subsidy is about twelve bucks per rider, or more than NYC ferry. Obviously can't cut w/o viable alternatives, but given how (relatively speaking) low volume the network is, leveraging commuter trains and improvements to local subway and bus service as ways to redistribute those resources is likely the wisest fiscal path on a 3-7 year time horizon. 

It's worth noting that, even today, the scheduled running time of the BxM7 from Dreiser to 51 St is almost exactly equal to the time one achieves w/ the . 

Absolutely not. Most express buses run in areas where the subway and LIRR/MNRR don't reach (either in Manhattan, the outerboroughs, or both). Some routes obviously are outliers, but they can still get ridership because the subway sucks and/or they serve other outerlying areas as well.  It's insulting when the subway, MNRR and LIRR fares had relatively small to no increases in the recent fare hike, while Express Bus fares did. Also, at least for LIRR,  all outdated policies (Double pay for operating both electric & diesel in one shift? Really?) should be eliminated before any sort of service cut occurs. 

No 21st century transportation network works being rail-oriented. It needs bus, rail, and other applicable modes integrated together. This is also part of the reason why express bus riders get shafted the most. They clearly don't care, when they've literally ran express bus routes into ground in order to ultimately cut them under the basis of "low ridership" when it was convenient. When was the last time you've heard the MTA advertise an express bus route? 

As for your last point, that only works on a good day. Let's be honest, with how terrible local bus and subway service is, how many days of the year does this realistically apply to?

Edited October 23, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[RailRunRob]

2 minutes ago, RR503 said:

But that neither negates the fact that the  could be a lot better with even just a few million in TLC from the agency nor the fact that even a fully loaded express bus requires a large per-rider subsidy to, you know, run -- and doesn't touch on the medium-term prospects for MNR service to the south end of the complex (which I truly hope will come with bus connections). 

Points taken. High hopes for the MNR prospects could be a major game changer for the area.

[RailRunRob]

25 minutes ago, RR503 said:

It's worth noting that, even today, the scheduled running time of the BxM7 from Dreiser to 51 St is almost exactly equal to the time one achieves w/ the . 

This is AM Rush? 

[RR503]

9 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Most express buses run in areas where the subway and LIRR/MNRR don't reach (either in Manhattan, the outerboroughs, or both). Some routes obviously are outliers, but they can still get ridership because the subway sucks and/or they serve other outerlying areas as well.  It's insulting when the subway, MNRR and LIRR fares had relatively small to no increases in the recent fare hike, while Express Bus fares did. Also, at least for LIRR, they have some outdated policies (Double pay for operating both electric & non-electric trains? Really?) which should be looked at before any sort of service change occurs. 

This is only partially true. There are many express routes in Queens especially that could be replaced easily with LIRR or a short bus ride to LIRR. In the Bronx, the potential is certainly more limited, but, for example in Co Op City, the advent of PSAS should at least prompt a discussion on keeping such a high operating cost service as the BxM7 in light of the fact that a faster alternative will exist. I'm in no way defending the agency's treatment of express bus riders here, I just think there's a conversation to be had about weighting the costs of providing express bus service against a) potential alternate uses of those resources, and b) potential alternate (sometimes faster) routes express bus users could take. 

I'm totally with you on LIRR rule reform, but it's worth noting that even w/o it LIRR service is cheaper to operate than express buses, and the marginal cost of capacity is lower (in some cases, even zero).

9 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

No 21st century transportation network works being rail-oriented. It needs bus, rail, and other applicable modes integrated together. This is also part of the reason why express bus riders get shafted the most. They clearly don't care, when they've literally ran express bus routes into ground in order to ultimately cut them under the basis of "low ridership". When was the last time you've heard the MTA advertise an express bus route? 

The express bus network is honestly one of the better examples out there of a network that doesn't play to modal strengths. Internationally, buses do their best work feeding rail lines and serving medium density markets that do not have/cannot justify rail service. In almost all cases, their riders travel over short stage lengths. The express bus network meets none of those criterion; it is an example of a network that does not in fact pursue sensible modal integration. 

9 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

As for your last point, that only works on a good day. Let's be honest, with how terrible local bus and subway service is, how many days of the year does this realistically apply to?

Couldn't agree more, which is why I qualified my statement in the way I did. But that does not detract at all from the fact that the agency is spending massively to serve a relatively small number of riders. Again, I've gotta ask, is this really the best use of our limited resources? The impacts of express bus service aren't just on express bus riders -- by definition, the opex consumed in their operation is money not being spent elsewhere. Would love to see an analysis of (provided good alternatives to express bus service) the potential alternate uses of those funds.

2 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

This is AM Rush? 

Yes. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by RR503

[Lex]

39 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Not sure about that.  Parts of the Bronx have 1Hour plus commutes especially to lower Manhattan. That's on par or longer then some parts of SI.

It was a comparison, not an absolute.

[RailRunRob]

4 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Yes. 

Yep I see your point roughy 1hr 8 min with the BXM7. BX23 +   depending your departure timing 1Hr 1 min to 1hr 20 mins. Definitely a few variables but from a timing standpoint all things considered they're definitely on par and for Lower Manhattan obviously the subway would be the way.

[RailRunRob]

Guess for me a have no luck on timing must be just missing every bus and train plus it's almost always midday. Definitely seems longer than that. When I do take the BMX7 I switch to the  or   at 42nd for Bklyn.

Edited October 23, 2019 by RailRunRob

[RR503]

11 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Guess for me a have no luck on timing must be just missing every bus and train plus it's almost always midday. Definitely seems longer than that. When I do take the BMX7 I switch to the  or   at 42nd for Bklyn.

Your experience is certainly not unique, which is why I wouldn't eliminate Co-Op express service until MNR comes. But then...

To everyone in this thread, being a good transit advocate means advocating strongly for what you believe in, but it also means being able to contextualize your beliefs/priorities in those of a transit system or region at large. I would, for example, love to see massive investment in regional rail, but I understand that current cost structures make that a piss poor use of funds when compared to more targeted interventions. This of course shouldn't mean you sacrifice everything for some understood "greater good," but it does mean you should be somewhat responsible in your advocacy.