Updates on North Shore BRT

[Union Tpke]

For the record, I support restoring heavy rail, not BRT.

Gotta love the lack of bus lanes along South Avenue!

Screen Shot 2019-09-29 at 8.47.48 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

https://new.mta.info/document/10471

Here is the Draft Scoping document:

https://new.mta.info/document/10486

Screen Shot 2019-09-29 at 8.47.56 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

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Change in service plan:

The S40 will not be discontinued, like the initial plan

Screen Shot 2019-09-29 at 8.50.44 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

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[Italianstallion]

Will the restoration of the former rail ROW be done in a way that allows for future rail repurposing?

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Italianstallion said:

Will the restoration of the former rail ROW be done in a way that allows for future rail repurposing?

I honestly doubt it (at least, going beyond light rail). They really want the service to connect to West Shore Plaza, for some reason, and they don't seem to want to worry about separate maintenance facilities and FRA waivers in order to run light rail service.

[Lawrence St]

Aren't the SIR tracks connected to the reminaing two elevated stations on the west shore branch via Ballpark?

[Deucey]

23 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Aren't the SIR tracks connected to the reminaing two elevated stations on the west shore branch via Ballpark?

Nope. No tracks past the parking garage and service road at Richmond Terrace & Jersey Street.

(I live over here, so)

[Elloss]

Should have chosen HRT. Why go through the effort of uprooting tracks and worsening the parking situation in St. George when they can build heavy rail that has much better capacity than a bus and is much faster as well.

[Italianstallion]

7 hours ago, Lex said:

I honestly doubt it (at least, going beyond light rail). They really want the service to connect to West Shore Plaza, for some reason, and they don't seem to want to worry about separate maintenance facilities and FRA waivers in order to run light rail service.

They could avoid waivers and maintenance issues by using Heavy Rail - connecting the new service to the existing SIR.

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Italianstallion said:

They could avoid waivers and maintenance issues by using Heavy Rail - connecting the new service to the existing SIR.

 

2 hours ago, Elloss said:

Should have chosen HRT. Why go through the effort of uprooting tracks and worsening the parking situation in St. George when they can build heavy rail that has much better capacity than a bus and is much faster as well.

 

9 hours ago, Lex said:

I honestly doubt it (at least, going beyond light rail). They really want the service to connect to West Shore Plaza, for some reason, and they don't seem to want to worry about separate maintenance facilities and FRA waivers in order to run light rail service.

Apparently, I have to emphasize this...

There's a reason why LRT and BRT ended up being the only two options given any thought, with BRT coming out on top.

[Kamen Rider]

Because getting to Chuck E. Cheese is that important...
 

The existing West Shore Branch ROW passes right next to the mall. That seems to be a touch on the weak justification side.

[Lil 57]

14 hours ago, Elloss said:

Should have chosen HRT. Why go through the effort of uprooting tracks and worsening the parking situation in St. George when they can build heavy rail that has much better capacity than a bus and is much faster as well.

They also could of connected the North shore Branch with the NEC  or the Raritan Valley Line via the Arthur Kill Vertical Lift Bridge if they chose HRT. (Yes I know some track connections would have to be made for this to happen.) NJT could also have some trains that terminate at St. George via the North Shore Line for workers in Downtown Manhattan via the Ferry or for NJ workers that work in SI. (If there was also a bridge from Perth Amboy to Tottenville that connected the NJCL, you could have some NJCL trains run to St. George for same reasons as above.)

Edited September 30, 2019 by Lil 57

[Lex]

1 hour ago, Kamen Rider said:

The existing West Shore Branch ROW passes right next to the mall. That seems to be a touch on the weak justification side.

But does it also pass by the Teleport or the hotels? (The answer is no. It swings well away from them into even more nothing.)

[Elloss]

1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

They also could of connected the North shore Branch with the NEC  or the Raritan Valley Line via the Arthur Kill Vertical Lift Bridge if they chose HRT. (Yes I know some track connections would have to be made for this to happen.) NJT could also have some trains that terminate at St. George via the North Shore Line for workers in Downtown Manhattan via the Ferry or for NJ workers that work in SI. (If there was also a bridge from Perth Amboy to Tottenville that connected the NJCL, you could have some NJCL trains run to St. George for same reasons as above.)

Or have the North Jersey Coast Line have it’s own bridge that passes through Perth Amboy into Staten Island. It could run along the west shore expressway before ending at the West Shore Plaza.

[Lil 57]

2 hours ago, Elloss said:

Or have the North Jersey Coast Line have it’s own bridge that passes through Perth Amboy into Staten Island. It could run along the west shore expressway before ending at the West Shore Plaza.

That could work, but it should also serve the Teleport and the NY Container Terminal so that workers can easily commute from NJ to the Teleport and NY Container Terminal, so it could end at Arlington.

[checkmatechamp13]

On 9/30/2019 at 3:13 PM, Lil 57 said:

That could work, but it should also serve the Teleport and the NY Container Terminal so that workers can easily commute from NJ to the Teleport and NY Container Terminal, so it could end at Arlington.

The S40/90 had 7 riders per weekday traveling to Howland Hook. Not worth building a whole station just for another 7 riders.

@Union Tpke @Elloss I used to be 100% in favor of heavy rail but over the years I've begun to understand (not necessarily agree with but understand) their logic for BRT. The catchment area is pretty narrow since it is right by the waterfront so they want to extend some existing routes to give people a one-seat ride to the ferry. The question is, when the local redesign occurs how will that impact ridership patterns?

For example, from my neighborhood I can take the S44/94, S46/96, or S62/92 to St. George to reach the ferry. However I have been requesting a local route along the Fahy/Goethals corridor for years (basically an S57/66 restucturing. S57 via Jewett and S66 to Bulls Head/Graniteville via Watchogue/Goethals/Fahy). An S59 to St. George would be quicker than the S44/94 and S46/96, and would be less delay-prone than the S62/92 (normally the quickest route without traffic...key phrase).

The question is, how would travel patterns change if bus lanes were placed on Victory Blvd (or other streets like Forest Avenue), or if there was a local equivalent of the SIM4 that used the SIE HOV lane to Bay Ridge (where you can catch the to Manhattan)? 

[Lil 57]

13 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The S40/90 had 7 riders per weekday traveling to Howland Hook. Not worth building a whole station just for another 7 riders.

The other reason for terminating at Arlington is to connect with the North Shore Line if Heavy Rail was used but I don't think that the West Shore Line is as important as the North Shore Line (with NJ extension onto the RVL for some RVL trains to run to St. George) and the NJCL connection between Perth Amboy and Tottenville. (Most likely the link to Tottenville would be at South Amboy).

Edited October 2, 2019 by Lil 57

[Elloss]

29 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

The other reason for terminating at Arlington is to connect with the North Shore Line if Heavy Rail was used but I don't think that the West Shore Line is as important as the North Shore Line (with NJ extension onto the RVL for some RVL trains to run to St. George) and the NJCL connection between Perth Amboy and Tottenville. (Most likely the link to Tottenville would be at South Amboy).

Is that better than having a SIR heavy rail going along the west shore, connecting to the North Shore BRT along the way, and finally going to Elizabeth with a terminus by the Elizabeth station?

[Lil 57]

1 hour ago, Elloss said:

Is that better than having a SIR heavy rail going along the west shore, connecting to the North Shore BRT along the way, and finally going to Elizabeth with a terminus by the Elizabeth station?

I only thing is that the West shore isn't as populated as the other parts of the island and IDK how many people Working at the Teleport from NJ would use the train instead of their cars.

The North Shore Line connects with the RVL at Cranford and riders can go from NJ to SI easier by public transportation, so that's why I think the connection would be beneficial.

[Elloss]

3 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

I only thing is that the West shore isn't as populated as the other parts of the island and IDK how many people Working at the Teleport from NJ would use the train instead of their cars.

The North Shore Line connects with the RVL at Cranford and riders can go from NJ to SI easier by public transportation, so that's why I think the connection would be beneficial.

They would have to reactivate the north shore right of way for a heavy rail line again in order to let NJ Transit run on it. Too bad they are going for a BRT which is probably the least efficient option they could’ve taken.

[Cait Sith]

7 hours ago, Elloss said:

They would have to reactivate the north shore right of way for a heavy rail line again in order to let NJ Transit run on it. Too bad they are going for a BRT which is probably the least efficient option they could’ve taken.

That's also if NJT would even want to run a line to Staten Island to begin with, which is extremely unlikely.

[Deucey]

On 9/29/2019 at 9:03 PM, Elloss said:

Should have chosen HRT. Why go through the effort of uprooting tracks and worsening the parking situation in St. George when they can build heavy rail that has much better capacity than a bus and is much faster as well.

As overcrowded as S40/44/90/94 are, they could go HRT or LRT with single or two car trains and even at 15-30 minute service every trip will be at least half full.

[Elloss]

They lack the funding yet again to support this project. And they still want to ruin the St. George car flow by removing parking lanes.

[Deucey]

21 hours ago, Elloss said:

They lack the funding yet again to support this project. And they still want to ruin the St. George car flow by removing parking lanes.

They could remove the trees, narrow the sidewalks, and turn the median into a double yellow from St Peters to the ferry and preserve the parking, the bike lane and build the bus way.

And moving the 120th into the mall frees up even more space.

[Elloss]

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

They could remove the trees, narrow the sidewalks, and turn the median into a double yellow from St Peters to the ferry and preserve the parking, the bike lane and build the bus way.

And moving the 120th into the mall frees up even more space.

Or just use the rails below the parking garage and turn it into an HRT.

[Deucey]

3 hours ago, Elloss said:

Or just use the rails below the parking garage and turn it into an HRT.

The rails stop right after the garage - the entire waterfront is paved as a service road to that parking lot by CSI from Jersey St & Richmond Terrace. After that, all businesses, so I really have ZERO idea what they’re building this on since you have Gerardi’s old warehouse and that salt storage lot in the way down to Lafayette St, then all those port-servicing businesses after that until you get to the old North Shore bridges.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

They should just release the Final Report now, as long as they've already decided what they're going to do.