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LaGuardia Link N Tra

NYCT - Bottlenecks Discussion Thread

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Since bottlenecks are interesting to talk about, I decided to create a thread about nothing other than bottlenecks that plague the overall capacity of our subway system. I want to focus this thread solely on the Bottlenecks themselves. I also understand that there was another thread that talked about NYC Subway Bottlenecks, but I didn't want to necropost in that thread since the last reply was from 2014 or something like that. Without a further a do, here's a map that I created lying out the different types of bottlenecks throughout the system. This map is something that I made for fun, but I also want to be accurate with it as possible: 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zW5OcTK4Zkc1_vlH-8LQ73k6UdrhA8hV&usp=sharing

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VCP imo, is turning into a poor terminal, so you can add that in there too.

 

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How about the entire (6) line segment from 63rd St to 125th St.

Edited by Elloss

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Flatbush ave can be really bad. It’s been backed up to Sterling street at some instances. Sometimes you’re better off taking a B44SBS!

Edited by Abba
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Why isn’t the Chrystie Street connection for the (M) train not included? I see that as a bottleneck on the 6th Avenue Line and prevents the operation of a true (F) Culver Express service without interfering with local (F) service.

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@LaGuardia Link N Tra what's your intent here. Are you trying to show service bottlenecks (things that slow/delay trains given current patterns) design bottlenecks (service design choices that limit capacity) or some combo of the two? 

This map is a good effort. There are a number of things I'd love to hear your thoughts on -- for example, why Essex is a higher impact bottleneck than Marcy -- but providing this info publicly is a seriously valuable goal. Kudos. 

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What about W.8 St on the (F) ? Usually, during time, the Stillwell trains sit at that station for at least 5-7 mins before heading to the terminal. Also, observing one time that 2 (Q) trains reached to the terminal first before that (F) joined in. 

Edited by Calvin

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7 hours ago, RR503 said:

@LaGuardia Link N Tra what's your intent here. Are you trying to show service bottlenecks (things that slow/delay trains given current patterns) design bottlenecks (service design choices that limit capacity) or some combo of the two? 

This map is a good effort. There are a number of things I'd love to hear your thoughts on -- for example, why Essex is a higher impact bottleneck than Marcy -- but providing this info publicly is a seriously valuable goal. Kudos. 

My intention is to show bottlenecks of all types. That includes ones that affect our current service patterns and poor design choices. 
 

As for why I put Essex as a greater bottleneck as opposed to Marcy is because of That sharp curve going S/B (Broad St bound (J), FH Bound (M)) The poor signaling along the Williamsburg Bridge is bad enough time of itself, and that affects both ends of the Bridge. Not to mention that going N/B, either a (J) or (M) train has to be held at Essex before proceeding which can take up to 1-3 minutes. Correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been a while since I’ve taken the (J)(M) going toward Brooklyn. As for Marcy, there are a few tight curves (And timers ofc) that force trains to go at around 10-15 mph. However, trains are pretty quick with getting in and out Marcy from what I’ve experienced. Sadly, I’ve never experienced how Marcy is during the Morning Rush, so I can’t make a proper judgement of that yet. 

Anyways, thanks for the feedback! If there’s any bottlenecks that I missed or didn’t label accurately, please let me know. It’d be really helpful.

16 hours ago, Elloss said:

How about the entire (6) line segment from 63rd St to 125th St.

Going N/B or S/B?

 

8 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Why isn’t the Chrystie Street connection for the (M) train not included? I see that as a bottleneck on the 6th Avenue Line and prevents the operation of a true (F) Culver Express service without interfering with local (F) service.

I didn’t think of that, so thanks for pointing out that bottleneck to me. It didn’t come to my attention since Williamsburg and Ridgewood does have a high demand to go to midtown Manhattan, but I do see your point about the Culver Express issue.

 

5 hours ago, Calvin said:

What about W.8 St on the (F) ? Usually, during time, the Stillwell trains sit at that station for at least 5-7 mins before heading to the terminal. Also, observing one time that 2 (Q) trains reached to the terminal first before that (F) joined in. 

Does this occur during all hours of the day or only during the rush? I’m asking Cause I barely ride the (F) around the general area of Avenue X and Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue. 

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2 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Does this occur during all hours of the day or only during the rush? I’m asking Cause I barely ride the (F) around the general area of Avenue X and Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue. 

The all hours of the day. During the rush, on the (F) , it's less waiting than the first option (approx. 4-5 mins)

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To my knowledge, Marcy is more restrictive than Essex. Lower entrance speeds, longer control lines, equally long dwells (remember that Brooklyn-bound dwells at Essex are a merge issue/are mitigated by there being two available platforms). 

Edited by RR503
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22 minutes ago, Harlem Crosstown said:

How’s about Rogers (2)(3)(4)(5)?

Don't get me started. It's a shit-show during rush hour, both AM and PM. Off-peak is decent.

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37 minutes ago, Harlem Crosstown said:

How’s about Rogers (2)(3)(4)(5)?

I have that listed as a Major bottleneck on my map. If there’s anything you know about it that I don’t, then enlighten me please. I also recommend that you look at my map that I have attached to the initial post in this thread.

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Just now, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

I have that listed as a Major bottleneck on my map. If there’s anything you know about it that I don’t, then enlighten me please. I also recommend that you look at my map that I have attached to the initial post in this thread.

I grew up on the Brooklyn IRT (still live on the portion to this very day). When the (5) is running to and from Brooklyn, this is how delays play out at the junction east of Franklin Avenue:

-A New Lots Avenue-bound (3) and Flatbush Avenue-bound (5) come into Flatbush Avenue for a cross-platform connection at the same time

-Both leave the station, only for one of them to get held to let the other cross infront first, effectively delaying all other trains behind one by one.

The (5) has to cross twice in a row before reaching President Street southbound and Franklin Avenue northbound.

-A Manhattan-bound (3) will come into Nostrand, only to get held to let either a (2) or (5) go first. If it's the (2), the (3) is delayed 2 minutes. If it's a (5) and then a (2), the (3) is delayed 4 minutes. The (4) is also delayed by the (5) as well.

That's how delays play out here.

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33 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

I grew up on the Brooklyn IRT (still live on the portion to this very day). When the (5) is running to and from Brooklyn, this is how delays play out at the junction east of Franklin Avenue:

-A New Lots Avenue-bound (3) and Flatbush Avenue-bound (5) come into Flatbush Avenue for a cross-platform connection at the same time

-Both leave the station, only for one of them to get held to let the other cross infront first, effectively delaying all other trains behind one by one.

The (5) has to cross twice in a row before reaching President Street southbound and Franklin Avenue northbound.

-A Manhattan-bound (3) will come into Nostrand, only to get held to let either a (2) or (5) go first. If it's the (2), the (3) is delayed 2 minutes. If it's a (5) and then a (2), the (3) is delayed 4 minutes. The (4) is also delayed by the (5) as well.

That's how delays play out here.

I know exactly what you are talking about. As a daily commuter who uses that line, this happens all the time. It’s so annoying.

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The Dekalb junction: that's correct going north but going south is like making a choice if the (B) and (Q) or (D) and (N) meet at the same time. 

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7 hours ago, RR503 said:

To my knowledge, Marcy is more restrictive than Essex. Lower entrance speeds, longer control lines, equally long dwells (remember that Brooklyn-bound dwells at Essex are a merge issue/are mitigated by there being two available platforms). 

From observing brooklyn bound trains at Essex while waiting for a downtown (J)(Z) , entrance speeds there are low too if train doesnt have the lineup at the end of the platform. 

Edited by RestrictOnTheHanger

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3 hours ago, Jemorie said:

-A Manhattan-bound (3) will come into Nostrand, only to get held to let either a (2) or (5) go first. If it's the (2), the (3) is delayed 2 minutes. If it's a (5) and then a (2), the (3) is delayed 4 minutes. The (4) is also delayed by the (5) as well.

The (2) and (5) do not get priority. (Hell, I've been on (5) trains that waited before reaching President Street, waited at President Street, started leaving, then had to wait yet again because that's when the (4) finally decided to show its stupid ass.

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30 minutes ago, Lex said:

The (2) and (5) do not get priority. (Hell, I've been on (5) trains that waited before reaching President Street, waited at President Street, started leaving, then had to wait yet again because that's when the (4) finally decided to show its stupid ass.

I alternate between the (3)(4) and the (A)(C) since I live inbetween both on Utica Avenue, so I don't know the full story about the (2)(5) northbound at the junction before Franklin Avenue.

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24 minutes ago, Jemorie said:

I alternate between the (3)(4) and the (A)(C) since I live inbetween both on Utica Avenue, so I don't know the full story about the (2)(5) northbound at the junction before Franklin Avenue.

Sometimes both are being held there, especially with the (5) with that multi-way merge.

This is why the Rogers Junction needs to be deinterlined. 

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36 Street ((D)(N)) is definitely a sore point. I suspect train supervision holding the (N) trains at 59 Street may be a factor in it as the northbound trains hold both at 59 Street and right before 36 Street. Obviously, the solution would be to send the (N) ahead without waiting at 59 Street to keep both trains out of each other’s ways.

The (Q) often slows down to a trickle as far as Sheepshead Bay as trains wait to get into Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue. This happens to the (B) entering Brighton Beach as well. Often, train supervision will hold the (B) at Kings Highway and the conductor will just advise passengers to take the (Q) across the platform.

The (F) has its issues at Fort Hamilton Parkway (southbound), Avenue P, and West 8 Street. They are all issues related to terminal operations.

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On 10/26/2019 at 6:39 PM, Jemorie said:

I grew up on the Brooklyn IRT (still live on the portion to this very day). When the (5) is running to and from Brooklyn, this is how delays play out at the junction east of Franklin Avenue:

-A New Lots Avenue-bound (3) and Flatbush Avenue-bound (5) come into Flatbush Avenue for a cross-platform connection at the same time

-Both leave the station, only for one of them to get held to let the other cross infront first, effectively delaying all other trains behind one by one.

The (5) has to cross twice in a row before reaching President Street southbound and Franklin Avenue northbound.

-A Manhattan-bound (3) will come into Nostrand, only to get held to let either a (2) or (5) go first. If it's the (2), the (3) is delayed 2 minutes. If it's a (5) and then a (2), the (3) is delayed 4 minutes. The (4) is also delayed by the (5) as well.

That's how delays play out here.

Actually I take a (3) sometimes at 8am. It’s improved. 3 out of 5 times in and out of Nostrand. Last week however I took a (4) at 7PM out of Utica. It left a minute or so late cause conductor was late. That minute and a half late made us wait a good few min for a (5) before Franklin.

Edited by Abba

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