NYCT - Bottlenecks Discussion Thread

[Jemorie]

On 12/22/2019 at 8:24 PM, Jemorie said:

2. I certainly just thought about that after re-reading your point here and calculated it myself. You’re right. I was too obsessively focused on the “number of stops skipped” versus actual reliability, which is why I came up with the across platform connection at Brighton/Sheepshead (and then Kings Hwy) in the first place. Forgive me for that though. So that settles the dust then. As much as I don’t like the Newkirk Av connection, it fully makes the utmost operational sense for a cross platform connection and a perfect 3 minute headway between trains from Prospect Park to DeKalb Av. Just a note, though, that Kings Hwy is the still the second (keyword second) best across platform connection between s and s. Only difference is that trains would be alternating headways of 2 minutes and 3 minutes instead of coming in every 3 minutes. Overall, I get the picture.

Just to correct an error from this post...I meant that if N/B s and s (while on their 6 min headway each out of Brooklyn in the AM peak) connect at Kings Hwy, then the Prospect Pk-Dekalb Av stretch would see alternating headways of 2 minutes and 4 minutes, as N/B s would get to Prospect Pk approximately 4 minutes ahead of N/B s they've previously connected with at Kings Hwy each and every time. Concurrently, N/B s in the Prospect Pk-DeKalb Av stretch would be followed immediately right behind by N/B s. Kings Hwy is the second best across-platform connection for N/B s and s, only behind Newkirk Av, which allows for a perfect 3 min headway in the Prospect Pk-DeKalb Av stretch, as @RR503 himself pointed out earlier.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Jemorie

[LGA Link N Train]

Judging by the discussion that was had in this thread. (and other threads) I've been able to come up with a map of how the Subway System were to look like if we were to relieve most of these bottlenecks. Many places need infrastructure upgrades and changes in order for these bottlenecks to be eliminated. Some of the Obvious Improvements Include:

Deinterlining:

Broadway - to 96; to Astoria

Queens Blvd - 6th Avenue-63rd Street-QB Express. (22  Trains and 8 Trains) 

Queens Blvd - Fulton Express-8th Express-53rd Street- QB Local and Service. 

CPW - 6th Express; 8th Local.  Weekday Route to 207. - Weekday Route via Concourse/8th Local. Weekend - 207th-WTC weekends. 

Junction Rebuilds:

Rogers Junction -  to Flatbush; to Utica/New Lots

Myrtle Avenue Upper Level Rebuild - .  

East 180th Rebuild - .  

Brighton Beach Interlockings - . @RR503 I used the diagram that you posted a few pages back regarding the layup tracks past Brighton Beach. Hope you don't mind.  

There's more included, though I have to point out that this map is still a Work In Progress. There are some sections of the subway (Such as Bergen Street and Coney Island Terminal) Whereas I don't know how I'm going to explain the solution to those issues. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rtGql_PISy0MBGvH1xIND96LUCpb6aVd&usp=sharing

[Jemorie]

40 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Queens Blvd - 6th Avenue-63rd Street-QB Express. (22  Trains and 8 Trains) 

Queens Blvd - Fulton Express-8th Express-53rd Street- QB Local and Service. 

CPW - 6th Express; 8th Local.  Weekday Route to 207. - Weekday Route via Concourse/8th Local. Weekend - 207th-WTC weekends. 

I don't know if I follow this tbh.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Jemorie

[LGA Link N Train]

1 minute ago, Jemorie said:

I don't know if I follow this tbh.

This would be a short term solution to deinterline QB. If there was a Northern Blvd Subway built in the short term as a extension, then the arrangement on QB would be flipped. 

As for 8th Avenue/CPW. Having the Alternative Express Local would come with its own issues aside from no upper level 50th Street Service. 

[Jemorie]

13 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

As for 8th Avenue/CPW. Having the Alternative Express Local would come with its own issues aside from no upper level 50th Street Service. 

Not bad. I remember @NewFlyer 230 did mention a handful of times of congestion on uptown  and  trains in Manhattan (before 59th Street) due to the merge with the  and  at 59th Street, though this is mainly because of the high amount of  traffic (a nearly, yes nearly 20 tph) out of Brooklyn in the AM peak.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Jemorie

[JeremiahC99]

2 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

As for 8th Avenue/CPW. Having the Alternative Express Local would come with its own issues aside from no upper level 50th Street Service. 

For 50th Street, wouldn’t the  and  service increase make up for the loss of service on the upper level. Assuming that the current track capacity tops off at 24 trains per hour, if the  and  both ran at 12 trains per hour, this should be roughly the same amount of service 50th Street currently gets. Also, what other issues would come up with the  express  local?

[Lex]

7 hours ago, Jemorie said:

Not bad. I remember @NewFlyer 230 did mention a handful of times of congestion on uptown  and  trains in Manhattan (before 59th Street) due to the merge with the  and  at 59th Street, though this is mainly because of the high amount of  traffic (a nearly, yes nearly 20 tph) out of Brooklyn in the AM peak.

Well, there's also the issue that the junction doesn't allow trains to be slotted...

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On ‎11‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 11:20 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Under the current service operations, northbound  and  trains arrive at Canal Street in groups of two, so you get an  followed right behind by a  (or vice versa), followed by a longer wait before the next two trains. Even if the schedule doesn’t call for it, I see it every day. This isn’t something that should be happening regularly, yet it does. There is a delay because you’ve got an  and a  getting to the junction at the same time on the Brooklyn side, therefore one has to stop and wait till the other is a “safe enough” distance ahead.   

 

On ‎11‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 11:30 PM, Around the Horn said:

And in the reverse, I'm on trains that have to hold for trains to enter the 4th Avenue corridor practically every day.

Oddly enough, both of these things happened on my  train this morning. It was an R46 train and I was running super-early for work, so I decided to get in an R46 run over the Manhattan Bridge. Once on the Brooklyn side, they stopped us just past the portal, then again just after passing DeKalb. Then on the ride back from Atlantic-Barclays to Canal (which was an R160 train), they stopped us to let a  pass, so you know there was going to be some train bunching over the bridge and up the express tracks. 

Edited December 26, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Lawrence St]

5 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

 

Oddly enough, both of these things happened on my  train this morning. It was an R46 train and I was running super-early for work, so I decided to get in an R46 run over the Manhattan Bridge. Once on the Brooklyn side, they stopped us just past the portal, then again just after passing DeKalb. Then on the ride back to Canal (which was an R160 train), they stopped us to let a  pass, so you know there was going to be some train bunching over the bridge and up the express tracks. 

I think the Bridge delay issue comes from Broadway itself. That line is so horribly built (and the current service plans ain't doing much help either) that it just results in trains becoming even 30 seconds late, so then that train has to hold at DeKalb Av while a passes in front of it, and that delay builds up more and more.

[Jemorie]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

I think the Bridge delay issue comes from Broadway itself. That line is so horribly built (and the current service plans ain't doing much help either) that it just results in trains becoming even 30 seconds late, so then that train has to hold at DeKalb Av while a passes in front of it, and that delay builds up more and more.

The bridge delay comes from poor dispatching at DeKalb Tower, not the Broadway Line. A southbound  and  can arrive at the junction without interfering one another, and they would still be held there for a minute or two before the tower is notified about which trains they are and that both trains do not merge together. Same with a southbound  and .

[CenSin]

4 hours ago, Lex said:

Well, there's also the issue that the junction doesn't allow trains to be slotted...

The IND had the right idea with 50 Street (), though I suspect it was built that way because of the short distance to 7 Avenue () and the need to weave in the tracks from 59 Street–Columbus Circle. What really should have been done was a lower level for 59 Street–Columbus Circle just like at 145 Street (). Instead of a junction, ramp below the mainline, and then a curve to 53 Street, the lower level tracks could curve to 57 Street with a direct connection above to the Broadway Line. There would be:

1. A transfer complex between the
2. A possible connecting corridor with 57 Street () as well (which would be useful in a lot of reroute scenarios planned or unplanned)
3. A stop at Lexington Avenue–57 Street, which would create a busy transfer complex between the —the only transfer between the and in the entire system
4. No merging delays pulling into the express station with the opportunity for a transfer across the platform and between levels

Unfortunately, it’s hard to predict what would happen on the Queens end of the 57 Street tunnel. Queens Plaza could still exist, but there would be no connection at Court Square, leaving the to dead end there with a sole transfer to the . The MTA might not have made the decision to cut back the with such slim transfer alternatives. The Broadway–Queens Boulevard connection might also not be possible as it exists today.

[Union Tpke]

27 minutes ago, CenSin said:

The IND had the right idea with 50 Street (), though I suspect it was built that way because of the short distance to 7 Avenue () and the need to weave in the tracks from 59 Street–Columbus Circle.

Originally, the plan only called for a station at 50th Street for trains heading up CPW, but this changed in 1926.

https://www.nytimes.com/1926/11/22/archives/new-subway-stop-planned-in-8th-av-between-49th-and-51st-streets-on.html

[LGA Link N Train]

13 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Also, what other issues would come up with the  express  local?

The other issue (given that you leave 145th interlined) would be Yard Assignments. 

Say if you had Service to 168th and  Service to 205th, then yard assignments would have to change. 

[subway4832]

17 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Judging by the discussion that was had in this thread. (and other threads) I've been able to come up with a map of how the Subway System were to look like if we were to relieve most of these bottlenecks. Many places need infrastructure upgrades and changes in order for these bottlenecks to be eliminated. Some of the Obvious Improvements Include:

Deinterlining:

Broadway - to 96; to Astoria

Queens Blvd - 6th Avenue-63rd Street-QB Express. (22  Trains and 8 Trains) 

Queens Blvd - Fulton Express-8th Express-53rd Street- QB Local and Service. 

CPW - 6th Express; 8th Local.  Weekday Route to 207. - Weekday Route via Concourse/8th Local. Weekend - 207th-WTC weekends. 

Junction Rebuilds:

Rogers Junction -  to Flatbush; to Utica/New Lots

Myrtle Avenue Upper Level Rebuild - .  

East 180th Rebuild - .  

Brighton Beach Interlockings - . @RR503 I used the diagram that you posted a few pages back regarding the layup tracks past Brighton Beach. Hope you don't mind.  

There's more included, though I have to point out that this map is still a Work In Progress. There are some sections of the subway (Such as Bergen Street and Coney Island Terminal) Whereas I don't know how I'm going to explain the solution to those issues. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rtGql_PISy0MBGvH1xIND96LUCpb6aVd&usp=sharing

The  and  Merge at E180 is definitely one Im on board with. They could always solve this by running the  Express in the Bronx and have the  Local. Not sure how thats going to sit with Dyre/Co-op City Residents lol

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

The other issue (given that you leave 145th interlined) would be Yard Assignments. 

Say if you had Service to 168th and  Service to 205th, then yard assignments would have to change. 

for me, I kinda don’t see this as somewhat of an issue since you could have the  at concourse and the  at 207th Street or Coney Island. I would keep the fleet where it is now, especially since the R211s could end up replacing the R32s there and the  could get some new 10-car trains. Actual fleet needs will depend on the needs of the rerouted lines.

 

Also, I’m surprised you didn’t include the curves at West Farms Square-East Tremont Avenue as a bottleneck in itself, since I do see the trains being slowed down too much by it. Perhaps it should be rebuilt on a new alignment over some city streets, with the land open for redevelopment. 

[Union Tpke]

1 hour ago, subway4832 said:

The  and  Merge at E180 is definitely one Im on board with. They could always solve this by running the  Express in the Bronx and have the  Local. Not sure how thats going to sit with Dyre/Co-op City Residents lol

You might want to do some reading:

The Proposal from December 1999

IMG_7859 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7860 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7861 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7862 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Opposition and Killing of Plan

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/28/nyregion/neighborhood-report-bronx-up-close-our-trip-s-long-enough-it-commuters-tell-mta.html?searchResultPosition=1

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/17/nyregion/trouble-down-the-line-in-rerouting-train.html?searchResultPosition=40

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/25/nyregion/plan-to-shift-no-5-train-is-abandoned.html
 

 

[Jemorie]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I think the Bridge delay issue comes from Broadway itself. That line is so horribly built (and the current service plans ain't doing much help either) that it just results in trains becoming even 30 seconds late, so then that train has to hold at DeKalb Av while a passes in front of it, and that delay builds up more and more.

I actually take back what I said now that I thought about it:

5 hours ago, Jemorie said:

The bridge delay comes from poor dispatching at DeKalb Tower, not the Broadway Line. A southbound  and  can arrive at the junction without interfering one another, and they would still be held there for a minute or two before the tower is notified about which trains they are and that both trains do not merge together. Same with a southbound  and .

Although, @Lawrence St, DeKalb Tower does also seem to be having some issues with dispatching and identifying which train is at the junction before they are able to route it correctly. But overall, you are correct that the Broadway Line's piss-poor design is what contributes to the , , , and 's poor performances.

[subway4832]

13 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

You might want to do some reading:

The Proposal from December 1999

IMG_7859 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7860 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7861 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7862 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Opposition and Killing of Plan

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/28/nyregion/neighborhood-report-bronx-up-close-our-trip-s-long-enough-it-commuters-tell-mta.html?searchResultPosition=1

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/17/nyregion/trouble-down-the-line-in-rerouting-train.html?searchResultPosition=40

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/25/nyregion/plan-to-shift-no-5-train-is-abandoned.html
 

 

Interesting Reads! Thanks a bunch! This was partly what I was referring to earlier. Also, is there a way to find these old committee agendas? Or are these like old archives? Kinda curious as to what else they had planned back then.

[Union Tpke]

@subway4832

No problem. In terms of old committee agenda, my big old summer project was taking pictures of interesting things from them. I took pictures of them from archives.

 

Here they are by month (I haven't had time to upload the rest of '92 and '93 but will next week once I am done with school)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127872292@N06/collections/72157709784584856/

 

I know they are not easy to navigate, so if you are looking for something in particular, just ask. I also (incompletely) categorized them by topic, like ADA accessibility, MDBF, introduction of the MetroCard. Any suggestions to make it easier to navigate would be much appreciated.

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Union Tpke

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Also, I’m surprised you didn’t include the curves at West Farms Square-East Tremont Avenue as a bottleneck in itself, since I do see the trains being slowed down too much by it. Perhaps it should be rebuilt on a new alignment over some city streets, with the land open for redevelopment. 

It was an addition that I added very recently to my bottlenecks map on the first post of this Thread. I added it to my map around a week ago after some previous discussion on Twitter. In the bottleneck relief map that I posted yesterday on this thread shows how I’d combat the issue with that bottleneck. 

 

40 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

You might want to do some reading:

The Proposal from December 1999

IMG_7859 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7860 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7861 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

IMG_7862 by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Opposition and Killing of Plan

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/28/nyregion/neighborhood-report-bronx-up-close-our-trip-s-long-enough-it-commuters-tell-mta.html?searchResultPosition=1

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/17/nyregion/trouble-down-the-line-in-rerouting-train.html?searchResultPosition=40

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/25/nyregion/plan-to-shift-no-5-train-is-abandoned.html
 

 

I remember you posted this in another thread. Which one was it?

 

1 hour ago, subway4832 said:

The  and  Merge at E180 is definitely one Im on board with. They could always solve this by running the  Express in the Bronx and have the  Local. Not sure how thats going to sit with Dyre/Co-op City Residents lol

The way I proposed it in the bottleneck relief map that I made was to rebuild the junction. I’ll have to draw up a diagram later but the idea is to make sure that  trains in running in the peak direction don’t merge with  trains until reaching 3rd Avenue-149th Street. 

[Union Tpke]

1 minute ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

It was an addition that I added very recently to my bottlenecks map on the first post of this Thread. I added it to my map around a week ago after some previous discussion on Twitter. In the bottleneck relief map that I posted yesterday on this thread shows how I’d combat the issue with that bottleneck. 

 

I remember you posted this in another thread. Which one was it?

 

The way I proposed it in the bottleneck relief map that I made was to rebuild the junction. I’ll have to draw up a diagram later but the idea is to make sure that  trains in running in the peak direction don’t merge with  trains until reaching 3rd Avenue-149th Street. 

I probably made a thread for this specific change.

[Union Tpke]

It would not be worth it, but you could in theory rebuild 3/149 and 149/GC so the  and  do not merge in the peak-direction,

[Union Tpke]

4 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

I probably made a thread for this specific change.

@LaGuardia Link N Tra

 

[JeremiahC99]

30 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

It was an addition that I added very recently to my bottlenecks map on the first post of this Thread. I added it to my map around a week ago after some previous discussion on Twitter. In the bottleneck relief map that I posted yesterday on this thread shows how I’d combat the issue with that bottleneck. 

I looked at it just now. Honestly, while it is good, what I would've done was had the new structure go directly over Tremont Avenue from Boston Road. It would continue along Tremont Avenue until Bronx Park Avenue, until it curves onto the Right of way of the old New York Westchester Boston Railway (NYWB) that was built over in 2013 (The new structure would be a three-tracked version of the AirTrain JFK structure). Once it reaches the NYWB line, it would link to the NYWB tracks at Lebanon Street and stop at the old NYWB platforms at East 180th Street. Past East 180th Street, there would be grade-separated junctions to allow for Dyre Avenue trains to access the local or express tracks without getting in the way of White Plains Road Line trains. The current subway platforms would be converted into additional tracks for yard space.

Though this would involve demolishing the new housing built in 2013 on the ROW, the good news is that the land on the old elevated subway alignment east of Boston Road would be available for redevelopment, including new apartments.

Edited December 26, 2019 by JeremiahC99

[T to Dyre Avenue]

7 hours ago, Jemorie said:

The bridge delay comes from poor dispatching at DeKalb Tower, not the Broadway Line. A southbound  and  can arrive at the junction without interfering one another, and they would still be held there for a minute or two before the tower is notified about which trains they are and that both trains do not merge together. Same with a southbound  and .

They shouldn’t. Doesn’t always mean they don’t. Like you said DeKalb Tower will stop them at the junction. There must be a better way than that. 

2 hours ago, Jemorie said:

I actually take back what I said now that I thought about it:

Although, @Lawrence St, DeKalb Tower does also seem to be having some issues with dispatching and identifying which train is at the junction before they are able to route it correctly. But overall, you are correct that the Broadway Line's piss-poor design is what contributes to the , , , and 's poor performances.

Not to mention Queens Blvd’s piss poor performance’s contribution to the ’s poor performance overall. Which, of course, can cause ripple effects onto the ,  and .