Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign Discussion

[B46+SBS via Utica Av]

Here we talk about the proposals and the Brooklyn Network Redesign!

[NBTA]

They weren’t released yet right?

[B46+SBS via Utica Av]

They released, the plan and the actions, but so far not the actual map themselves.

[Brillant93]

I would assume routes like the B8 and B47 would be split. 

[dkupf]

The goal for a "redesign" is to MAXIMIZE operating efficiency.

The best example, so far, where there was a political backlash to a "redesign" was Dublin.

Over there, the draft plan reduced the amount of routes from 130 to 100.  But, they were simpler and easier to understand.

After the backlash, additional routes and changes were incorporated into the Final Plan.

Jarrett Walker, in his website https://humantransit.org/ acknowledges the backlash, and thought that it was a great thing.

Besides, if service planning was easy, anybody would be able to do it.

First, read his posts for Dublin from 10/22/2019 and 9/23/2018, then draw your own conclusions.

[Mtatransit]

18 hours ago, dkupf said:

The goal for a "redesign" is to MAXIMIZE operating efficiency.

The best example, so far, where there was a political backlash to a "redesign" was Dublin.

Over there, the draft plan reduced the amount of routes from 130 to 100.  But, they were simpler and easier to understand.

After the backlash, additional routes and changes were incorporated into the Final Plan.

Jarrett Walker, in his website https://humantransit.org/ acknowledges the backlash, and thought that it was a great thing.

Besides, if service planning was easy, anybody would be able to do it.

First, read his posts for Dublin from 10/22/2019 and 9/23/2018, then draw your own conclusions.

Again, EVERYONE in this forum knows about the trade off required if the budget remain cost neutral.

We are transit enthusiasts we know how transit works.

[B46+SBS via Utica Av]

On 11/24/2019 at 1:33 PM, Brillant93 said:

I would assume routes like the B8 and B47 would be split. 

I wouldn´t be suprised by the B8 by its long route from Brownsville into Bay Ridge. And the B47, wouldn´t be suprised because of it´s confusing route from it going into Bed-Stuy, and going on Winthrop, Rockaway Pkwy, E. 98th and many more being a very confusing route and to this day I still don´t understand how it gets to the terminal.

[BrooklynBus]

This is the latest version (3.5) of the Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign I developed. The proposals have not changed since the last version posted, but it provides updated information. 

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AmiYAcY6ebQngUDLhOC-BonmAg19 

Below is the abstract of the plan: 

“This document shows how to restructure Brooklyn’s local bus network with the objective of increasing ridership by making the system more user-friendly. It accomplishes this objective by making most trips possible using only one or two buses or bus and subway. Service gaps are filled; routes are generally longer, straighter and more direct, but with most buses traveling shorter distances to better increase reliability and better fit service to demand. Airport access and interborough travel are also improved. Implementation is accomplished in phases with a small investment in increased operating costs to generate greater revenue.”

[B46+SBS via Utica Av]

On 11/26/2019 at 2:00 PM, BrooklynBus said:

This is the latest version (3.5) of the Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign I developed. The proposals have not changed since the last version posted, but it provides updated information. 

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AmiYAcY6ebQngUDLhOC-BonmAg19 

Below is the abstract of the plan: 

“This document shows how to restructure Brooklyn’s local bus network with the objective of increasing ridership by making the system more user-friendly. It accomplishes this objective by making most trips possible using only one or two buses or bus and subway. Service gaps are filled; routes are generally longer, straighter and more direct, but with most buses traveling shorter distances to better increase reliability and better fit service to demand. Airport access and interborough travel are also improved. Implementation is accomplished in phases with a small investment in increased operating costs to generate greater revenue.”

I love the redesign you developed, but the B7 service cut wasn't thought about too much. We have to think about Kings Highway. Alot of customers on Kings Highway in Flatbush, East Flatbush are not serviced very well, and the B7 is the only route that goes via Kings Hwy strictly. Since the B82 leaves Kings Hwy, and goes on to Flatlands Av to Vandalia Housing in Starret City. Stops such as Kings Hwy & Foster, and Avenue D are underserviced, and passengers have to walk down to Avenue D and Utica just for the B46 SBS when they cut a perfectly good route. Something to think about.

[bobtehpanda]

Do we really need two threads on this? 

 

[B46+SBS via Utica Av]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

Do we really need two threads on this? 

 

Couldn't delete that one sorry, deleting now.

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, B46+SBS via Utica Av said:

I love the redesign you developed, but the B7 service cut wasn't thought about too much. We have to think about Kings Highway. Alot of customers on Kings Highway in Flatbush, East Flatbush are not serviced very well, and the B7 is the only route that goes via Kings Hwy strictly. Since the B82 leaves Kings Hwy, and goes on to Flatlands Av to Vandalia Housing in Starret City. Stops such as Kings Hwy & Foster, and Avenue D are underserviced, and passengers have to walk down to Avenue D and Utica just for the B46 SBS when they cut a perfectly good route. Something to think about.

Thanks. Glad you like most of it. I cut the Kings Highway service south of Tilden Avenue because the B7 is fairly close to the B46 at that point and you also have the B47 nearby and the B7 is the most lightly used except for school runs which would remain. Anyone who uses the B7 there, can use the B46 instead by walking a few blocks and can transfer to the B82 for lower Kings Hwy. 

It was one of the few routes I decided to cut. It’s always easier to add routes than to cut routes, but the costs must be kept manageable. 

[B46+SBS via Utica Av]

Ah! thanks for the clarification.

[RtrainBlues]

- Very large volume of senior citizens use the 91st/Shore Road stop on B16, and I believe they prefer the more direct route to/from the R at 86th rather than a very long meandering route via Shore Road/69th to the R train.

- Elimination of service from 91st/Shore to 4th/86th R train would be very unpopular. How would riders get from 91st/Shore to 86th/4th?  Would the elderly need to walk this long distance?  Many people who live at 91st/Shore want a quick ride to the R train and/or want to shop the 86th St corridor. 

- MTA tries to eliminate duplication of subway service.  S79/S53 already have huge congestion backups due to Verrazano delays on weekdays, and extending route to 59th/4th would exacerbate unreliability. Even if you just miss the R, the next is never more than 10-12 minutes behind and is just as fast (if not faster) than a local bus extension. 

- Reroute of B64 via 95th makes sense (similar to old route from 86th/4th to Coney Island) as 69th St riders are already near an N train to Coney Island, and 95th riders have no direct subway so the B64 would be a big time saver for them.

- B16 already has huge reliability/bunching problems (mainly weekdays) due to traffic in the Caton Ave area, so extending it even further eastbound is sure to cause more trouble.

Edited November 28, 2019 by RtrainBlues

[B46+SBS via Utica Av]

4 minutes ago, RtrainBlues said:

- Very large volume of senior citizens use the 91st/Shore Road stop on B16, and I believe they prefer the more direct route to/from the R at 86th rather than a very long meandering route via Shore Road/69th to the R train.

- Elimination of service from 91st/Shore to 4th/86th R train would be very unpopular. How would riders get from 91st/Shore to 86th/4th?  Would the elderly need to walk this long distance?  This would be a huge disaster with much complaining to local elected officials.

- MTA tries to eliminate duplication of subway service.  S79/S53 already have huge congestion backups due to Verrazano delays on weekdays, and extending route to 59th/4th would exacerbate unreliability. Even if you just miss the R, the next is never more than 10-12 minutes behind and is just as fast (if not faster) than a local bus extension. 

- Reroute of B64 via 95th makes sense (similar to old route from 86th/4th to Coney Island) as 69th St riders are already near an N train to Coney Island, and 95th riders have no direct subway so the B64 would be a big time saver for them.

- B16 already has huge reliability/bunching problems (mainly weekdays) due to traffic in the Caton Ave area, so extending it even further eastbound is sure to cause more trouble.

Good point, large volumes of elderly do use the 91st Shore Rd Stop on the B16, and it will only cause more outcries of citizens not getting enough service or them complaining of elimination of service.

[JeremiahC99]

25 minutes ago, RtrainBlues said:

 

- Very large volume of senior citizens use the 91st/Shore Road stop on B16, and I believe they prefer the more direct route to/from the R at 86th rather than a very long meandering route via Shore Road/69th to the R train.

- Elimination of service from 91st/Shore to 4th/86th R train would be very unpopular. How would riders get from 91st/Shore to 86th/4th?  Would the elderly need to walk this long distance?  This would be a huge disaster with much complaining to local elected officials.

 

 

19 minutes ago, B46+SBS via Utica Av said:

Good point, large volumes of elderly do use the 91st Shore Rd Stop on the B16, and it will only cause more outcries of citizens not getting enough service or them complaining of elimination of service.

Due to reliability issues on the , I believe that these same people would actually be better off riding the meandering route to the 59th Street station to catch the more reliable  train. I use the  occasionally and I have friends who live in Sunset Park who use the line, and I know what these issues look like. have proposed fixed to   and  train issues on the subways thread, but I’m facing the reality that they won’t come for a very very long time.

However, if they want to use the 86th Street station, then what I recommend is a rush hour extension of the proposed B1 along Shore Road, operating every 8 minutes along that street (the regular B1 service between Shore Road and Manhattan Beach would run every 4 minutes). This should provide some service to the 86th Street stop for those who need it alongside the new B9 option. Other times, B9 service to the 59th Street station should be increased.

[B35 via Church]

7 hours ago, B46+SBS via Utica Av said:

..We have to think about Kings Highway.

Alot of customers on Kings Highway in Flatbush, East Flatbush are not serviced very well, and the B7 is the only route that goes via Kings Hwy strictly.

A lot of customers on Kings Highway in Flatbush & East Flatbush have no real use for the B7.....

Quote

Since the B82 leaves Kings Hwy, and goes on to Flatlands Av to Vandalia Housing in Starret City. Stops such as Kings Hwy & Foster, and Avenue D are underserviced, and passengers have to walk down to Avenue D and Utica just for the B46 SBS when they cut a perfectly good route. Something to think about.

You're framing the situation like SBS is the only service type offered along Utica av.... You may have chosen it for a forum handle & all, but there's still a little something called the B46 local.

Listen, people around here in this neighborhood gravitate towards the B46 for faster (and quite frankly, more reliable) access to the /... The B47 is the primary option, really, only for those more proximate to Ralph (over Utica).... If Ralph were closer to Utica, I'm pretty sure those same people would be taking B46's to Utica instead of taking the inferior B47 to Sutter/Rutland .... The B7 does much of nothing for the masses along Kings Highway....

Kings Hwy & the B7 around here doesn't remotely hold the relevance you're trying to convey here.... Outside of whatever ends up happening to the route in the actual Brooklyn Bus Network redesign itself, I'm not going to involve myself with anyone else's renditions of how the B7 should be dissolved.... With that said, IDK what the MTA has in store for the route, but if they were to do away with the Kings Hwy. portion specifically, I wouldn't wince.... Seriously doubt much of anyone around here in this neighborhood would either.

Edited November 28, 2019 by B35 via Church

[B46+SBS via Utica Av]

I doubt the MTA would adopt this plan and place it in reality though. The MTA is one of those companies that ask for your input but don't ever use anybody's input and make last minute decisions. 

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, B46+SBS via Utica Av said:

I doubt the MTA would adopt this plan and place it in reality though. The MTA is one of those companies that ask for your input but don't ever use anybody's input and make last minute decisions. 

Nobody's saying that they should though.... Nor anyone else's plans on this, or any other web forum.

[B46+SBS via Utica Av]

4 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

A lot of customers on Kings Highway in Flatbush & East Flatbush have no real use for the B7.....

You're framing the situation like SBS is the only service type offered along Utica av.... You may have chosen it for a forum handle & all, but there's still a little something called the B46 local.

Listen, people around here in this neighborhood gravitate towards the B46 for faster access to the /... The B47 is the primary option, really, only for those more proximate to Ralph (over Utica).... If Ralph were closer to Utica, I'm pretty sure those same people would be taking B46's to Utica instead of taking the inferior B47 to Sutter/Rutland .... The B7 does much of nothing for the masses along Kings Highway....

Kings Hwy & the B7 around here doesn't remotely hold the relevance you're trying to convey here.... Outside of the actual Brooklyn Bus Network redesign itself, I'm not going to involve myself with anyone else's renditions of how the B7 should be dissolved.... With that said, IDK what the MTA has in store for the route, but if they were to do away with the Kings Hwy. portion specifically, I wouldn't wince.... Seriously doubt much of anyone around here in this neighborhood would either.

You do make a good point. Considering the B7 ridership has gone down since 12.4% and has 5,091 riders in 2018; poorer in any other route. Thanks for your input

[B35 via Church]

3 minutes ago, B46+SBS via Utica Av said:

You do make a good point. Considering the B7 ridership has gone down since 12.4% and has 5,091 riders in 2018; poorer in any other route. Thanks for your input

Yeah, riders talk with their feet & there's been no shortage of it on that route- especially ever since the route's operations shifted to running out of FP (Fresh Pond Depot)....

[RtrainBlues]

How would people get from 91st/Shore to the busy shopping district of 86th/4th with elimination of B16 service?  The proposed scenario presents 2 options:  walk, or take a very meandering route up Shore to 69th, across 69th, then back on a southbound bus or R train. 

Also, the 91st/Shore stop has the medical center and is extremely highly used.

People don't limit their medical appointments or shopping excursions to weekday rush-hours.

Edited November 28, 2019 by RtrainBlues

[BrooklynBus]

8 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

How would people get from 91st/Shore to the busy shopping district of 86th/4th with elimination of B16 service?  The proposed scenario presents 2 options:  walk, or take a very meandering route up Shore to 69th, across 69th, then back on a southbound bus or R train. 

Also, the 91st/Shore stop has the medical center and is extremely highly used.

People don't limit their medical appointments or shopping excursions to weekday rush-hours.

Quote

 

As I stated, no plan will please everyone. It is hard to believe that that many people use that stop when B16 service is so poor to begin with. I believe far more people would prefer direct service to the N. As for your question of how the people at that particular stop would get to 86th Street 4th -Avenue who aren't using the subway, they would still be within the quarter-mile walking guideline to 86 St to pick up the B1. The major purpose of the plan is to insure that very few will have to walk more than a quarter mile to a bus or train which is not presently the case. 

[BrooklynBus]

9 hours ago, B46+SBS via Utica Av said:

I doubt the MTA would adopt this plan and place it in reality though. The MTA is one of those companies that ask for your input but don't ever use anybody's input and make last minute decisions. 

I share your concern which is why I am hoping that after the MTA releases its plan, and if it is not what people want, some will get behind this plan or some version of it and say we like this better, why can't you do it? That would force them to at least consider parts of it. 

The draft Queens plan is due out between December 4th and 7th. Someone who saw parts of it didn't like it.