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B46+SBS via Utica Av

Expanding the Crosstown Line aka The (G)

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7 minutes ago, B46+SBS via Utica Av said:

Expanding the Crosstown Line aka The (G)

We have a proposals thread for discussions like this. But I’ll share my 2 cents. 
 

Extend the Train Cars to 480’ (that means running 8-car R160’s and potentially 179’s on the (G))

Add 2 outer tracks at 36th Street Station and under Northern Blvd until Broadway where it can split up into 3 tracks going up Northern Blvd and stop at Junction Blvd as a Phase 1 Northern Blvd Extension. Stops will go as Follows. 
 

Queens Plaza - (E)(G) ( (R) is rerouted to Astoria)

36th Street - (F)(M)(G) ( (M) Service is moves to 63rd Street and all 6th Avenue service is local. (E) service gets and increase. This is part of a much Larger plan) 

48th Street - (G) (Northern Blvd is cut open to allow for 2 Tunnels and a Local Station.) 

Broadway - (F)(M)(G) 

62nd Street - (G) (Potential RX Connection)

80th Street - (G) 

Junction Blvd - (G) New Terminal. A Potential Spur Up to LaGuardia Can be built and the Line would be extended further up Northern Blvd. 

On the South End (East Of Bedford/Nostrand) A new tunnel should be built to connect the Crosstown Line with the Franklin (S) Shuttle. The Fankline Shuttle will be buried under its existing path and Franklin Avenue.
 

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1 hour ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

We have a proposals thread for discussions like this. But I’ll share my 2 cents. 
 

Extend the Train Cars to 480’ (that means running 8-car R160’s and potentially 179’s on the (G))

Add 2 outer tracks at 36th Street Station and under Northern Blvd until Broadway where it can split up into 3 tracks going up Northern Blvd and stop at Junction Blvd as a Phase 1 Northern Blvd Extension. Stops will go as Follows. 
 

Queens Plaza - (E)(G) ( (R) is rerouted to Astoria)

36th Street - (F)(M)(G) ( (M) Service is moves to 63rd Street and all 6th Avenue service is local. (E) service gets and increase. This is part of a much Larger plan) 

48th Street - (G) (Northern Blvd is cut open to allow for 2 Tunnels and a Local Station.) 

Broadway - (F)(M)(G) 

62nd Street - (G) (Potential RX Connection)

80th Street - (G) 

Junction Blvd - (G) New Terminal. A Potential Spur Up to LaGuardia Can be built and the Line would be extended further up Northern Blvd. 

On the South End (East Of Bedford/Nostrand) A new tunnel should be built to connect the Crosstown Line with the Franklin (S) Shuttle. The Fankline Shuttle will be buried under its existing path and Franklin Avenue.
 

I've definitely heard of the extension to Bedford/Nostrand from the (S). Sounds like alot of riders would be pleased if this action would be put into place   

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IMO the (G) needs better connections to other lines to function as an "outer ring" circulator of sorts more than it needs extensions:

Broadway (G) to Union Av (J)(M) (replacing Hewes and Lorimer) 

Fulton St (G) and Lafayette Av (C) to Atlantic-Barclays (2)(3)(4)(5)(B)(D)(N)(Q)(R) LIRR 

If there was a better way to turn trains at Queens Plaza and connect it with Queensboro Plaza (N)(W)(7), then that would be the only extension of the (G) that I think would be worthwhile.

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2 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

If there was a better way to turn trains at Queens Plaza and connect it with Queensboro Plaza (N)(W)(7), then that would be the only extension of the (G) that I think would be worthwhile.

I've always been partial to some route that hits Queensboro or 21 and then heads up 21 to serve that side of Astoria. There was also a map I saw that had it doing QBP-21 and then 86 St in Manhattan to complete a just-outside-the-core loop, which would be....super amazing, especially if paired with a Franklin Shuttle connection. 

Transfers should absolutely be the first priority though.

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6 hours ago, RR503 said:

I've always been partial to some route that hits Queensboro or 21 and then heads up 21 to serve that side of Astoria. There was also a map I saw that had it doing QBP-21 and then 86 St in Manhattan to complete a just-outside-the-core loop, which would be....super amazing, especially if paired with a Franklin Shuttle connection. 

Transfers should absolutely be the first priority though.

Personally, I've always favored 86-Astoria (since they basically more or less line up), as a northern trunk line in Queens landing somewhere that isn't LIC. (So a Queens secondary hub like how Brooklyn has both Downtown Brooklyn and WIlliamsburg for trains to go to.)

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On 11/29/2019 at 1:16 PM, B46+SBS via Utica Av said:

I've definitely heard of the extension to Bedford/Nostrand from the (S). Sounds like alot of riders would be pleased if this action would be put into place   

Given the numerous shutdowns and bustitutions along Brighton, that would be a welcome outlet for trains from Coney Island. Then, instead of taking a bus, walking to the nearest substitute station, or backtracking to Coney Island, passengers could take the rerouted (Q) to get the (2)(3)(4)(5) at Botanic Garden, (A)(C) at Franklin Avenue, (J)(M)(Z) at Union Avenue (if that becomes a thing), (L) at Metropolitan Avenue, and (7)(E)(M) at Court Square. With the exception of the Broadway Line, such a reroute covers all the Manhattan trunks: from east to west: 14 Street, Lexington Avenue, 6 Avenue (depending on time of day), 7 Avenue, 8 Avenue, 42 Street/11 Avenue. And one should be able to avoid a three-legged subway ride.

Who knows what regular service might look like if it’s ever built… Maybe the same as the (S) today but extended north.

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1 hour ago, CenSin said:

Given the numerous shutdowns and bustitutions along Brighton, that would be a welcome outlet for trains from Coney Island. Then, instead of taking a bus, walking to the nearest substitute station, or backtracking to Coney Island, passengers could take the rerouted (Q) to get the (2)(3)(4)(5) at Botanic Garden, (A)(C) at Franklin Avenue...

I always thought it shortsighted that the Franklin Shuttle rebuild reduced station length to 4 cars and a single track, and eliminated this as an option.

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14 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I always thought it shortsighted that the Franklin Shuttle rebuild reduced station length to 4 cars and a single track, and eliminated this as an option.

This is the MTA, where if the train isn't Manhattan it ain't happenin.

See: the amount of service run into Atlantic Terminal, even if a service disruption occurs at Penn Station

Also: that study for the Rockaway Beach Branch that was either totally f**ked up on purpose or a measure of sheer incompetence at MTACC

Edited by bobtehpanda
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6 hours ago, Deucey said:

I always thought it shortsighted that the Franklin Shuttle rebuild reduced station length to 4 cars and a single track, and eliminated this as an option.

The amount of $$$ the agency would save by avoiding busing for Brighton tunnel shutdowns alone would make this a worthwhile investment. But alas, that's too much brain. 

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7 hours ago, Deucey said:

I always thought it shortsighted that the Franklin Shuttle rebuild reduced station length to 4 cars and a single track, and eliminated this as an option.

Its actually even worse than that... 2 75' cars only.

Rebuilding the whole line to at least 5 60' cars and Botanic Garden to 10 car trains should be a priority before the R68s get replaced.

Edited by Around the Horn
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Is the suggestion to extend the Franklin Ave S northbound to terminate at Bedford-Nostrand on the G ?  

I don't understand what route a "rerouted Q" would take.  Is this suggestion in Brooklyn, or in Manhattan (to go from 86/2nd to Astoria Blvd, for example)?

I can't see how any suggestion would help Q passengers if there is a Q shutdown between Atlantic and Kings Hwy, as has been the case recently. 

If the Q shutdown were only between Atlantic & Prospect Park, wouldn't most passengers find it quicker to take the Franklin Shuttle followed by the 2/3/4/5, instead of getting stuck in insane gridlock around Flatbush Ave on a shuttle bus?

 

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I'd like to see the (G) turn towards Manhattan as a 34th St Crosstown after Manhattan Ave. There would be stops at 3rd-Park Aves (Transfer to (6)), 5-6 Aves (Transfer to (B)(D)(F)(M)(N)(Q)(R)(W)), 7-8th Aves/Penn Sta (Transfer to (A)(C)(E)(1)(2)(3)), and Hudson Yards (Transfer to (7)). 

I'd run the trains with T/Os at both ends, so at Hudson Yards, the train simply backs out and then runs down the QB Local to Forest Hills. The (F)(M) are placed in a new bypass QB Express line and the (E)'s service is bumped to 30tph. The QB Local will be the (G)(R) with the (G) now offering Manhattan service via 34th st. 

This will help the (L) tremendously, with 15tph on the (G) being able to carry North Brooklyn riders to 34th St. This also gives QB an extra Manhattan option as well. Until the QB Bypass is built we can send the (M) up Second Ave and just have the setup as: 

Express (E) 8th ave/53rd st (F) 6th ave/63rd st

Local (G) 34st Crosstown (R) Broadway/59st

 

 

 

Edited by shiznit1987
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E, F and R trains have been cut back to every 12 minutes permanently on weekends due to the neverending (how many more years will it be) construction work to implement CBTC.  There is no way any G trains can go down the Queens Blvd line until this  work is complete.

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33 minutes ago, RtrainBlues said:

E, F and R trains have been cut back to every 12 minutes permanently on weekends due to the neverending (how many more years will it be) construction work to implement CBTC.  There is no way any G trains can go down the Queens Blvd line until this  work is complete.

For what he’s suggesting they do, it will be quite some time before it can happen, assuming the MTA are even willing to entertain the idea of a 34th Street Crosstown (G). By then, Queens Blvd CBTC work will be finished. 

3 hours ago, shiznit1987 said:

I'd like to see the (G) turn towards Manhattan as a 34th St Crosstown after Manhattan Ave. There would be stops at 3rd-Park Aves (Transfer to (6)), 5-6 Aves (Transfer to (B)(D)(F)(M)(N)(Q)(R)(W)), 7-8th Aves/Penn Sta (Transfer to (A)(C)(E)(1)(2)(3)), and Hudson Yards (Transfer to (7)). 

I'd run the trains with T/Os at both ends, so at Hudson Yards, the train simply backs out and then runs down the QB Local to Forest Hills. The (F)(M) are placed in a new bypass QB Express line and the (E)'s service is bumped to 30tph. The QB Local will be the (G)(R) with the (G) now offering Manhattan service via 34th st. 

This will help the (L) tremendously, with 15tph on the (G) being able to carry North Brooklyn riders to 34th St. This also gives QB an extra Manhattan option as well. Until the QB Bypass is built we can send the (M) up Second Ave and just have the setup as: 

Express (E) 8th ave/53rd st (F) 6th ave/63rd st

Local (G) 34st Crosstown (R) Broadway/59st

I’m not sure this would work the way you’re suggesting it. I think it would be much more workable to run two separate routes along 34th;  one to Church Ave via the current route, which we can call the (G), and the other route turning north onto the former QBL (G) route using a different letter, perhaps H (maybe it can even be routed onto the rebuilt Rockaway Branch, which is still internally known as the (H)). You’d have to build an underground wye junction perpendicular to the current (G) line either in Greenpoint or Long Island City to make it work. That wye would be needed anyway, even they operated it the way you’re suggesting. It’s just a lot easier to run separate G and H services. 

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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Would it be more trouble than it's worth to do some tunneling to connect the A/C/G trains to Atlantic Av? Lafayette St and Fulton St stations would be abandoned in this case. I've also personally pictured what other people have said, with the G connecting to the N/W/7 trains at Queensboro and then the F at Queensbridge, and from there going up 21st and then across 86th st in Manhattan.

If you want to get even crazier with it, you could then connect this to a Bergenline Ave line in NJ, and even crazier still have the G turn westward to make stops in Red Hook and then finish the loop from Liberty State Park. There's obviously a ton of legal jurisdictional things that would need to change for this to happen and it probably is way down the list of things to do in the city in terms of transit projects, but its been a fun fantasy of mine having a big outer-ring subway line.

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On 12/1/2019 at 3:39 PM, Deucey said:

I always thought it shortsighted that the Franklin Shuttle rebuild reduced station length to 4 cars and a single track, and eliminated this as an option.

The only reason the shuttle wasn't eliminated entirely was a political sop to the residents of Crown Heights and that corner of Bed-Stuy. The largely minority population was up in arms over the possible shutdown. Remember the fiscal crisis later on concerning the same corridor ? When the B48 bus was truncated to Franklin Avenue and Fulton Street.  How were the Crown Heights people supposed to travel from Bedford-Stuyvesant to the southern part of Crown Heights and Prospect-Lefferts without the shuttle?  As bobtepanda said earlier the (MTA) isn't focused on Queens service into Brooklyn. An established ridership base .Whatever the merits of some of these proposals I can almost guarantee that those with the power would laugh amongst themselves before adding them to the shredder file. That's the political reality. My opinion. Carry on. 

Edited by Trainmaster5
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1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The only reason the shuttle wasn't eliminated entirely was a political sop to the residents of Crown Heights and that corner of Bed-Stuy. The largely minority population was up in arms over the possible shutdown. Remember the fiscal crisis later on concerning the same corridor ? When the B48 bus was truncated to Franklin Avenue and Fulton Street.  How were the Crown Heights people supposed to travel from Bedford-Stuyvesant to the southern part of Crown Heights and Prospect-Lefferts without the shuttle?  As bobtepanda said earlier the (MTA) isn't focused on Queens service into Brooklyn. An established ridership base .Whatever the merits of some of these proposals I can almost guarantee that those with the power would laugh amongst themselves before adding them to the shredder file. That's the political reality. My opinion. Carry on. 

I remember reading in the NYT when it reopened and the battle to keep it from closing.

I’m just on the “why shrink it and reduce its potential utility” when something happens and redundant connections would be beneficial” tip. (Q) to connect to the IRT or Fulton St Line if - like they’re doing now - service to DeKalb Av is disrupted.

Even if there was a serious effort to connect FAS to (G) at Bed-Nos or Classon, the property-takings on Franklin to put it underground (including possibly rebuilding the Fulton tunnel), or building an El - it’s expensive and probably not feasible.

But eliminating redundant capacity that’d keep people moving just seemed stupidly shortsighted for an era when (MTA) seemed to have more of its ish together.

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2 hours ago, Deucey said:

I remember reading in the NYT when it reopened and the battle to keep it from closing.

I’m just on the “why shrink it and reduce its potential utility” when something happens and redundant connections would be beneficial” tip. (Q) to connect to the IRT or Fulton St Line if - like they’re doing now - service to DeKalb Av is disrupted.

Even if there was a serious effort to connect FAS to (G) at Bed-Nos or Classon, the property-takings on Franklin to put it underground (including possibly rebuilding the Fulton tunnel), or building an El - it’s expensive and probably not feasible.

But eliminating redundant capacity that’d keep people moving just seemed stupidly shortsighted for an era when (MTA) seemed to have more of its ish together.

Imagine if it weren’t neutered. All those painful weekends of track work that knocked out the Brighton Line’s direct connection to Manhattan would be at least mitigated by having a direct connection to another line that did. The substitutes would be simple:

  • 7 Avenue: transfer to the (2)(3) at Botanic Garden and get off at Grand Army Plaza or Bergen Street
  • Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center: transfer to the (2)(3)(4)(5) at Botanic Garden
  • DeKalb Avenue: transfer to the (2)(3)(4)(5) at Botanic Garden and get off at Nevins Street
  • Canal Street: transfer to the (C) at Franklin Avenue and get off at Canal Street and walk
  • 14 Street–Union Square: transfer to the (2)(3)(4)(5) at Botanic Garden
  • 34 Street–Herald Square: transfer to the (2)(3) at Botanic Garden and get off at 34 Street–Penn Station
  • Times Square–42 Street: transfer to the (2)(3) at Botanic Garden or (C) at Franklin Avenue and get off at 42 Street
  • 57 Street–7 Avenue: transfer to the (C) at Franklin Avenue and get off at 59 Street–Columbus Circle
  • Lexington Avenue–63 Street: transfer to the (4)(5) at Botanic Garden and get off at 59 Street

Just about all the (Q) stops (except those along 2 Avenue) have single-transfer alternatives. It’s surprising how much of a headache the MTA could have saved riders if it had not borked the rebuild of the shuttle in the first place.

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Sure, they should've rebuilt the line to be in line with Brighton proper. It only would've meant considerably more expense for a service change that happens quite infrequently, while the regular demand would remain well below potential capacity even with an extension somewhere.

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9 hours ago, Lex said:

Sure, they should've rebuilt the line to be in line with Brighton proper. It only would've meant considerably more expense for a service change that happens quite infrequently, while the regular demand would remain well below potential capacity even with an extension somewhere.

You shouldn’t ever just build for present needs. If the MTA is bad at anything, it’s playing the long game.

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If you want to give the truncated (Q) access to the (2)(3)(4)(5) , the only change that needs to be made is extending the southbound platform at Botanic Garden. The (S) would then run on a single track between Franklin Avenue and Botanic Garden.

Of course, the main problem is that neither Botanic Garden nor the connection to the (2)(3)(4)(5) are ADA accessible. So either you would still need to run shuttle buses, or you'd have to figure out how to make the complex accessible. I think you could get away with installing 2 ramps and 2 elevators, but even that would significantly add to the project's cost.

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9 hours ago, CenSin said:

You shouldn’t ever just build for present needs. If the MTA is bad at anything, it’s playing the long game.

Reading is fundamental.

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