OMNY implementation on MNR/LIRR

[Optheduim]

Anyone know of any updates around this currently (as of Jan 2021)? My understanding that OMNY for commuter rail has been pushed back a year. I would assume due to the COVID funding issues. However, there is still no clear implementation scheme.

[danielhg121]

12 minutes ago, Optheduim said:

Anyone know of any updates around this currently (as of Jan 2021)? My understanding that OMNY for commuter rail has been pushed back a year. I would assume due to the COVID funding issues. However, there is still no clear implementation scheme.

I don't think they're said anything about OMNY implementation except that it will be implemented. In fact, they're actually tight-lipped about this just in case they switch up plans, they don't want to jump the gun and reverse their decision later. There is an article published by The LIRR Today that discusses potential implementations the MTA may carry out, it's not an official source, just something to pique your curiosity: https://www.thelirrtoday.com/2020/11/electronic-ticketing.html.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, danielhg121 said:

I don't think they're said anything about OMNY implementation except that it will be implemented. In fact, they're actually tight-lipped about this just in case they switch up plans, they don't want to jump the gun and reverse their decision later. There is an article published by The LIRR Today that discusses potential implementations the MTA may carry out, it's not an official source, just something to pique your curiosity: https://www.thelirrtoday.com/2020/11/electronic-ticketing.html.

  

1 hour ago, Optheduim said:

Anyone know of any updates around this currently (as of Jan 2021)? My understanding that OMNY for commuter rail has been pushed back a year. I would assume due to the COVID funding issues. However, there is still no clear implementation scheme.

 

Everyone is going to have to sit back and wait and be patient.  I've been saying over and over that they don't know the exact plans for everything because this is still an experiment to see how everything works and to fix any kinks along the way. The pandemic has created another wrinkle in the situation.  There's no rush in any event because you can still buy e-tickets for the LIRR and MNRR.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[RtrainBlues]

Anyone who has ever stood at Atlantic Terminal around 8am/8:30am on a weekday knows that OMNY tap-in/tap-out would be doomed to fail.  The arriving LIRR train is so full that it needs about 10-15 minutes just to have passengers exit, as the last few cars can't platform at Atlantic Terminal.  Would we want people waiting 45-60 minutes to "tap out"? Would conductors allow all of their jobs to be eliminated if OMNY replaces their job of punching tickets?  Will safety concerns arise if their jobs are eliminated (safety for train movement and safety from crime)?

[Mtatransit]

1 hour ago, RtrainBlues said:

Anyone who has ever stood at Atlantic Terminal around 8am/8:30am on a weekday knows that OMNY tap-in/tap-out would be doomed to fail.  The arriving LIRR train is so full that it needs about 10-15 minutes just to have passengers exit, as the last few cars can't platform at Atlantic Terminal.  Would we want people waiting 45-60 minutes to "tap out"? Would conductors allow all of their jobs to be eliminated if OMNY replaces their job of punching tickets?  Will safety concerns arise if their jobs are eliminated (safety for train movement and safety from crime)?

Passenger rail in Europe and newer commuter rail in the U.S already uses a tap in/out system. European trains are packed and there is no problem there. 

Plus most LIRR are commuters, so if the passes are activated, they most likely wouldn't even need to tap off.

So that leaves you with passengers who have one way/RT tickets and pay per ride customers. One way riders probably wouldn't need to tap in or out as well as MTA will most likely just give them a SBS style proof of purchase

There is no safety issue. MTA can continue to maintain two crew per trains. They have the option to reduce that to OPTO.

 

The only problem here is that the unions will not agree to the job elimination

Edited January 18, 2021 by Mtatransit

[Via Garibaldi 8]

16 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Passenger rail in Europe and newer commuter rail in the U.S already uses a tap in/out system. European trains are packed and there is no problem there. 

Plus most LIRR are commuters, so if the passes are activated, they most likely wouldn't even need to tap off.

So that leaves you with passengers who have one way/RT tickets and pay per ride customers. One way riders probably wouldn't need to tap in or out as well as MTA will most likely just give them a SBS style proof of purchase

There is no safety issue. MTA can continue to maintain two crew per trains. They have the option to reduce that to OPTO.

 

The only problem here is that the unions will not agree to the job elimination

 

2 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

Anyone who has ever stood at Atlantic Terminal around 8am/8:30am on a weekday knows that OMNY tap-in/tap-out would be doomed to fail.  The arriving LIRR train is so full that it needs about 10-15 minutes just to have passengers exit, as the last few cars can't platform at Atlantic Terminal.  Would we want people waiting 45-60 minutes to "tap out"? Would conductors allow all of their jobs to be eliminated if OMNY replaces their job of punching tickets?  Will safety concerns arise if their jobs are eliminated (safety for train movement and safety from crime)?

I haven't heard of any such plan? Is this speculation?

[Mtatransit]

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 

I haven't heard of any such plan? Is this speculation?

Its a response to the LIRRtoday post above which does advocate elimination of conductors to save money.

Quite frankly, I think it makes sense.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Mtatransit

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

Its a response to the LIRRtoday post above which does advocate elimination of conductors to save money.

Quite frankly, I think it makes sense.

I see. I agree. I don't see the unions going along with that set up.

[RapidoNewLook]

Isn't the LIRR regulated by the FRA, and therefore mandated by law to have 2 person train crews, an engineer and conductor?

[Mtatransit]

1 hour ago, RapidoNewLook said:

Isn't the LIRR regulated by the FRA, and therefore mandated by law to have 2 person train crews, an engineer and conductor?

The trump adminstration changed the rules, so transit agencies could operate with only one crew

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/white-house-pulls-rule-that-would-require-two-member-crew-in-locomotives/2019/06/12/29d6e1b0-8bb0-11e9-adf3-f70f78c156e8_story.html

[bobtehpanda]

On 1/17/2021 at 7:29 PM, RapidoNewLook said:

Isn't the LIRR regulated by the FRA, and therefore mandated by law to have 2 person train crews, an engineer and conductor?

The LIRR also staffs trains well in excess of two people, and I thought the people who collect tickets mostly do ticket collection, though are available as backup conductors

Edited January 19, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[bobtehpanda]

On 1/17/2021 at 5:13 PM, Mtatransit said:

Passenger rail in Europe and newer commuter rail in the U.S already uses a tap in/out system. European trains are packed and there is no problem there. 

Plus most LIRR are commuters, so if the passes are activated, they most likely wouldn't even need to tap off.

To add onto this, if passenger volumes are really too high systems can and do install a normal turnstile bank or ticket line. Back when old South Ferry was running the limit on throughput was not the turnstile bank. They don't even need to have actual turnstiles, at the airport station here the POP "gate line" is actually just a bunch of turnstile-spaced readers with no barrier in the middle.  (3:18-ish in this video)

 

And with the pending arrival of ESA, I have a hard time believing the LIRR shuttles they run will be unable to platform to that degree. 

[RtrainBlues]

Extra crew would have helped here: https://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/ntsb-brooklyn-crash-injured-1.16579846

Many people no longer feel safe riding the subway, with so many people being pushed onto the platform recently, being stabbed at Times Square last night, etc.  How safe would LIRR riders feel taking the LIRR under reduced staff, knowing that people could just jump past fare control at stations and harass them and/or hurt them onboard the train?  Do riders want the "Show-Time" dancers to come to the LIRR?  They've almost kicked people in the face several times.  The conductors in every other car keep things safe. Passengers currently pay a premium fare for good service and don't want a "tap in, tap out" system like the DC subway.  Do we want to push riders away by eliminating conductor jobs?

 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by RtrainBlues

[Mtatransit]

2 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

Extra crew would have helped here: https://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/ntsb-brooklyn-crash-injured-1.16579846

Many people no longer feel safe riding the subway, with so many people being pushed onto the platform recently, being stabbed at Times Square last night, etc.  How safe would LIRR riders feel taking the LIRR under reduced staff, knowing that people could just jump past fare control at stations and harass them and/or hurt them onboard the train?  Do riders want the "Show-Time" dancers to come to the LIRR?  They've almost kicked people in the face several times.  The conductors in every other car keep things safe. Passengers currently pay a premium fare for good service and don't want a "tap in, tap out" system like the DC subway.  Do we want to push riders away by eliminating conductor jobs?

 

 

LIRR already had more than two crews prior to the accident. We can still have two crews per train. But those extra conductors who's sole purpose is to collect tickets will be eliminated

The money saved from not having extra conductors will be used to invest in more MTA police to prevent that kind of things.

Plus Metro North covers 70% of its operation from fares. If we eliminate conductors, both LIRR and MNR will probably make a profit, allowing for more trains or a fare reduction.

If you haven't noticed, those showtime dancer primarily prey on TOURISTS. That is why they disappeared during the pandemic.  Once those showtime dancers realize nobody is going to give them squat on LIRR/MNR they will quickly disappear. 

Finally, we could have someone manning each car to really keep passengers safe, but we all know how inefficent that is. 

[RtrainBlues]

I think we can agree to disagree.  In today's environment, I don't think extra police will happen. Fare reductions would never happen, just like the Verrazzano Bridge toll will never be reduced.  I felt very unsafe on MARTA's trains (tap in, tap out) in upscale Buckhead and that was during afternoon rush-hour (large group of teens was acting up).  I was amazed at how empty MARTA trains were during rush-hour, and I bet it was due to crime and lack of conductors checking tickets.  Do we want the same to happen to Seaford and Garden City commuters?  They'll drive instead. We are paying for service, safety, and more of a personal touch.  We get to know our conductors and they make for a pleasant safe ride.  The showtime dancers were always on the Q over the bridge or the E express in Queens - those aren't tourist audiences who ride in those locations; those are people who live in NYC.  Also, I don't think political leaders and the unions would allow the MTA to eliminate so many jobs.  Bottom line, the MTA will make a decision, and I bet it'll be using OMNY as a CHOICE to pay for your paper ticket.  We'll have to wait and see what the MTA decides.

Edited January 20, 2021 by RtrainBlues

[Mtatransit]

1 hour ago, RtrainBlues said:

I think we can agree to disagree.  In today's environment, I don't think extra police will happen. Fare reductions would never happen, just like the Verrazzano Bridge toll will never be reduced.  I felt very unsafe on MARTA's trains (tap in, tap out) in upscale Buckhead and that was during afternoon rush-hour (large group of teens was acting up).  I was amazed at how empty MARTA trains were during rush-hour, and I bet it was due to crime and lack of conductors checking tickets.  Do we want the same to happen to Seaford and Garden City commuters?  They'll drive instead. We are paying for service, safety, and more of a personal touch.  We get to know our conductors and they make for a pleasant safe ride.  The showtime dancers were always on the Q over the bridge or the E express in Queens - those aren't tourist audiences who ride in those locations; those are people who live in NYC.  Also, I don't think political leaders and the unions would allow the MTA to eliminate so many jobs.  Bottom line, the MTA will make a decision, and I bet it'll be using OMNY as a CHOICE to pay for your paper ticket.  We'll have to wait and see what the MTA decides.

I just think that it is a good opportunity to keep cost of operation in line. While keeping the conductor is good for the union, it is not good for the finances of the  and the taxpayer. 

Even if fares don't go down, it will no doubt reduce operating expense and create a surplus for the  budget, which can be used to keep fares flat or add more service.

We can even get it down to two crews per train if the fear is such a big issue. This way each train will still have one conductor to prevent any issue while still saving money.

We all complain about the ever increasing  fares and the ever ballooning  deficit and debt. I think it is responsible for the MTA to try to rein in their expenses. The union will no doubt be against this because it means layoff, but hard decisions will have to be made in the future years. We escaped doomsday this year, but that doesn't mean the  is in the clear yet. 

 may very well take that route of using OMNY as an alternative to paper tickets. That's ultimately up to them. I just hope they take the fiscally responsible route and not the ststus quo.

But I still respect your opinion. I just think the tradeoff is worth it.

[Around the Horn]

On 1/19/2021 at 7:13 PM, RtrainBlues said:

How safe would LIRR riders feel taking the LIRR under reduced staff, knowing that people could just jump past fare control at stations and harass them and/or hurt them onboard the train?  Do riders want the "Show-Time" dancers to come to the LIRR?  They've almost kicked people in the face several times. 

Showtime dancers? on LIRR? You know full well that's never happening regardless...

On 1/19/2021 at 7:13 PM, RtrainBlues said:

 The conductors in every other car keep things safe. Passengers currently pay a premium fare for good service and don't want a "tap in, tap out" system like the DC subway.  Do we want to push riders away by eliminating conductor jobs?

The elephant in the room is that with the MTA's finances they won't have any service if it continues to cost over $400 million to staff extra conductors on trains.

The peak direction 9-5 Central Business District commuter ridership model that both LIRR and Metro-North are intended for is just simply not economically sustainable anymore in a world with WFH, multiple CBDs in the region, reverse peak commuting, staggered shifts, and increases in off-peak usage. And that's not even considering the money set on fire each day on storing trains off peak (the average LIRR train spends 18 hours sitting in the yard each day) and paying full crews a minimum of 8 hours even if they only work a single peak period etc, etc.

A shift to a proof-of-payment fare model is pretty much the only way we'll see significant improvements in LIRR/MNR service because it costs so much to crew trains. Reducing crew sizes now opens up opportunities for them to spend more on operations adding more trips to the schedules.

[RtrainBlues]

It's a similar logic to "let's eliminate all the token booth clerks" to save money and have more service or less of a fare hike.  You can't put a price on safety, or your life.  I don't believe eliminating most LIRR conductors will bring more service.  I bet it will be used to line the pockets of the MTA managers.  And will lead to mass layoffs.

Perhaps you don't need approx 8 conductors on a Ronkonkoma train, and can get by with only 4.  And you can assign conductors to shorter routes (like Hempstead) during the mid-day, if they have free time on their hands.  The answer is to reassign them strategically, not take away their jobs.  I'd rather wait a little extra for a train that moves faster (no congestion) and is fully staffed for safety.  I don't want the extra service that will lead to congestion & safety issues.

"Proof of payment" on the Q53 has brought many loitering people to the area by the wildlife refuge, in the heart of Broad Channel, etc.  They are talking to themselves and acting erratically.  It's not a model for those who want safety on their mass transit.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Showtime dancers? on LIRR? You know full well that's never happening regardless...

The elephant in the room is that with the MTA's finances they won't have any service if it continues to cost over $400 million to staff extra conductors on trains.

The peak direction 9-5 Central Business District commuter ridership model that both LIRR and Metro-North are intended for is just simply not economically sustainable anymore in a world with WFH, multiple CBDs in the region, reverse peak commuting, staggered shifts, and increases in off-peak usage. And that's not even considering the money set on fire each day on storing trains off peak (the average LIRR train spends 18 hours sitting in the yard each day) and paying full crews a minimum of 8 hours even if they only work a single peak period etc, etc.

A shift to a proof-of-payment fare model is pretty much the only way we'll see significant improvements in LIRR/MNR service because it costs so much to crew trains. Reducing crew sizes now opens up opportunities for them to spend more on operations adding more trips to the schedules.

You obviously don't ride the LIRR often because there are DEFINITELY panhandlers on some trains. It's nothing like the subway, but they certainly exist.  The other thing you and a few others keep yelling about is this idea that the  will spend the savings on more service. Don't be so sure about that. They want to cut costs, not add more service

10 minutes ago, RtrainBlues said:

It's a similar logic to "let's eliminate all the token booth clerks" to save money and have more service or less of a fare hike.  You can't put a price on safety, or your life.  I don't believe eliminating most LIRR conductors will bring more service.  I bet it will be used to line the pockets of the MTA managers.  And will lead to mass layoffs.

Perhaps you don't need approx 8 conductors on a Ronkonkoma train, and can get by with only 4.  And you can assign conductors to shorter routes (like Hempstead) during the mid-day, if they have free time on their hands.  The answer is to reassign them strategically, not take away their jobs.  I'd rather wait a little extra for a train that moves faster (no congestion) and is fully staffed for safety.  I don't want the extra service that will lead to congestion & safety issues.

"Proof of payment" on the Q53 has brought many loitering people to the area by the wildlife refuge, in the heart of Broad Channel, etc.  They are talking to themselves and acting erratically.  It's not a model for those who want safety on their mass transit.

I agree with you 100% as a MNRR rider and an occasional LIRR rider.  

[paulrivera]

3 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

Perhaps you don't need approx 8 conductors on a Ronkonkoma train

They really have 8 conductors on a typical LIRR train?

 

21 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

The elephant in the room is that with the MTA's finances they won't have any service if it continues to cost over $400 million to staff extra conductors on trains.

3 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

And you can assign conductors to shorter routes (like Hempstead) during the mid-day, if they have free time on their hands.

On Metro-North I've seen some conductors interline between trains going the same direction. One time I saw a conductor working on a GCT-Stamford local train and when I transferred to the New Haven train at Stamford, he met the incoming express from GCT and worked my connecting train too. You can assume they don't need as many conductors from 125th to Stamford on an express run but they might be needed on the local run afterwards.

I'm sure my example is uncommon, but there are ways you can indeed keep crew costs from ballooning without compromising safety or jobs.

[Mtatransit]

4 hours ago, RtrainBlues said:

It's a similar logic to "let's eliminate all the token booth clerks" to save money and have more service or less of a fare hike.  You can't put a price on safety, or your life.  I don't believe eliminating most LIRR conductors will bring more service.  I bet it will be used to line the pockets of the MTA managers.  And will lead to mass layoffs.

Perhaps you don't need approx 8 conductors on a Ronkonkoma train, and can get by with only 4.  And you can assign conductors to shorter routes (like Hempstead) during the mid-day, if they have free time on their hands.  The answer is to reassign them strategically, not take away their jobs.  I'd rather wait a little extra for a train that moves faster (no congestion) and is fully staffed for safety.  I don't want the extra service that will lead to congestion & safety issues.

"Proof of payment" on the Q53 has brought many loitering people to the area by the wildlife refuge, in the heart of Broad Channel, etc.  They are talking to themselves and acting erratically.  It's not a model for those who want safety on their mass transit.

MTA managers are not CEO's at a private company. they don't really make that much money. This is especially true for middle managements

The goal here is to increase service outside of rush hours. So therefore the capacity is there. Conductors can not be assigned efficently no matter how hard you try if the service between midday and rush hours is so different. There are simply much more trains during rush hour than middays and nights. 

Conductors could be trained as engineers for additional services.

Proof of payment is actualy harder to farebeat than the subway. All the "loitering people" could've just eneterd thru the emergency gate or hop the turnstile than risk getting a $110 ticket for non payment of service. Plus in San Francisco, Caltrain uses POP, yet the homeless doesn't board those trains. 

Cracking down on fare envasion is the best way fight crimes on mass transit. That's why I believe NYC subway it self should have tap in AND OUT as well as new turnstiles to prevent hopping.

There has to be a point where the creduction of service cost outweight the precieved safety effect.

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The other thing you and a few others keep yelling about is this idea that the  will spend the savings on more service. Don't be so sure about that. They want to cut costs, not add more service

Even if MTA does not increase their service, I believe they should prioritize operating efficient train service. Having 8 conductors per rush hour train is not efficent. 

If we could get to a POP system and have two staff on board (if safety is such an issue), it would reduce both fare beating and service delivery cost. Right now, on MNR once you leave Manhattan conductors don't really collect tickets. That make me believe that there are intermediate passsengers who are currently not paying. With a POP system, a $110 fine will get them to evaluate the risk of doing that.

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

They really have 8 conductors on a typical LIRR train?

 

On Metro-North I've seen some conductors interline between trains going the same direction. One time I saw a conductor working on a GCT-Stamford local train and when I transferred to the New Haven train at Stamford, he met the incoming express from GCT and worked my connecting train too. You can assume they don't need as many conductors from 125th to Stamford on an express run but they might be needed on the local run afterwards.

I'm sure my example is uncommon, but there are ways you can indeed keep crew costs from ballooning without compromising safety or jobs.

LIRR does that as well I believe on the main line at Hicksville. The problem is that the volume of the trains is greater in one direction compared to the other direction. For example, there is a near 3 hour gap in reverse peak train service during the PM rush hour on the Ronk and PJ branch

[Around the Horn]

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

They really have 8 conductors on a typical LIRR train?

For the long 12 car trains yes.

The sneaky thing they do is designate half of them as assistant conductors, so while in actuality you have 8 crew members on a train, if you were to ask LIRR they'll tell you no we only have four (because the other four are assistants)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Mtatransit said:

There has to be a point where the creduction of service cost outweight the precieved safety effect.

Even if MTA does not increase their service, I believe they should prioritize operating efficient train service. Having 8 conductors per rush hour train is not efficent. 

If we could get to a POP system and have two staff on board (if safety is such an issue), it would reduce both fare beating and service delivery cost. Right now, on MNR once you leave Manhattan conductors don't really collect tickets. That make me believe that there are intermediate passsengers who are currently not paying. With a POP system, a $110 fine will get them to evaluate the risk of doing that.

LIRR does that as well I believe on the main line at Hicksville. The problem is that the volume of the trains is greater in one direction compared to the other direction. For example, there is a near 3 hour gap in reverse peak train service during the PM rush hour on the Ronk and PJ branch

Having eight conductors per rush hour is the exception! not the rule. I definitely don't see that on Metro-North rush hour trains I've been on with long train sets. I would not want to have less than two staff on board to ensure that safety is maintained and to keep people from skipping the fare. Some people like to hide in the bathroom to try to hide from paying, both on LIRR and MNRR trains.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Jsunflyguy]

  

2 hours ago, paulrivera said:

They really have 8 conductors on a typical LIRR train?

 

 

58 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

For the long 12 car trains yes.

The sneaky thing they do is designate half of them as assistant conductors, so while in actuality you have 8 crew members on a train, if you were to ask LIRR they'll tell you no we only have four (because the other four are assistants)

No, it isn't. Even the Cannonball is only scheduled for 4 Collectors making a total of 6 (including Conductor and Brakeman). There are a handful of trains that exceed that number, but this consists of getting collectors on a Reverse Peak train so they can run back and collect another peak train. Given the MNR/LIRR are set up as peak commuter operation this inherently puts a lot of Collectors in one place. That's not really a symptom of a blunder in scheduling, the route network forces these things if you want the Collectors to have a high amount of productive time.

 

On 1/19/2021 at 10:17 PM, Mtatransit said:

 

The money saved from not having extra conductors will be used to invest in more MTA police to prevent that kind of things.

Plus Metro North covers 70% of its operation from fares. If we eliminate conductors, both LIRR and MNR will probably make a profit, allowing for more trains or a fare reduction.

Police are more expensive than Conductors. Also, I'm not sure where you're sourcing that 70% number, without publishing internal docs, the farebox hovers around 50% for all modes.  https://www.gothamgazette.com/politics/130-opinion/8182-lirr-s-heavy-subsidies-and-the-coming-debate-over-mta-funding



 

On 1/19/2021 at 1:51 PM, bobtehpanda said:

The LIRR also staffs trains well in excess of two people, and I thought the people who collect tickets mostly do ticket collection, though are available as backup conductors

Yes and no, the Collector (Assistant Conductor) position is an unqualified position meaning they are not required to be qualified on the rules of the operating department or physical characteristics, anyone how is qualified on those things gets priority in being assigned to a Conductor position. You do have Collectors and Brakemen who are qualified because there is a mandatory promotion, but for the most part the people you see punching tickets are in a 'journeyman' position, and if you are qualified but 'work down' you take a 20% pay cut. It's pretty common for the Conductor to be the only qualified Trainman in a consist.

[paulrivera]

50 minutes ago, Jsunflyguy said:

Police are more expensive than Conductors.

In that case, if we were to go full on POP on MNR/LIRR, hiring more enforcement while trimming down on collectors would be a net loss actually. Trimming down on collectors while not hiring more enforcement would also cause a net loss since more people in city limits ('sup, Fordham and Atlantic?) would try to beat the fare... or maybe even bring "Showtime" and all that nefarious stuff to the commuter railroad.

8 conductors on a 12 car train is too much imho; they should go with a conductor at every other car at the most (2 on a scoot shuttle, 3-4 on most mainline trains, and 6 in a 12 car train).

It's a really delicate balance for the commuter railroads.