OMNY implementation on MNR/LIRR

[Jsunflyguy]

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

In that case, if we were to go full on POP on MNR/LIRR, hiring more enforcement while trimming down on collectors would be a net loss actually. Trimming down on collectors while not hiring more enforcement would also cause a net loss since more people in city limits ('sup, Fordham and Atlantic?) would try to beat the fare... or maybe even bring "Showtime" and all that nefarious stuff to the commuter railroad.

8 conductors on a 12 car train is too much imho; they should go with a conductor at every other car at the most (2 on a scoot shuttle, 3-4 on most mainline trains, and 6 in a 12 car train).

It's a really delicate balance for the commuter railroads.

As I said, the '8 conductors' isn't really a thing outside of a few narrow circumstances where multiple collectors are riding the one reverse peak train that gets them back somewhere useful.

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

In that case, if we were to go full on POP on MNR/LIRR, hiring more enforcement while trimming down on collectors would be a net loss actually. Trimming down on collectors while not hiring more enforcement would also cause a net loss since more people in city limits ('sup, Fordham and Atlantic?) would try to beat the fare... or maybe even bring "Showtime" and all that nefarious stuff to the commuter railroad.

Not really, pretty much no sane implementation of POP would even go 1:1 replacement for inspectors to conductors. Essentially, the fine needs to be some multiple of a monthly pass, and you only need to have a good chance of getting caught during the equivalent fine equivalent time, for the enforcement to make sense. But this requires a lot less people than trying to punch everybody's train tickets on every train every day.

To put this in perspective, San Francisco Muni operates an all-POP bus and light rail system. With about 51 million annual riders, it employs a total of 46 fare inspectors (who are not police, so I don't even know why we're even making that comparison). If you scale that up to LIRR's 2018 ridership of 89 million, you would need to have 80 fare inspectors for the entire LIRR system. I am pretty confident that there are more than 80 collectors employed by the LIRR today.

Edited January 22, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[bobtehpanda]

9 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The other thing you and a few others keep yelling about is this idea that the  will spend the savings on more service. Don't be so sure about that. They want to cut costs, not add more service

So, the LIRR has made a few encouraging moves recently (at least pre-pandemic), most notably by slashing zone 3 fares and voting to keep extending the Atlantic Ticket. They seem to have realized, probably too late, that the fares simply cost too much.

The reality is that at current funding and staffing levels, LIRR tickets are simply getting too expensive. When I was out in Long Island I knew plenty of people who did the math and started driving into the city again and paying for parking, because it penciled out better. The MTA cannot keep hiking fares indefinitely.

Unless someone is proposing a way to grow money on trees, labor efficiency is the most apparent solution to the railroads' ticket costs spiraling out of control.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

So, the LIRR has made a few encouraging moves recently (at least pre-pandemic), most notably by slashing zone 3 fares and voting to keep extending the Atlantic Ticket. They seem to have realized, probably too late, that the fares simply cost too much.

The reality is that at current funding and staffing levels, LIRR tickets are simply getting too expensive. When I was out in Long Island I knew plenty of people who did the math and started driving into the city again and paying for parking, because it penciled out better. The MTA cannot keep hiking fares indefinitely.

Unless someone is proposing a way to grow money on trees, labor efficiency is the most apparent solution to the railroads' ticket costs spiraling out of control.

Absolutely. The cost of the fares is something that the  Board discussed back in 2019 even, and the need to perhaps consider capping fares for the cost of some tickets precisely for the reasons you mentioned.

[Mtatransit]

12 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

 Police are more expensive than Conductors. Also, I'm not sure where you're sourcing that 70% number, without publishing internal docs, the farebox hovers around 50% or all modes.  https://www.gothamgazette.com/politics/130-opinion/8182-lirr-s-heavy-subsidies-and-the-coming-debate-over-mta-funding
 

I stand corrected

Metro North covers 60.8% of it's cost 

LIRR covers 53% of its cost

Metro North

LIRR

 

LIRR is less productive than Metro North despite operating similar revenue hrs, similar maximum vehicles, and revenue miles. 

11 hours ago, paulrivera said:

In that case, if we were to go full on POP on MNR/LIRR, hiring more enforcement while trimming down on collectors would be a net loss actually. Trimming down on collectors while not hiring more enforcement would also cause a net loss since more people in city limits ('sup, Fordham and Atlantic?) would try to beat the fare... or maybe even bring "Showtime" and all that nefarious stuff to the commuter railroad.

8 conductors on a 12 car train is too much imho; they should go with a conductor at every other car at the most (2 on a scoot shuttle, 3-4 on most mainline trains, and 6 in a 12 car train).

It's a really delicate balance for the commuter railroads.

It will not be a net loss actually. When I mentioned police I was addressing the Quality of life issues some people mentioned (which I honestly believe it is overblown). 

But majority of the fare enforcement will be done by the eagle team. People could try to beat the fare, but if by luck their train gets inspected, they will receive a summon that I think should equal the highest monthly pass in the system. Plus right now there are close to no ticket collections for intermediate stations.

It would be pointless to replace EVERY conductor with police officers. 

At min we should aim for two crews per train with the eventual possibility of OPTO.

9 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

So, the LIRR has made a few encouraging moves recently (at least pre-pandemic), most notably by slashing zone 3 fares and voting to keep extending the Atlantic Ticket. They seem to have realized, probably too late, that the fares simply cost too much.

The reality is that at current funding and staffing levels, LIRR tickets are simply getting too expensive. When I was out in Long Island I knew plenty of people who did the math and started driving into the city again and paying for parking, because it penciled out better. The MTA cannot keep hiking fares indefinitely.

Unless someone is proposing a way to grow money on trees, labor efficiency is the most apparent solution to the railroads' ticket costs spiraling out of control.

They slashed Zone 3 fares? I never knew that. It is apparently still a rip off. 

I mean the MTA could always keep the status quo and ask for more bailout money.

29 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Absolutely. The cost of the fares is something that the  Board discussed back in 2019 even, and the need to perhaps consider capping fares for the cost of some tickets precisely for the reasons you mentioned.

MTA need to find a new method in increasing the ticket price itself. Percentage based increase may seem fair but it really isn't.

Higher fare service will raise at a higher and faster rate than lower rate ticket.

That is probably why you see a widening gap between tickets to Zone 1 and intermediate fare tickets

Edited January 22, 2021 by Mtatransit

[bobtehpanda]

11 minutes ago, Mtatransit said:

I mean the MTA could always keep the status quo and ask for more bailout money.

This works *now*, but the major issue is that the MTA's costs keep on marching upwards even without a recession and pandemic.

If the economy is fine, the feds are not going to bailout the MTA.

[Mtatransit]

47 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

This works *now*, but the major issue is that the MTA's costs keep on marching upwards even without a recession and pandemic.

If the economy is fine, the feds are not going to bailout the MTA.

MTA's been doing that for the past decade already.

Its always the worst service cuts and fare increase until the next one with no effort to control cost

[Trainmaster5]

This is a hypothetical question for the OPTO proponents of the LIRR  or MNRR. What happens if the engineer becomes incapacitated enroute. Say a heart attack or a vehicle strike on a KO to Penn run at Deer Park or Bethpage ? Since the Conductor is normally in charge whom do you propose to take charge at the scene?  The riders?  Just curious. Carry on. 

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

This is a hypothetical question for the OPTO proponents of the LIRR  or MNRR. What happens if the engineer becomes incapacitated enroute. Say a heart attack or a vehicle strike on a KO to Penn run at Deer Park or Bethpage ? Since the Conductor is normally in charge whom do you propose to take charge at the scene?  The riders?  Just curious. Carry on. 

JFYI, I've been operating in the thread under the assumption that people are calling for 2PTO LIRR/MNR. Which would really be no different from how the subway works.

I mean, with this logic we could get into an endless cycle of "who delivers the mailman's mail", but no one has really given a good argument as to why we need >2 people a train.

[Mtatransit]

To be honest some branches could really just do OPTO. Few examples include Greenport, West Hempstead and Oyster Bay after third track is complete. MAS is slow, and PTC will prevent any accidents if the engineer becomes incapacited enroute.  

But overall I was calling for 2 crew a train. Even if we have that, it would be a vast savings compared to what we have now. 

[Lex]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

JFYI, I've been operating in the thread under the assumption that people are calling for 2PTO LIRR/MNR. Which would really be no different from how the subway works.

I mean, with this logic we could get into an endless cycle of "who delivers the mailman's mail", but no one has really given a good argument as to why we need >2 people a train.

Because it all boils down to tradition and phantom thieves...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

I stand corrected

Metro North covers 60.8% of it's cost 

LIRR covers 53% of its cost

Metro North

LIRR

 

LIRR is less productive than Metro North despite operating similar revenue hrs, similar maximum vehicles, and revenue miles. 

It will not be a net loss actually. When I mentioned police I was addressing the Quality of life issues some people mentioned (which I honestly believe it is overblown). 

But majority of the fare enforcement will be done by the eagle team. People could try to beat the fare, but if by luck their train gets inspected, they will receive a summon that I think should equal the highest monthly pass in the system. Plus right now there are close to no ticket collections for intermediate stations.

It would be pointless to replace EVERY conductor with police officers. 

At min we should aim for two crews per train with the eventual possibility of OPTO.

They slashed Zone 3 fares? I never knew that. It is apparently still a rip off. 

I mean the MTA could always keep the status quo and ask for more bailout money.

MTA need to find a new method in increasing the ticket price itself. Percentage based increase may seem fair but it really isn't.

Higher fare service will raise at a higher and faster rate than lower rate ticket.

That is probably why you see a widening gap between tickets to Zone 1 and intermediate fare tickets

Well one thing they didn't do with Metro-North is raise the intermediate fares last time. Meanwhile, everyone else saw a 4% hike. That makes no sense. 4% of $3.00 is $0.12, round that up to maybe $3.15. Meanwhile, people like myself received a $0.50 increase for my peak ticket, plus an increase for the shuttle bus, so there is definitely some unequal raises going on here. If everyone else pays 4%, why shouldn't intermediate riders? Then they realized that and proposed astronomical increases not too long ago for those riders. Just nuts.

[Trainmaster5]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

JFYI, I've been operating in the thread under the assumption that people are calling for 2PTO LIRR/MNR. Which would really be no different from how the subway works.

I mean, with this logic we could get into an endless cycle of "who delivers the mailman's mail", but no one has really given a good argument as to why we need >2 people a train.

Actually the reason I posted the hypothetical is because I've seen one vehicle strike ( Brentwood) and been on a follower( at Hicksville) where the strike was at Bethpage an hour earlier. In the Hicksville incident it was evening around 11 pm and the Conductor in charge had little onboard help on our E/B train so he asked me to help out because I was in uniform. He was tasked with passenger control, answering questions, all the while coordinating with the higher ups about arranging bus service for the riders on our train and finding out the status of W/B trains on the KO Branch. I helped discharge our train with another Conductor while the man in charge traveled down to street level and dealt with the arrival of the buses. That's the night I was told about the Verizon cellphones being issued. In the Brentwood incident it was broad daylight when the E/B train struck the car a block away from the station as the train was slowing down. I was at a nearby gas station and heard and saw the aftermath. The train pushed the car for over a block before everything became wedged at the station platform at Brentwood Road. From my vantage point I could see the confusion on the train from the passengers who were a good 4 or 5 cars away from the impact. Luckily the paramedics and the Brentwood Fire Department are located a block away so the response was immediate and the MTA PD was onsite within minutes from their Central Islip HQ. As I said my vantage point was only from the north side of the train but I can assure you that there's no way that only two crew members could have handled that scene. I saw at least two conductors trying valiantly to calm the passengers onboard in my line of sight along with the Brentwood EMS. This was before the SCPD and MTA arrived onsite to help those aboard and keep those up to no good a good distance away. Now replace that automobile with a SCT bus or a tanker truck. The Greenport Scoot is one thing but a mainline train accident is a whole 'nother ballgame. IMO putting only two people on a railroad train is a recipe for disaster. With the design of the M3, M7, and M9 equipment a trained employee can only observe 2 cars as is. Just my take. YMMV. Carry on

[paulrivera]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Then they realized that and proposed astronomical increases not too long ago for those riders. Just nuts.

Imagine a railfanner going from Riverdale to Poughkeepsie at just about the same fare as a commuter from Riverdale to Grand Central or a reverse commuter going from Fordham to White Plains like in that flat fare proposal...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 hours ago, paulrivera said:

Imagine a railfanner going from Riverdale to Poughkeepsie at just about the same fare as a commuter from Riverdale to Grand Central or a reverse commuter going from Fordham to White Plains like in that flat fare proposal...

That I don't agree with. Those riders aren't going to areas like Grand Central or 125th, which is what is in demand most, but at the same time, having riders pay over three times the intermediate fare isn't right either. They're going to have to come up with something that makes sense because some of the fares are just too high for public transit, premium service or not. It becomes cheaper to drive in and park.

[40MntVrn]

On 1/22/2021 at 6:48 PM, Lex said:

Because it all boils down to tradition and phantom thieves...

Phantom thieves, wonderfully put.

[Mtatransit]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:29 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well one thing they didn't do with Metro-North is raise the intermediate fares last time. Meanwhile, everyone else saw a 4% hike. That makes no sense. 4% of $3.00 is $0.12, round that up to maybe $3.15. Meanwhile, people like myself received a $0.50 increase for my peak ticket, plus an increase for the shuttle bus, so there is definitely some unequal raises going on here. If everyone else pays 4%, why shouldn't intermediate riders? Then they realized that and proposed astronomical increases not too long ago for those riders. Just nuts.

They probably didn't raise it because it was rounded down. During the next fare increase they will probably increase it. $0.12+0.12= 0.24. Another reason why MTA needs another method of calculating fare increase instead of percentages

To be honest, Metro North intermediate fares are still reasonable. I took advantage of it many times, because I couldn't justify paying double to go into Manhattan. The LIRR on the other hand, going into NYC (even if its in Queens) will be expensive. If LIRR could get its Zone 3 and further fare down to MNR level, NICE bus will lose probably 25% of its ridership

On 1/22/2021 at 9:57 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Actually the reason I posted the hypothetical is because I've seen one vehicle strike ( Brentwood) and been on a follower( at Hicksville) where the strike was at Bethpage an hour earlier. In the Hicksville incident it was evening around 11 pm and the Conductor in charge had little onboard help on our E/B train so he asked me to help out because I was in uniform. He was tasked with passenger control, answering questions, all the while coordinating with the higher ups about arranging bus service for the riders on our train and finding out the status of W/B trains on the KO Branch. I helped discharge our train with another Conductor while the man in charge traveled down to street level and dealt with the arrival of the buses. That's the night I was told about the Verizon cellphones being issued. In the Brentwood incident it was broad daylight when the E/B train struck the car a block away from the station as the train was slowing down. I was at a nearby gas station and heard and saw the aftermath. The train pushed the car for over a block before everything became wedged at the station platform at Brentwood Road. From my vantage point I could see the confusion on the train from the passengers who were a good 4 or 5 cars away from the impact. Luckily the paramedics and the Brentwood Fire Department are located a block away so the response was immediate and the MTA PD was onsite within minutes from their Central Islip HQ. As I said my vantage point was only from the north side of the train but I can assure you that there's no way that only two crew members could have handled that scene. I saw at least two conductors trying valiantly to calm the passengers onboard in my line of sight along with the Brentwood EMS. This was before the SCPD and MTA arrived onsite to help those aboard and keep those up to no good a good distance away. Now replace that automobile with a SCT bus or a tanker truck. The Greenport Scoot is one thing but a mainline train accident is a whole 'nother ballgame. IMO putting only two people on a railroad train is a recipe for disaster. With the design of the M3, M7, and M9 equipment a trained employee can only observe 2 cars as is. Just my take. YMMV. Carry on

There are bilevels out west with only two crews. They have grade crossings as well. I believe we just need two crews. Similar to the subway, if an incident happens, all we need as passengers is clear communication. 

With the savings we could invest in some additional police which can deal with the accident and also make the stations safer from Quality of life issues. 

But again I have no experience in operations, I'm just noting my observations from commuter rail operations in the rest of the country. If a subway with more passenger than the LIRR can evacuate safely, I don't see why not with LIRR and MNR with less passengers.

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That I don't agree with. Those riders aren't going to areas like Grand Central or 125th, which is what is in demand most, but at the same time, having riders pay over three times the intermediate fare isn't right either. They're going to have to come up with something that makes sense because some of the fares are just too high for public transit, premium service or not. It becomes cheaper to drive in and park.

I don't believe the intermediate fare is too low. I believe the fare to Zone 1 is too high! I have been saying that its cheaper to hop on an intercity bus all the way to Boston than take the Metro North to New Haven or the LIRR to Babylon

Edited January 24, 2021 by Mtatransit

[QM1to6Ave]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:57 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Actually the reason I posted the hypothetical is because I've seen one vehicle strike ( Brentwood) and been on a follower( at Hicksville) where the strike was at Bethpage an hour earlier. In the Hicksville incident it was evening around 11 pm and the Conductor in charge had little onboard help on our E/B train so he asked me to help out because I was in uniform. He was tasked with passenger control, answering questions, all the while coordinating with the higher ups about arranging bus service for the riders on our train and finding out the status of W/B trains on the KO Branch. I helped discharge our train with another Conductor while the man in charge traveled down to street level and dealt with the arrival of the buses. That's the night I was told about the Verizon cellphones being issued. In the Brentwood incident it was broad daylight when the E/B train struck the car a block away from the station as the train was slowing down. I was at a nearby gas station and heard and saw the aftermath. The train pushed the car for over a block before everything became wedged at the station platform at Brentwood Road. From my vantage point I could see the confusion on the train from the passengers who were a good 4 or 5 cars away from the impact. Luckily the paramedics and the Brentwood Fire Department are located a block away so the response was immediate and the MTA PD was onsite within minutes from their Central Islip HQ. As I said my vantage point was only from the north side of the train but I can assure you that there's no way that only two crew members could have handled that scene. I saw at least two conductors trying valiantly to calm the passengers onboard in my line of sight along with the Brentwood EMS. This was before the SCPD and MTA arrived onsite to help those aboard and keep those up to no good a good distance away. Now replace that automobile with a SCT bus or a tanker truck. The Greenport Scoot is one thing but a mainline train accident is a whole 'nother ballgame. IMO putting only two people on a railroad train is a recipe for disaster. With the design of the M3, M7, and M9 equipment a trained employee can only observe 2 cars as is. Just my take. YMMV. Carry on

I imagine that from the MTA's viewpoint, these incidents are statistically rare enough that even if some passengers got hurt and blamed it on a lack of crew members, the lawsuit costs are outweighed by the savings of having fewer employees. Perhaps they are also betting on new technology allowing for live monitoring and remote announcements in an emergency from a dispatcher or whatnot. Even in your own example, the crew made due by enlisting your help since you were in uniform. Perhaps the MTA guesses there are enough off-duty TA employees, cops, firefighters, EMTs, etc that you are likely to have one or two on any given train to help out, kind of like how there is often a doctor or nurse on flights when someone has a medical emergency. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

12 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

They probably didn't raise it because it was rounded down. During the next fare increase they will probably increase it. $0.12+0.12= 0.24. Another reason why MTA needs another method of calculating fare increase instead of percentages

To be honest, Metro North intermediate fares are still reasonable. I took advantage of it many times, because I couldn't justify paying double to go into Manhattan. The LIRR on the other hand, going into NYC (even if its in Queens) will be expensive. If LIRR could get its Zone 3 and further fare down to MNR level, NICE bus will lose probably 25% of its ridership

There are bilevels out west with only two crews. They have grade crossings as well. I believe we just need two crews. Similar to the subway, if an incident happens, all we need as passengers is clear communication. 

With the savings we could invest in some additional police which can deal with the accident and also make the stations safer from Quality of life issues. 

But again I have no experience in operations, I'm just noting my observations from commuter rail operations in the rest of the country. If a subway with more passenger than the LIRR can evacuate safely, I don't see why not with LIRR and MNR with less passengers.

I don't believe the intermediate fare is too low. I believe the fare to Zone 1 is too high! I have been saying that its cheaper to hop on an intercity bus all the way to Boston than take the Metro North to New Haven or the LIRR to Babylon

You can go from East 153rd St up to Greystone for $3.00. That's pretty damn good. If you go past that, it only goes up $1.25 more all the way up to Irvington, which is still cheaper than a City Ticket, which is $4.50.

[paulrivera]

13 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

If a subway with more passenger than the LIRR can evacuate safely, I don't see why not with LIRR and MNR with less passengers.

A lot of the electric trains on the LIRR are longer and therefore cover a wider area than a subway train consist. That second or third conductor can be quite useful for an evacuation of a longer train.

13 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

I don't believe the intermediate fare is too low. I believe the fare to Zone 1 is too high! I have been saying that its cheaper to hop on an intercity bus all the way to Boston than take the Metro North to New Haven or the LIRR to Babylon

Amtrak's saver (2-week advance purchase) fares are actually on par with Metro-North's fares along the New Haven Line too.

New Haven Line

NYC to New Rochelle- MNR $8.50, Amtrak $10

NYC to Stamford- MNR $11.50, Amtrak $13

NYC to Bridgeport- MNR $14.75, Amtrak $14

NYC to New Haven- MNR $17.75, Amtrak $18

[Mtatransit]

4 hours ago, paulrivera said:

A lot of the electric trains on the LIRR are longer and therefore cover a wider area than a subway train consist. That second or third conductor can be quite useful for an evacuation of a longer train.

Nothing preventing them from cutting the train cars from 12 to 10 or 8 cars and using the extra conductors on another new train. So instead of one 12 car train, we could have two 8 car trains.

I think MTA uses long trains to prevent running extra service because of the crewing cost, so they add capacity instead.

the subway uses OPTO for 4 car trains, the same should be used for the Greenport Scoot and other low ridership branch. Greenport Branch usually only has one car open anyways