The Rejected Bus Orders of the MTA

[RSMG106]

For this topic, I wanted to check out the reject bus orders from the MTA, and why there were rejected. It may not be all of the rejected orders, but here are the rejected orders so far:

The first order was from 1995, with the Flxible Metro E. The Metro E order would've been numbered 1900-1949 (50), and was to be powered by the Detroit Diesel Series 50 engine, with the Allison VR731RH transmission. Unfortunately, despite being ordered in '95, Flxible went out of business before being built, and closed in 1996. This resulted in the order to be award to Orion for the Orion V, and numbered 631-680. It would've been cool to see the Metro E buses, since the controversial Grumman Flxible 870 order. 

The second order was from 2004, with the New Flyer D60HF. This order would've been numbered 5770-5834 (65), and would've used the same powertrain as the 2002-03 units, and the depots were listed for delivery. The depots were revealed on which units will they receive. 5770-5792 (23) would go to 100th Street (OH), 5793-5827 (35) going to Casey Stengel (CS), which would've been the first Queens depot to receive articulated buses, and 5828-5834 (7), going to MJQ. However, the model was discontinued prior to being built. This didn't make sense, since that Metro Transit of Minnesota-St. Paul, received the last batch of D60HFs ever built in 2006. But like the Metro E order, it would've been cool to see these units in service, especially in Queens.

The third order was from 2006, but this time was from the then MTA Long Island Bus division. This order was the famous Orion V CNGs. This order would've been numbered 463-512 (50). The powertrain was interesting, since that the Allison B400R5 G4 transmission was the primary for this order, and the other Orion V CNGs, were mostly Allisons, the engine was different. It would've been powered by the John Deere/Powertech 6081H engine. This order was a possible order from the batch of 2004 Orion Vs, but was dropped, presumably for the Orion VII Next Gen. If this would've been order, then it would be the first time that the MTA ordered a different CNG engine, not from Detroit Diesel.

The fourth and fifth order are from 2012-13, and are from MTS. The MTA would've received the RTS Extreme, and the RTS Express, with the Cummins ISL9 engine, and the Allison B400R6 G4 or G5 transmission respectively. The Extreme order would've been numbered 4700-4789, and the Express order would've been numbered 2500-2589. However, both orders were not delivered for unknown reasons. In my opinion, it would've very amazing to see the RTS return to glory in New York City.

The last order was from 2012-13, but for MTA Bus. The Orion VII 3G CNG order would've been numbered 570-643 (74), with an option of 30 buses, making a total of 104 buses. It would've been the same as NICE's Orion VII 3G order. Sadly, only two were built, and were sent to CENTRO, under 1271-1272. And also, Orion closed, resulting in the contract to be moved to New Flyer for the last order of C40LFs. However, It would've been interesting to see the Orion VII 3G CNGs in Queens, but it's better late then ever. 

Those are so far the rejected orders from MTA Bus, and New York City Transit. It may not be all of the rejected orders, but if I'm missing something, or some facts about the rejected orders, let me know.

[Orion6025]

It’s a shame that all of these cancelled orders would have been *far* more interested to ride, see, and fan than the orders that took their place.

that’s just me though...

[MHV9218]

That MTS order was unfortunately quite a bit away from happening. MTS didn't have the infrastructure to produce the number of test buses the MTA needed without confirmation of an order, since only large-scale companies can afford to produce units without a confirmed buyer. I think that was halted pretty early on once that was an issue.

My understanding back in 2012 or so was that the MTA came damn close to locking in an order for 90 Designlines. I remind ENY and I were talking about that at the time, both hearing the same thing from different places in the system. I never figured out why exactly that got canceled, since my impression was that there was decent progress on the order. Ancient history now though, I guess. 

[aemoreira81]

The Metro E order would have been likely a candidate for early scrapping as an orphan order, ahead of any Orion buses.

As for that D60HF order...that left bad blood with the MTA for a good while as the line was still closed while the MTA still had options for the model. The MTA jumped on LFS artics once the model became available, and some will come up for replacement within the next few years.

As for DesignLine, that could have also seen an early retirement as well because of the financial troubles of the company. New Jersey Transit briefly operated some DesignLine buses but early-retired them.

The O7 3G CNG order was also moved to New Flyer as part of the orderly closure of Orion.

[MCI D4000 81994]

Wasn't some of the MCIs >2250 rejected? They were sold to NJT?

[RSMG106]

11 minutes ago, MCI D4000 81994 said:

Wasn't some of the MCIs >2250 rejected? They were sold to NJT?

Well, there were supposed to order 126 D4500CTs from 2008, but they reduced it 59, but due to insufficient funds, they send 18 to NJT, leaving only 41 units on order at the time.

[Cait Sith]

3 minutes ago, RSMG106 said:

Well, there were supposed to order 126 D4500CTs from 2008, but they reduced it 59, but due to insufficient funds, they send 18 to NJT, leaving only 41 units on order at the time.

It's the exhaust spec in that order that caused problems, not due to insufficient funds. The exhaust got hot enough to a point where it can put any human being on fire. They ended up selling those to NJT to cut their losses on the modifications of the order.

[RSMG106]

5 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

It's the exhaust spec in that order that caused problems, not due to insufficient funds. The exhaust got hot enough to a point where it can put any human being on fire. They ended up selling those to NJT to cut their losses on the modifications of the order.

Oh. It makes me wonder on why the MTA chosen this exhaust spec, over the D4500CLs. What the MTA should've done, was to keep the same spec as the CLs, that way they can have 126 coaches. But nope, they chosen a spec that can cause a potential safety hazard.

[Cait Sith]

2 minutes ago, RSMG106 said:

Oh. It makes me wonder on why the MTA chosen this exhaust spec, over the D4500CLs. What the MTA should've done, was to keep the same spec as the CLs, that way they can have 126 coaches. But nope, they chosen a spec that can cause a potential safety hazard.

The rear setup was changed in 2006, with it being completely implemented in 2008, the exhaust setup was also changed but it had to get changed again in the current 2008s we have.

It was funny how NJ Transit got theirs in service much more faster than MTA.....and at the same time, two went up in flames.

[Lawrence St]

On 12/21/2019 at 9:20 AM, aemoreira81 said:

The Metro E order would have been likely a candidate for early scrapping as an orphan order, ahead of any Orion buses.

As for that D60HF order...that left bad blood with the MTA for a good while as the line was still closed while the MTA still had options for the model. The MTA jumped on LFS artics once the model became available, and some will come up for replacement within the next few years.

As for DesignLine, that could have also seen an early retirement as well because of the financial troubles of the company. New Jersey Transit briefly operated some DesignLine buses but early-retired them.

The O7 3G CNG order was also moved to New Flyer as part of the orderly closure of Orion.

If they still had the option, then New Flyer should have still honored the order didnt they? 

[Cait Sith]

On 12/23/2019 at 10:55 AM, Lawrence St said:

If they still had the option, then New Flyer should have still honored the order didnt they? 

What happened with the New Flyer deal was that New Flyer basically lied to the MTA saying that they weren't making high-floor models anymore and wanted to push the LF model instead. The MTA didn't want that model and insisted on the HF model.

What caused the bad blood was that the MTA found out that NF was still making the HF model for Metro Transit in Minneapolis.

[Lawrence St]

10 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

What happened with the New Flyer deal was that New Flyer basically lied to the MTA saying that they weren't making high-floor models anymore and wanted to push the LF model instead. The MTA didn't want that model and insisted on the HF model.

What caused the bad blood was that the MTA found out that NF was still making the HF model for Metro Transit in Minneapolis.

Wow, that's messed up. I'm surprised they stuck with New Flyer after what they did.