Is the MTA correctly performing its bus network redesigns?

[BrooklynBus]

https://www.gothamgazette.com/opinion/8989-is-the-mta-correctly-performing-its-bus-network-redesigns

[checkmatechamp13]

@BrooklynBus Here is my take about the Staten Island portion: At this point in time, span reduction is not an issue and neither is overcrowding (or at least any moreso than it was under the old system. The MTA says it sees a slight decrease in the number of trips with overcrowding...I could believe that...there's definitely more trips available in this system overall).

Those were definitely major issues when the system first launched, but not at this point. The main issues that remain are the structure of off-peak service (which is better than the previous structure because we have one more route, but every single route still does the Downtown/Midtown combo and coverage on the Staten Island end is still lacking) as well as the peak structure on Hylan Blvd. Both of those go against the original goal of the redesign which was to provide a bunch of short, reliable routes instead of concentrating them into fewer, longer unreliable ones.

[B35 via Church]

No, they're not correctly performing these network redesigns, because the premise/foundation they're basing them on, are faulty.... The aim & end goal isn't to actually improve the customer/commuter experience, it's to trim a budget... Anyone else can say what they will, but AFAIC, that whole frequency vs. coverage BS (as if the MTA is running that dam thin on equipment & bus operators) is a convenient facade for them to justify scaling back on resources.....

[BrooklynBus]

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

No, they're not correctly performing these network redesigns, because the premise/foundation they're basing them on, are faulty.... The aim & end goal isn't to actually improve the customer/commuter experience, it's to trim a budget... Anyone else can say what they will, but AFAIC, that whole frequency vs. coverage BS (as if the MTA is running that dam thin on equipment & bus operators) is a convenient facade for them to justify scaling back on resources.....

Which is exactly what I stated in my article. So the question really is how do we make everyone understand this and not let the MTA get away with pulling the wool over everyone’s eyes. They have no criteria to measure success. They just pull together a few meaningless statistics to show some minor improvements and declare success. Most of the reporters just repeat the same BS the MTA is telling them. I hear that in Queens many trips will require additional changes not fewer changes with no mention of three legged transfers. I wish I knew more how social media works because that is the only way you can organize people to stop their nonsense. 

[Trainmaster5]

On 12/20/2019 at 1:36 AM, B35 via Church said:

No, they're not correctly performing these network redesigns, because the premise/foundation they're basing them on, are faulty.... The aim & end goal isn't to actually improve the customer/commuter experience, it's to trim a budget... Anyone else can say what they will, but AFAIC, that whole frequency vs. coverage BS (as if the MTA is running that dam thin on equipment & bus operators) is a convenient facade for them to justify scaling back on resources.....

Believe it or not I was told some variation of this almost 20 years ago. The tactic was called “blind ‘em with BS” and although it primarily concerned the subway it extended to the Surface department too. Based on a reduction in headcount with the gradual elimination of runs mainly through attrition because of payroll and pension increases. Less bodies equals money saved today ( payroll) and in the future as a pension cost. That’s one of the reasons many of us were against the widespread introduction of SBS and articulated buses in the first place. That and the  desire for part timers. It’s like the introduction of OPTO in the subway where the  could pay a T/O $1.00 more an hour while eliminating the C/R pay completely. Increase the running time of some subway runs and you can run less trains and reduce payroll while the general public and the press don’t realize what happened. Eliminate the jobs in Surface and RTO that pay in excess of 9+ hours and the oldtimers will retire and that means money saved for the agency with little or no service increases. You, BrooklynBus, and a few others can see through the game but the general public doesn’t have a clue. That’s my take. Carry on.

[SoSpectacular]

On 1/2/2020 at 1:43 AM, Trainmaster5 said:

Believe it or not I was told some variation of this almost 20 years ago. The tactic was called “blind ‘em with BS” and although it primarily concerned the subway it extended to the Surface department too. Based on a reduction in headcount with the gradual elimination of runs mainly through attrition because of payroll and pension increases. Less bodies equals money saved today ( payroll) and in the future as a pension cost. That’s one of the reasons many of us were against the widespread introduction of SBS and articulated buses in the first place. That and the  desire for part timers. It’s like the introduction of OPTO in the subway where the  could pay a T/O $1.00 more an hour while eliminating the C/R pay completely. Increase the running time of some subway runs and you can run less trains and reduce payroll while the general public and the press don’t realize what happened. Eliminate the jobs in Surface and RTO that pay in excess of 9+ hours and the oldtimers will retire and that means money saved for the agency with little or no service increases. You, BrooklynBus, and a few others can see through the game but the general public doesn’t have a clue. That’s my take. Carry on.

If you ask me, they're trimming the fat in all the wrong places...

[Future ENY OP]

On 12/20/2019 at 1:36 AM, B35 via Church said:

No, they're not correctly performing these network redesigns, because the premise/foundation they're basing them on, are faulty.... The aim & end goal isn't to actually improve the customer/commuter experience, it's to trim a budget... Anyone else can say what they will, but AFAIC, that whole frequency vs. coverage BS (as if the MTA is running that dam thin on equipment & bus operators) is a convenient facade for them to justify scaling back on resources.....

.... and the way they are the Queens re-design right now is pretty atrocious to me if you ask. I’ve read from others that Astoria-LIC-Sunnyside-Woodside and Elmhurst were well covered. They just basically said F*ck Flushing, Jamaica, Northeast and Southeast Queens. 
 

Let me know if I’m missing anything else. I’m a bit late to this party. 

[RailRunRob]

And im just asking what do we think the fix is this a Albany thing?  More funding in so the MTA doesn't need penny pinch as much? Who sets the budget? Just wondering?

[BrooklynBus]

25 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

And im just asking what do we think the fix is this a Albany thing?  More funding in so the MTA doesn't need penny pinch as much? Who sets the budget? Just wondering?

All they have to do is allocate sone of the funding from congestion pricing toward operating new services other than SBS and unnecessary expensive bus lanes that minimally help bus passengers while increasing traffic congestion. 

[RailRunRob]

9 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

All they have to do is allocate sone of the funding from congestion pricing toward operating new services other than SBS and unnecessary expensive bus lanes that minimally help bus passengers while increasing traffic congestion. 

Indeed with that said. Should there be a major push for Public leaders to go above the MTA to the actual boss? If the MTA is crying broke Let's get a few extra dollars into their hands with No excuses now to get it done correctly.

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Indeed with that said. Should there be a major push for Public leaders to go above the MTA to the actual boss? If the MTA is crying broke Let's get a few extra dollars into their hands with No excuses now to get it done correctly.

You can’t just blindly give the MTA money because they will just squander it. Either use it to plug the deficit or give raises to middle management. It has to be earmarked for specific purposes like new or greatly changed bus routes with added service. One way they can definitely improve efficiency is through better scheduling so that buses don’t operate halfway across the borough not in revenue service. Their idea of improving efficiency is to cut service spans where there is light ridership, but many nighttime riders depend on that service to get to work. They mistakenly believe operating buses not in service is more efficient than when carrying passengers because it costs less. Totally lost sight that their mission is to transport riders. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Indeed with that said. Should there be a major push for Public leaders to go above the MTA to the actual boss? If the MTA is crying broke Let's get a few extra dollars into their hands with No excuses now to get it done correctly.

Please. They're getting 52.5 BILLION for their capital plan, plus BILLIONS from congestion pricing, plus $50 million that's earmarked for improving transit in transit deserts.  

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

.... and the way they are the Queens re-design right now is pretty atrocious to me if you ask. I’ve read from others that Astoria-LIC-Sunnyside-Woodside and Elmhurst were well covered. They just basically said F*ck Flushing, Jamaica, Northeast and Southeast Queens. 
 

Let me know if I’m missing anything else. I’m a bit late to this party. 

Queens' bus network didn't have to be blown up & redrawn, that's the thing.... No matter what you do to the bus system, the fact still remains that too significant a portion of the entire borough lacks rail coverage.... And on top of it, you're suggesting inadequate (IMO) service levels for a lot of these routes that you are proposing.... You're practically nerfing express bus service.... The whole thing's a f***in slap in the face....

My thing is, individual routes should haven been addressed & not the entire network..... Instead, it's easier to start a new network from scratch than it is to try to hone the current network by fixing whatever service gaps there are, integrating whatever new concepts you want to implement (like this rapid service bit) within it, addressing latent demand to/from new points of interest, things like that.... There's long been a failure by the MTA to get that grasp & that attempt to adequately meet the transit needs of people within each community (generally speaking of course)....

This new network to me is indicative of one big "f*** it - let's throw shit & snack packs on the wall & see how much of it sticks".

[RailRunRob]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

ou can’t just blindly give the MTA money because they will just squander it. Either use it to plug the deficit or give raises to middle management. It has to be earmarked for specific purposes like new or greatly changed bus routes with added service. One way they can definitely improve efficiency is through better scheduling so that buses don’t operate halfway across the borough not in revenue service. Their idea of improving efficiency is to cut service spans where there is light ridership, but many nighttime riders depend on that service to get to work. They mistakenly believe operating buses not in service is more efficient than when carrying passengers because it costs less. Totally lost sight that their mission is to transport riders. 

How do you feel about re-organization do you think that’s a move in the right direction?

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Please. They're getting 52.5 BILLION for their capital plan, plus BILLIONS from congestion pricing, plus $50 million that's earmarked for improving transit in transit deserts.  

$52.5B for the MTA or NYCT? How much of that is  earmarked for the Bus Network? Is there something I can take a look at?  Is this broken down in like monthly a report?

Edited January 3, 2020 by RailRunRob

[MysteriousBtrain]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Queens' bus network didn't have to be blown up & redrawn, that's the thing

I kinda have to partially counter that argument a bit because in Jamaica TOO MANY ROUTES duplicate each other. Not saying the entire network needed an overhaul but there are some routes that could operate as non-stop along certain sections.

I'm just curious as to how they gonna cut the already not Sunday operated BM routes and the X27/28/37/38 because we all already know that's gonna be cut in some shape or form given the wonderful results with the SIMs and QMs.

[BrooklynBus]

53 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

How do you feel about re-organization do you think that’s a move in the right direction?

What do you mean by reorganization? If you mean city takeover, the city  was no more responsive than the MTA. 

[RailRunRob]

11 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

What do you mean by reorganization? If you mean city takeover, the city  was no more responsive than the MTA. 

Isn’t  the MTA in the process of restructuring the entire organization?

[N6 Limited]

19 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I kinda have to partially counter that argument a bit because in Jamaica TOO MANY ROUTES duplicate each other. Not saying the entire network needed an overhaul but there are some routes that could operate as non-stop along certain sections.

The non-stop portions of the new routes make them more attractive, this is why some riders try to use the N4, N6, N20G, N22, N24 and hop off at major boarding stops.

[BrooklynBus]

35 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Isn’t  the MTA in the process of restructuring the entire organization?

I doubt it. There was that whole MTA Reinvention Committee thing, but I am unaware of anything coming of it except a lot of publicity from Cuomo that everything with the MTA will be fixed. I think the only thing they are working on is centralizing administrative functions that are now duplicated by the LIRR and Metro-North. They also may combine some more functions between NYCT Bus and MTA BusCo like Operations Planning. But as far as a total reorganization, I don’t believe so. They still haven’t combined MTA Bus and NYCT depots for more efficient operation after 16 years. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

$52.5B for the MTA or NYCT? How much of that is  earmarked for the Bus Network? Is there something I can take a look at?  Is this broken down in like monthly a report?

This is what was proposed....

 http://www.mta.info/press-release/mta-headquarters/mta-releases-proposed-2020-2024-capital-plan-directing-historic-level

Things like new buses, train cars, etc. for starters.  In any event, they'll have an ongoing revenue source via congestion pricing in addition to other revenue sources, not to mention they'll be asking for another fare hike next year since they are mandated still by law to increase the fare every two years. With the amount of cash coming in at this point, it's time for them to start making due with what they have. Their capital costs are out of control, as is their operational budget.

 

 

 

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I kinda have to partially counter that argument a bit because in Jamaica TOO MANY ROUTES duplicate each other. Not saying the entire network needed an overhaul but there are some routes that could operate as non-stop along certain sections.

Telling me that too many routes duplicate each other in Jamaica, doesn't remotely compare with redrawing the entire network (which was my point).... You're not countering that argument at all....

Anyway, all I think was needed in Jamaica was some restructuring of some routes.... I would argue that they're complicating the network in Jamaica, but that's neither here nor there....

[checkmatechamp13]

5 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I kinda have to partially counter that argument a bit because in Jamaica TOO MANY ROUTES duplicate each other. Not saying the entire network needed an overhaul but there are some routes that could operate as non-stop along certain sections.

I'm just curious as to how they gonna cut the already not Sunday operated BM routes and the X27/28/37/38 because we all already know that's gonna be cut in some shape or form given the wonderful results with the SIMs and QMs.

The SIMs didn't see cuts. There are way more trips under this new system than there were under the old system. We had to fight to get those improvements, and there are still plenty of issues but overall the system is better than before the redesign. I say this as a daily SIM4/8 rider.

The consensus among the planners seems to be that Staten Island definitely needs its express buses...the other boroughs...not so much...

[RailRunRob]

15 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

This is what was proposed....

 http://www.mta.info/press-release/mta-headquarters/mta-releases-proposed-2020-2024-capital-plan-directing-historic-level

Things like new buses, train cars, etc. for starters.  In any event, they'll have an ongoing revenue source via congestion pricing in addition to other revenue sources, not to mention they'll be asking for another fare hike next year since they are mandated still by law to increase the fare every two years. With the amount of cash coming in at this point, it's time for them to start making due with what they have. Their capital costs are out of control, as is their operational budget.

 

 

 

Gotcha I see so about $7Bn ear marked for Buses. Was this funding approved it seems like it's pending? There capital cost's definitely out-of-control I agree but also seems like a lot of their budget goes to Payroll,Pensions and health as well more then non labor looking at this chart. looking to see if I can find something more updated.

[RailRunRob]

Here's the updated budget. So there saying $16.3B in and $16.6 out. Not saying there not padding some other books somewhere else.  But just using this as the guide I take it the extra funding would come in Fiscal 2021 or 22 correct? @Via Garibaldi 8

Edited January 4, 2020 by RailRunRob