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Select Bus Service Discussion Thread


Union Tpke

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It was on Nov 12, 1978 when the B50 started and it ran on Avenue K for about three weeks or three months, I am not sure. The residents of Avenue K protested and with the help of elected officials got it removed. I think it should have stayed on Avenue K. The difference this time is that DOT and the MTA won't listen if the residents protest this time.

MTA tried again in the 90s. The B50 was put back on Flatlands Avenue shortly thereafter.....

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Let's clear up some thing and add a bit of new news. The last of the XD60's are supposed to go to Grand, then Quill, then East New York. They already have Select Bus wraps underneath the standard colors in preparation. EN was a decision for the B82SBS which has been pushed back, and 4700's Are then scheduled go to EN after the 6100's for the B15. However, all of this is subject to change and I also have word that MTA is quietly evaluating the B15 for SBS as well.

 

Yes 6063 is now at Grand for maintenance training.

I don't know how to feel about a B15 +SBS+ to JFK given how the current service pattern is being operated... :unsure: and then to read that they (The MTA) has been quietly evaluating the B15 for SBS is just paradoxical to me... <_<  But I guess If LaGuardia has two SBS routes (M60 & Q70), JFK can have at least one SBS route in form of the B15...lol

Edited by B102 LTD
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Is New Lots the major bottleneck on the B15 route? Besides the stops and spacing? 

The B15 is a long, drawn out route that sees passenger activity at every to every-other stop..... Although New Lots only allows for one moving lane of traffic in each direction, I don't really see it as an issue of bottlenecking, per se.....

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The B15 is a long, drawn out route that sees passenger activity at every to every-other stop..... Although New Lots only allows for one moving lane of traffic in each direction, I don't really see it as an issue of bottlenecking, per se.....

If there is an east west SBS route to JFK, it should be on Linden, not New Lots. SBS was originally only on wide streets so it could be fast. Now every slow street qualifies for SBS. Just ridiculous. Just a way to make people walk further to and from bus stops and have fewer stops while costing more to operate.

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The B15 is a long, drawn out route that sees passenger activity at every to every-other stop..... Although New Lots only allows for one moving lane of traffic in each direction, I don't really see it as an issue of bottlenecking, per se.....

Gotcha. I've used the B15 twice from New Lots (3) station to JFK AirTrain wasn't that bad honestly. Never rode west of that point why I asked.

 

 

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If there is an east west SBS route to JFK, it should be on Linden, not New Lots. SBS was originally only on wide streets so it could be fast. Now every slow street qualifies for SBS. Just ridiculous. Just a way to make people walk further to and from bus stops and have fewer stops while costing more to operate.

I'd take it they'd still have local service correct? I noticed some buses short turn at Spring Creek with B14? Local service would end there? Is most of the ridership concentrated to JFK? I don't really know the ridership pattern of the line.

 

 

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Gotcha. I've used the B15 twice from New Lots (3) station to JFK AirTrain wasn't that bad honestly. Never rode west of that point why I asked.

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app I'd take it they'd still have local service correct? I noticed some buses short turn at Spring Creek with B14? Local service would end there? Is most of the ridership concentrated to JFK? I don't really know the ridership pattern of the line.

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Yes, I'd keep the local on Hegeman and run Limited or SBS on Linden.

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If there is an east west SBS route to JFK, it should be on Linden, not New Lots. SBS was originally only on wide streets so it could be fast. Now every slow street qualifies for SBS. Just ridiculous. Just a way to make people walk further to and from bus stops and have fewer stops while costing more to operate.

That's just the thing.... SBS is meant to have different purposes in different areas. The number one purpose that people seem to forget is off-board payment, which speeds things up no matter what the traffic patterns or street conditions are. In technical terms, every limited bus in the system qualifies for SBS. We can't avoid some of our streets with as many routes as we have. The next largest transit system is still almost half the size of MTA. And no other city in this hemisphere is more dense. So at some point possibly by 2024, any street with limited service may just have to be good enough.

 

What about the Q46 getting SBS, this is a very heavily used bus route that could sure use SBS to replace the Limited Stop service.

The Q46 is heavy and I have heard that it was under evaluation as well. However the B15 sees more passengers and still doesn't even have a Limited... But who knows... When the first SBS route (Bx12) was created for test an evaluation the B46 was #1 and the M15 was #2.

 

For as long and as frequent the B15 is, along with how crowded that line gets, I'm still shocked that there's no Limited variant on the line. That line needs something. It has too many stops and its long as hell.

Right! That being said, there is a 90% chance that any and all new "limited service" will likely be introduced as SBS in the future. We could also see routes converted to SBS that have all the same stops of existing limited service just to speed things up with off-road payment. Edited by East New York
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That's just the thing.... SBS is meant to have different purposes in different areas. The number one purpose that people seem to forget is off-board payment, which speeds things up no matter what the traffic patterns or street conditions are. In technical terms, every limited bus in the system qualifies for SBS. We can't avoid some of our streets with as many routes as we have. The next largest transit system is still almost half the size of MTA. And no other city in this hemisphere is more dense. So at some point possibly by 2024, any street with limited service may just have to be good enough..

Show me the proof that off-board fare payment saves so much time that it is worth the extra cost. The M86 which only has off-Board payment saves an average of only two minutes from river to river. If the average trip is halfway across Manhattan, that is a savings of one minute for the average passenger. That does take into account the numbers of passengers who miss a bus getting their receipt and lose ten minutes on their trip. That has to be factored in even if it only one in ten or twenty passengers who experience that. If the average trip time is 30 minutes, a savings of one minute hardly seems worth it considering it costs at least $1 million more per year to operate an SBS route than a Limited route.

 

Also, where do you get the idea that every Limited bus should qualify for SBS. It was supposed to be for routes where a significant amount of time could be saved, not to replace all Limited service. In fact, originally when SBS was first proposed in 2003, it was supposed to supplement Limited service, not replace it.

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The B15 is a long, drawn out route that sees passenger activity at every to every-other stop..... Although New Lots only allows for one moving lane of traffic in each direction, I don't really see it as an issue of bottlenecking, per se.....

.... stolen idea ????. Hence, the Brooklyn Bus Thread.

Now the (MTA) quietly planning the B15 SBS. Really, that needs a new route if you ask me.

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Show me the proof that off-board fare payment saves so much time that it is worth the extra cost. The M86 which only has off-Board payment saves an average of only two minutes from river to river. If the average trip is halfway across Manhattan, that is a savings of one minute for the average passenger. That does take into account the numbers of passengers who miss a bus getting their receipt and lose ten minutes on their trip. That has to be factored in even if it only one in ten or twenty passengers who experience that. If the average trip time is 30 minutes, a savings of one minute hardly seems worth it considering it costs at least $1 million more per year to operate an SBS route than a Limited route.

Also, where do you get the idea that every Limited bus should qualify for SBS. It was supposed to be for routes where a significant amount of time could be saved, not to replace all Limited service. In fact, originally when SBS was first proposed in 2003, it was supposed to supplement Limited service, not replace it.

Don't shoot me I'm just the messenger and a person that try to make things better on all sides. The proof is in the numbers and the personal surves that I have conducted myself. On average dwell times are down about 30% on SBS routes. And I never said that every Limites qualified... Please quote me correctly because that's how rumors get started. Let me clarify, for every high capacity limited an SBS argument can be made. MTA wants to implement it on more routes. I'm just posting what comes across my desk. You don't have to like it and I don't either, but it is what it is and at the end of the day DOB at ENY makes the final decisions.

 

Now if you want me to show you proof, I can pull the stats. It just won't be tonight.

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Show me the proof that off-board fare payment saves so much time that it is worth the extra cost. The M86 which only has off-Board payment saves an average of only two minutes from river to river. If the average trip is halfway across Manhattan, that is a savings of one minute for the average passenger. That does take into account the numbers of passengers who miss a bus getting their receipt and lose ten minutes on their trip. That has to be factored in even if it only one in ten or twenty passengers who experience that. If the average trip time is 30 minutes, a savings of one minute hardly seems worth it considering it costs at least $1 million more per year to operate an SBS route than a Limited route.

 

Also, where do you get the idea that every Limited bus should qualify for SBS. It was supposed to be for routes where a significant amount of time could be saved, not to replace all Limited service. In fact, originally when SBS was first proposed in 2003, it was supposed to supplement Limited service, not replace it.

The M86 is short a route to begin with seems logical the longer the routes the more those seconds add up. Crosstown Manhattan routes your not really skipping any stops id take them completely out of the equation. Now what's the time savings on the BX12,Q44,S79,B46 or Bx41 those seem more a comparison to a route like the B15. Let's compare apples to apples atleast.

 

 

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To add to what you are saying, the M86 for example saves 4 minutes alone between 5th and 7th avenues. I'm not even factoring in the other routes. It's at least 9 to 11 minutes faster depending on the time of day.

Indeed 22 mins for a round trip that adds up. Especially with weekly route routines. Is that not worth the investment? I guess my next question to BrooklynBus what's are metrics your looking for that would make SBS or off-board fare payment worthwhile?

 

 

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The M86 is short a route to begin with seems logical the longer the routes the more those seconds add up. Crosstown Manhattan routes your not really skipping any stops id take them completely out of the equation. Now what's the time savings on the BX12,Q44,S79,B46 or Bx41 those seem more a comparison to a route like the B15. Let's compare apples to apples atleast.

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First of all I was only talking about the M86, so let's not divert the discussion to other SBS routes right now. The reason I focused on the M86 is because we were talking about the advantages of off-Board fare payment only and that route has three SBS features, off-board fare payment. articulated buses and and queue jump lanes. No exclusive bus lane.

 

 

To add to what you are saying, the M86 for example saves 4 minutes alone between 5th and 7th avenues. I'm not even factoring in the other routes. It's at least 9 to 11 minutes faster depending on the time of day.

I don't know where you are getting your statistics from.

 

Indeed 22 mins for a round trip that adds up. Especially with weekly route routines. Is that not worth the investment? I guess my next question to BrooklynBus what's are metrics your looking for that would make SBS or off-board fare payment worthwhile?

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I am getting my metrics from the 86 Street Progress Report which shows an average one way trip savings of about 2 minutes which includes time savings from the queue jump lane as well as off-Board fare payment. Slightly more in one direction and slightly less in the other. And as I said that means an average time savings for the average passenger of less than one minute because no one rides from river to river. So the time-savings from just the off-board fare payment is even less than one minute which is NEGLIGIBLE, especially when you consider it costs more to operate an SBS route.

 

Don't shoot me I'm just the messenger and a person that try to make things better on all sides. The proof is in the numbers and the personal surves that I have conducted myself. On average dwell times are down about 30% on SBS routes. And I never said that every Limites qualified... Please quote me correctly because that's how rumors get started. Let me clarify, for every high capacity limited an SBS argument can be made. MTA wants to implement it on more routes. I'm just posting what comes across my desk. You don't have to like it and I don't either, but it is what it is and at the end of the day DOB at ENY makes the final decisions.

Now if you want me to show you proof, I can pull the stats. It just won't be tonight.

I know nothing about personal surveys you conducted or the methodology used or the hours you surveyed. I would assume the MTA numbers are more reliable.

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The M86 is short a route to begin with seems logical the longer the routes the more those seconds add up. Crosstown Manhattan routes your not really skipping any stops id take them completely out of the equation. Now what's the time savings on the BX12,Q44,S79,B46 or Bx41 those seem more a comparison to a route like the B15. Let's compare apples to apples atleast.

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First of all I was only talking about the M86, so let's not divert the discussion to other SBS routes right now. The reason I focused on the M86 is because we were talking about the advantages of off-Board fare payment only and that route has three SBS features, off-board fare payment. articulated buses and and queue jump lanes. No exclusive bus lane.

 

 

To add to what you are saying, the M86 for example saves 4 minutes alone between 5th and 7th avenues. I'm not even factoring in the other routes. It's at least 9 to 11 minutes faster depending on the time of day.

I don't know where you are getting your statistics from.

 

Indeed 22 mins for a round trip that adds up. Especially with weekly route routines. Is that not worth the investment? I guess my next question to BrooklynBus what's are metrics your looking for that would make SBS or off-board fare payment worthwhile?

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I am getting my metrics from the 86 Street Progress Report which shows an average one way trip savings of about 2 minutes which includes time savings from the queue jump lane as well as off-Board fare payment. Slightly more in one direction and slightly less in the other. And as I said that means an average time savings for the average passenger of less than one minute because no one rides from river to river. So the time-savings from just the off-board fare payment is even less than one minute which is NEGLIGIBLE, especially when you consider it costs more to operate an SBS route.

 

Don't shoot me I'm just the messenger and a person that try to make things better on all sides. The proof is in the numbers and the personal surves that I have conducted myself. On average dwell times are down about 30% on SBS routes. And I never said that every Limites qualified... Please quote me correctly because that's how rumors get started. Let me clarify, for every high capacity limited an SBS argument can be made. MTA wants to implement it on more routes. I'm just posting what comes across my desk. You don't have to like it and I don't either, but it is what it is and at the end of the day DOB at ENY makes the final decisions.

Now if you want me to show you proof, I can pull the stats. It just won't be tonight.

I know nothing about personal surveys you conducted or the methodology used or the hours you surveyed. I would assume the MTA numbers are more reliable.

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First of all I was only talking about the M86, so let's not divert the discussion to other SBS routes right now. The reason I focused on the M86 is because we were talking about the advantages of off-Board fare payment only and that route has three SBS features, off-board fare payment. articulated buses and and queue jump lanes. No exclusive bus lane.

 

I don't know where you are getting your statistics from.

 

I am getting my metrics from the 86 Street Progress Report which shows an average one way trip savings of about 2 minutes which includes time savings from the queue jump lane as well as off-Board fare payment. Slightly more in one direction and slightly less in the other. And as I said that means an average time savings for the average passenger of less than one minute because no one rides from river to river. So the time-savings from just the off-board fare payment is even less than one minute which is NEGLIGIBLE, especially when you consider it costs more to operate an SBS route.

 

I know nothing about personal surveys you conducted or the methodology used or the hours you surveyed. I would assume the MTA numbers are more reliable.

I know this peeves you, but the M86SBS is much better with SBS. It just is. You keep harping on the time saved but it's about more than that. Off board payment speeds up buses getting in and out of the stops. Do you seriously think we should go back to having 30+ people dip their Metrocards at various stops? Don't be ridiculous. What else is the SBS supposed to get to make it faster? I mean it's not a subway and never will be. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing you could add is dedicated bus lanes and more signal priority. Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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I know this peeves you, but the M86SBS is much better with SBS. It just is. You keep harping on the time saved but it's about more than that. Off board payment speeds up buses getting in and out of the stops. Do you seriously think we should go back to having 30+ people dip their Metrocards at various stops? Don't be ridiculous. What else is the SBS supposed to get to make it faster? I mean it's not a subway and never will be. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing you could add is dedicated bus lanes and more signal priority.

So the question remains if off Board fare payment SPEEDS UP SERVICE SO MUCH, why is only TWO minutes saved per trip river to river?

PLEASE ANSWER THAT!

 

I repeat the average passenger saves only ONE minute, while some passengers LOSE TEN minutes.

 

AND YOU STILL INSIST IT IS A GREAT IDEA!

 

Are the MTA numbers wrong?

 

And dedicated lanes would screw up east west traffic for cars which of course doesn't concern you in the least, and signal priority would screw up north south traffic.

Edited by BrooklynBus
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So the

 

So the question remains if off Board fare payment SPEEDS UP SERVICE SO MUCH, why is only TWO minutes saved per trip river to river?

PLEASE ANSWER THAT!

I repeat the average passenger saves only ONE minute, while some passengers LOSE TEN minutes.

AND YOU STILL INSIST IT IS A GREAT IDEA!

Are the MTA numbers wrong? So the

 

So the question remains if off Board fare payment SPEEDS UP SERVICE SO MUCH, why is only TWO minutes saved per trip river to river?

PLEASE ANSWER THAT!

I repeat the average passenger saves only ONE minute, while some passengers LOSE TEN minutes.

AND YOU STILL INSIST IT IS A GREAT IDEA!

Are the MTA numbers wrong?

And dedicated lanes would screw up east west traffic for cars which of course doesn't concern you in the least, and signal priority would screw up north south traffic.

So you're telling me with a straight face that having people dip at each stop going through only one door is as fast as people paying in advance and boarding at all doors?

 

Listen SBS is a "new" concept here, but one that has existed FOR YEARS elsewhere and they don't give it any fancy name either. When I lived in Italy, this was already in place in several cities (Florence had it as did Bologna), so no it isn't the best idea ever. It's just a no-brainer in my book. I don't know why it only supposedly saves two minutes or whatever it is from end to end, but I would give the M86SBS bus lanes for the entire route. Drivers can stay in one lane like they do along 34th street. I used the M34SBS yesterday and it was annoying seeing drivers dash into the Bus Only lane. Cops should've been out ticketing those morons.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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I'm gonna end up asking ya'll to get a room or something :lol: :lol:

But on a serious note, I'm inclined to agree with VG8 on the M86.....as a person who has used it for work-related reasons, it seems faster. Statistics don't always matter to a regular passenger. Most people see off-board payment as faster trips in general, compared to how it previously was with the metrocard dipping, especially at Lexington Avenue.

Edited by Cait Sith
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I'm gonna end up asking ya'll to get a room or something :lol: :lol:

But on a serious note, I'm inclined to agree with VG8 on the M86.....as a person who has used it for work-related reasons, it seems faster. Statistics don't always matter to a regular passenger. Most people see off-board payment as faster trips in general, compared to how it previously was with the metrocard dipping, especially at Lexington Avenue.

So what you and VG8 are saying is that perceptions whether true or not matter more than the actual facts. Absolutely amazing.

 

And of course rather than responding to my questions such if you see problems with the MTA statistics, you completely change the subject to what is going on in other countries. Looks like neither of you are interested in having an intelligent discussion. I give up.

Edited by BrooklynBus
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