Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[Cait Sith]

So what you and VG8 are saying is that perceptions whether true or not matter more than the actual facts. Absolutely amazing.

 

And of course rather than responding to my questions such if you see problems with the MTA statistics, you completely change the subject to what is going on in other countries. Looks like neither of you are interested in having an intelligent discussion. I give up.

 

So, let me get this straight, just because some people disagree with your assessments, we're not capable enough of having an intelligent discussion? Bear in mind, most of whats being said are mere opinions.

Your facts may be true, but lets be honest, most passengers just don't care about statistics to the level that you do, especially when all they want is a bus to/from their location. They mostly care about when the bus will show up, or if it doesn't show up. Most of us are speaking from a passenger POV, you, are not. That's where our perceptions collide.

 

Everyone knows there's a problem with MTA statistics. Pretty sure 90% of the riding public don't even take their statistics seriously either. But I'm pretty sure people would want off-board payment over sitting at a stop for minutes on end waiting for hoards of people to board the bus and dipping their Metrocards.

 

Though, with every discussion like this, I find it funny how other factors aren't involved in why SBS service citywide tends to be on the bad side, like traffic conditions, horrible dispatching and such along with other unpredictable factors.

 

On the non-crosstown routes, I always see the SBS crowd flock over to the local bus when SBS buses don't show up. And that's going to be a growing trend, especially on the M15, where overall service severely tanked.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Cait Sith

[BrooklynBus]

So, let me get this straight, just because some people disagree with your assessments, we're not capable enough of having an intelligent discussion? Bear in mind, most of whats being said are mere opinions.

Your facts may be true, but lets be honest, most passengers just don't care about statistics to the level that you do, especially when all they want is a bus to/from their location. They mostly care about when the bus will show up, or if it doesn't show up. Most of us are speaking from a passenger POV, you, are not. That's where our perceptions collide.

Everyone knows there's a problem with MTA statistics. Pretty sure 90% of the riding public don't even take their statistics seriously either. But I'm pretty sure people would want off-board payment over sitting at a stop for minutes on end waiting for hoards of people to board the bus and dipping their Metrocards.

Though, with every discussion like this, I find it funny how other factors aren't involved in why SBS service citywide tends to be on the bad side, like traffic conditions, horrible dispatching and such along with other unpredictable factors.

On the non-crosstown routes, I always see the SBS crowd flock over to the local bus when SBS buses don't show up. And that's going to be a growing trend, especially on the M15, where overall service severely tanked.

No, not at all. An intelligent discussion is when someone raises a point and someone else counters that point. That is not what is happening here. I am raising points which are not being addressed. Instead, the response seeks to divert the subject by raising other non-related points. Also, when a point cannot be countered, the person concedes the other one is correct. That is not what is happening here.

 

Someone spoke about how beneficial fare prepayment has been. When I countered with statistics showing the time savings has been negligible, the response was that it is still benefcial because statistics don't matter, only perceptions do.

 

Also what about the person who claimed an 11 minute savings each way when the statistics showed only a two minute savings? No one responded to that point either.

 

You are also incorrect by saying I don't see it from the passengers point of view. I certainly do by talking about how much time the passenger saves or doesn't save. Discussing how much time is saved River to River and on a round trip, certainly is not seeing the passengers point of view, which were points others were raising.

 

Now you say everyone realizes there is a problem with MTA statistics. So how come when those statistics exaggerate the benefits of SBS in other MTA reports, those aren't challenged except my me? You seem to be saying that the benefits are really greater than the MTA is claiming. Now why would that ever happen?

 

I am not addressing your other points about dispatching, etc until she one addresses the points I raised regarding fare prepayment.

Edited June 18, 2017 by BrooklynBus

[East New York]

So what you and VG8 are saying is that perceptions whether true or not matter more than the actual facts. Absolutely amazing.

And of course rather than responding to my questions such if you see problems with the MTA statistics, you completely change the subject to what is going on in other countries. Looks like neither of you are interested in having an intelligent discussion. I give up.

Actual facts? Have you rode the M86 as a passenger? How ,any times? Ever from end to end? Have you been surveying in an official capacity for the last 9 years? If you work for MTA then you have access to at least 60% of the same info that I do. If you are a supervisor then you have access to at least 75% of the same info that I do. However keep in mind that I have a much higher security clearance than 90% of the entire MTA workforce across all divisions. As Cait said, and as everyone knows, the stats are only general estimates and will never be completely accurate with an agency this size with conditions that can change daily.... There is always a margin of error. However, if you wanna get into some stats I can send the declassified copy right now. Plus your stats are out of date by almost a year and a half now.

 

For general purposes, first of all it's quite obvious that you do not realized how some things work when it comes to Operations. Your comments alone tell me that you have no idea that the M86 is the heaviest bus line (per passenger mile) than any other in the entire MTA. That being said anyone can see that The saving on this route are meant for a few minutes and off- board payment only. The stops are not farther apart like other SBS routes so there is only so much time that can be saved by default anyway. Clearly Durning rush hour there won't be much of a difference. The stats you are referring to are from February 2015 to February 2016 and that is ONLY factoring in rush hour trips. For one, off peak end to end the run is only 20 minutes. Up to 30 minutes during peak times. This means that the route is 8-11% faster during that period and we are still waiting g for the year over 2017 stats now which will further proof my point. For the sake of argument, even if it is still only 2 minutes saves, that's still an average of 64 minutes shaved off each daily trip, and let's not forget your 2 minutes only apply to the period of 5:15am to 6:15am. More like 96 saved minutes per day and less gas burned.

 

As I said I'm sure the numbers in this year's report will be much higher. Again you need to keep in lines that's this is the heaviest used line per passenger mile than any bus in the entire country.... You keep factoring information that's actually more than a year and a half old now. I'm not saying that it's that much different, but either way it's clear to see from any passenger or operations standpoint that the route is more efficient.

 

If u wanna stick to the numbers you need to also factor in that there is more traffic on 86 than it was 18 months ago as well. Now if it took an hour to get from end to end, and only 2 minutes were saved then that would be a complete waste of money. However, you also fail to mention that your 2 minutes is during AM rush which is always the heaviest. Either way, that 2 minutes is still 8% faster, and the afternoon rush runs are still at least 11% faster. The run Is only 30 minutes. It's not logical or mathematically possible to reach really high numbers with such a short route.

 

Specially a route that uniquely carries more passengers per square mile than any other routes I'm this entire country try and most likely the entire hemisphere. Again, I stand on my word that when the official report is released for this year you will better be able to look and and understand exactly what the rest of us are talking about. The numbers you are talking about I got in a report over a year ago. As soon as I find it I will link it and possibly be able to provide more details as I can't remember what all is on it.

 

Source: 2 Broadway, East New York, and the Department of Transportation.

Edited June 18, 2017 by East New York

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So what you and VG8 are saying is that perceptions whether true or not matter more than the actual facts. Absolutely amazing.

And of course rather than responding to my questions such if you see problems with the MTA statistics, you completely change the subject to what is going on in other countries. Looks like neither of you are interested in having an intelligent discussion. I give up.

Don't be ridiculous. You know very well that off-fare payment is faster than having people dip their cards. You don't need stats for that. Common sense dictates that. As for why SBS only saves a few minutes? Likely due to growing congestion. The M86SBS doesn't have dedicated bus lanes so that limits how fast it can be, and I only know of one intersection where it is using the delayed light technology, and that's at Park and 86th, so there's that. I have never said that SBS was a messiah because it isn't but some of its features should be increased.

[Cait Sith]

I am not addressing your other points about dispatching, etc until she one addresses the points I raised regarding fare prepayment.

In that case, let's talk about this then so we can reach a common ground.

 

In major stops, such as 86/Lex, 1st Ave/14th Street, the majority of the laguardia airport terminals, Main Street & 38th Avenue(Northbound), 23rd Street & 1st Avenue(Westbound), 34th Street & 6th Avenue, the Fordham & Pelham Bay Park areas, what was the time difference between regular boarding pre-SBS, and current off-board payment? These are well known long dwell time spots for different routes.

 

And by everyone(in terms of people not believing MTA statistics), I mean the riding public, not people in this forum. I'm sure if you've looked through MTA's Facebook & Twitter posts, you'd see how A LOT of people call out their bullshit with their so-called statistics

 

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

Edited June 19, 2017 by Cait Sith

[East New York]

You guys don't even really have to add that in. You CANNOT equally compare the M86 to any other route in the country because it carries more passengers per revenue mile that the M15, B46 or Bx12 and they are the heaviest used lines in the country.

 

There is no way to make any comparison that will be fare based on the statistics at had. My opinion to the side. I'm not trying to be combative or condescending, I'm just basing things on facts that not everyone is privy to. However, I'm waiting on a response from DOB on the link now so I don't have to search for my records, and should have it within a few minutes.

 

I have personally called out MTA on many of their stats over the last 9 years. I have also consulted directly with the President of the entire NYC Transit. I know things may not always be accurate so I try to be as accurate as I can with the information I have and advocate for change and transparency within the TA. There is a HUGE disconnect and that's why we end up in conversations like this.

 

I am one of very few people that have driven buses, engineered them, worked with Operations, worded with the DOT,mMTA management and Bus/Train Operators alike. My personal opinions come from a person who has been in all seats. I've even worked with 6 bus manufactures, and ran an R&D project for one of them and the MTA simultaneously. I don't talk just to talk or boost forum views. If that was the case you all would have booted me from here 9 years ago.

Edited June 18, 2017 by East New York

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Actual facts? Have you rode the M86 as a passenger? How ,any times? Ever from end to end? Have you been surveying in an official capacity for the last 9 years? If you work for MTA then you have access to at least 60% of the same info that I do. If you are a supervisor then you have access to at least 75% of the same info that I do. However keep in mind that I have a much higher security clearance than 90% of the entire MTA workforce across all divisions. As Cait said, and as everyone knows, the stats are only general estimates and will never be completely accurate with an agency this size with conditions that can change daily.... There is always a margin of error. However, if you wanna get into some stats I can send the declassified copy right now. Plus your stats are out of date by almost a year and a half now.

 

For general purposes, first of all it's quite obvious that you do not realized how some things work when it comes to Operations. Your comments alone tell me that you have no idea that the M86 is the heaviest bus line (per passenger mile) than any other in the entire MTA. That being said anyone can see that The saving on this route are meant for a few minutes and off- board payment only. The stops are not farther apart like other SBS routes so there is only so much time that can be saved by default anyway. Clearly Durning rush hour there won't be much of a difference. The stats you are referring to are from February 2015 to February 2016 and that is ONLY factoring in rush hour trips. For one, off peak end to end the run is only 20 minutes. Up to 30 minutes during peak times. This means that the route is 8-11% faster during that period and we are still waiting g for the year over 2017 stats now which will further proof my point. For the sake of argument, even if it is still only 2 minutes saves, that's still an average of 64 minutes shaved off each daily trip, and let's not forget your 2 minutes only apply to the period of 5:15am to 6:15am. More like 96 saved minutes per day and less gas burned.

 

As I said I'm sure the numbers in this year's report will be much higher. Again you need to keep in lines that's this is the heaviest used line per passenger mile than any bus in the entire country.... You keep factoring information that's actually more than a year and a half old now. I'm not saying that it's that much different, but either way it's clear to see from any passenger or operations standpoint that the route is more efficient.

 

If u wanna stick to the numbers you need to also factor in that there is more traffic on 86 than it was 18 months ago as well. Now if it took an hour to get from end to end, and only 2 minutes were saved then that would be a complete waste of money. However, you also fail to mention that your 2 minutes is during AM rush which is always the heaviest. Either way, that 2 minutes is still 8% faster, and the afternoon rush runs are still at least 11% faster. The run Is only 30 minutes. It's not logical or mathematically possible to reach really high numbers with such a short route.

 

Specially a route that uniquely carries more passengers per square mile than any other routes I'm this entire country try and most likely the entire hemisphere. Again, I stand on my word that when the official report is released for this year you will better be able to look and and understand exactly what the rest of us are talking about. The numbers you are talking about I got in a report over a year ago. As soon as I find it I will link it and possibly be able to provide more details as I can't remember what all is on it.

 

Source: 2 Broadway, East New York, and the Department of Transportation.

I think something else that will improve the M86 is construction.  Some of the work being done along 86th street is FINALLY being completed. I'm on the Upper East Side a lot and have been taking note of what's going on.  Once that wraps up and they actually repave parts of it that currently looks like a third world country (from Lex to 2nd - potholes and craters galore), it'll likely be even better.

[East New York]

Ok got it.... Didn't really want to search for mine, and this official version is much prettier and can better explain what sounds like opinion coming from me. That 2 minutes is not a valid arguement... If you are going to quote stats you have to examine all the numbers and insert all the variables. This can better explain what I was attempting to. But you can't skim. You have to read all of it, and yes construction will always slow things down, and has been a factor as well.

 

Sorry for the delay, they wanted me to pass you all the April update which has a breakdown. Mine is from January. Same info just more detail. Year end numbers for 2017 are not public yet.

 

http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/brt-m86sbs-progress-report-april2017.pdf

[danielhg121]

I just read the entire thing. Not bad, personally I haven't ridden the M86 SBS. Looks like it's certainly improving for the most part. Is it possible that we could get more of these route analyses mainly for the SBS corridors(Q44, plz). Pretty interesting for the most part.

 

 

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[checkmatechamp13]

So what you and VG8 are saying is that perceptions whether true or not matter more than the actual facts. Absolutely amazing.

 

And of course rather than responding to my questions such if you see problems with the MTA statistics, you completely change the subject to what is going on in other countries. Looks like neither of you are interested in having an intelligent discussion. I give up.

 

I will say this: Perception does matter to passengers sometimes even more than official statistics. For example, they say that passengers perceive 1 minute of waiting to be equivalent to 1.75 minutes in motion.

 

For example, I remember a news video taken when the S79 received SBS, and they interviewed people asking how long the trip took, and the couple of people they asked said it took about a half hour. That's basically impossible, since the quickest times on the schedule are around 45 minutes (and I've taken some of those runs, and that was with the driver flooring it). Even driving in a car down Hylan to reach the mall takes around 40 minutes or so. But because the bus was moving so fast, they had the impression that this was a good service, and in their minds, they rounded the time down. Contrast that with times service is delayed on a route in general, you'll sometimes hear "It took me two hours to get home" when it really only took an hour and 40 minutes, but the perception was that the service was terrible, so they rounded the time up.

 

When I lived in Brighton Beach, the general consensus among my family is that it took around 30 minutes to reach Canal Street. In practice, it was more like 40 minutes, but if the train service ran smoothly, we considered it about a 30 minute ride. 

[East New York]

I will ask about some others, but I don't request them unless it's something significant. I have the M15, Bx12 and I think k another one somewhere.I can try to request the link for the Q44, and in the meanwhile I did find the B44. But I warn you, this one has been revised several times and is probably the most extensive of all the SBS report cards. This was one of the routes I opposed because at the time I lived in that area and lost limited service on New York Avenue. This update was completed last May and was released in June. It's more than 30 pages.

 

http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/brt-nostrand-progress-report-june2016.pdf

Edited June 19, 2017 by East New York

[danielhg121]

Now the B44 SBS I have ridden and the bus lanes I think played a major part in improving bus flow along with off board payment ofc. For the most part, it was quite steady along Rogers and few deliveries if any. We bypassed a B49, which was crushloaded. There's also the short-turns that were introduced to end at Flushing Ave and Ave U, both of which I find quite helpful. In the afternoon, ridership tends to die towards the north and south terminals, but I can definitely see an increase in passenger activity during peak periods. My bus driver was able to floor it from Flushing Ave to Williamsburg Plz, the ridership levels fluctuated in coordination with the B44 local in the graphs but that can be attributed to the sidewalk construction work. Thanks for the info, ENY.[emoji846]

 

 

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[BrooklynBus]

Actual facts? Have you rode the M86 as a passenger? How ,any times? Ever from end to end? Have you been surveying in an official capacity for the last 9 years? If you work for MTA then you have access to at least 60% of the same info that I do. If you are a supervisor then you have access to at least 75% of the same info that I do. However keep in mind that I have a much higher security clearance than 90% of the entire MTA workforce across all divisions. As Cait said, and as everyone knows, the stats are only general estimates and will never be completely accurate with an agency this size with conditions that can change daily.... There is always a margin of error. However, if you wanna get into some stats I can send the declassified copy right now. Plus your stats are out of date by almost a year and a half now.

For general purposes, first of all it's quite obvious that you do not realized how some things work when it comes to Operations. Your comments alone tell me that you have no idea that the M86 is the heaviest bus line (per passenger mile) than any other in the entire MTA. That being said anyone can see that The saving on this route are meant for a few minutes and off- board payment only. The stops are not farther apart like other SBS routes so there is only so much time that can be saved by default anyway. Clearly Durning rush hour there won't be much of a difference. The stats you are referring to are from February 2015 to February 2016 and that is ONLY factoring in rush hour trips. For one, off peak end to end the run is only 20 minutes. Up to 30 minutes during peak times. This means that the route is 8-11% faster during that period and we are still waiting g for the year over 2017 stats now which will further proof my point. For the sake of argument, even if it is still only 2 minutes saves, that's still an average of 64 minutes shaved off each daily trip, and let's not forget your 2 minutes only apply to the period of 5:15am to 6:15am. More like 96 saved minutes per day and less gas burned.

As I said I'm sure the numbers in this year's report will be much higher. Again you need to keep in lines that's this is the heaviest used line per passenger mile than any bus in the entire country.... You keep factoring information that's actually more than a year and a half old now. I'm not saying that it's that much different, but either way it's clear to see from any passenger or operations standpoint that the route is more efficient.

If u wanna stick to the numbers you need to also factor in that there is more traffic on 86 than it was 18 months ago as well. Now if it took an hour to get from end to end, and only 2 minutes were saved then that would be a complete waste of money. However, you also fail to mention that your 2 minutes is during AM rush which is always the heaviest. Either way, that 2 minutes is still 8% faster, and the afternoon rush runs are still at least 11% faster. The run Is only 30 minutes. It's not logical or mathematically possible to reach really high numbers with such a short route.

Specially a route that uniquely carries more passengers per square mile than any other routes I'm this entire country try and most likely the entire hemisphere. Again, I stand on my word that when the official report is released for this year you will better be able to look and and understand exactly what the rest of us are talking about. The numbers you are talking about I got in a report over a year ago. As soon as I find it I will link it and possibly be able to provide more details as I can't remember what all is on it.

Source: 2 Broadway, East New York, and the Department of Transportation.

I have been retired from the MTA for nearly 12 years so the only information I have is what is released publicly. I look forward to reading the reports you linked. If 11 minutes were saved as you claim, I woud certainly think that would be worthwhile. I am not a stubborn person and am quite willing to change my opinions based on facts.

 

However, there is one inaccuracy you made. You claim the two minute savings I quoted from the report only applied to the peak period. The report I cited clearly states 7 AM to 7 PM. That is not only the peak period.

I will say this: Perception does matter to passengers sometimes even more than official statistics. For example, they say that passengers perceive 1 minute of waiting to be equivalent to 1.75 minutes in motion.

 

For example, I remember a news video taken when the S79 received SBS, and they interviewed people asking how long the trip took, and the couple of people they asked said it took about a half hour. That's basically impossible, since the quickest times on the schedule are around 45 minutes (and I've taken some of those runs, and that was with the driver flooring it). Even driving in a car down Hylan to reach the mall takes around 40 minutes or so. But because the bus was moving so fast, they had the impression that this was a good service, and in their minds, they rounded the time down. Contrast that with times service is delayed on a route in general, you'll sometimes hear "It took me two hours to get home" when it really only took an hour and 40 minutes, but the perception was that the service was terrible, so they rounded the time up.

 

When I lived in Brighton Beach, the general consensus among my family is that it took around 30 minutes to reach Canal Street. In practice, it was more like 40 minutes, but if the train service ran smoothly, we considered it about a 30 minute ride.

 

You make valid points. It reminds me of what my boss stated in 1993 when I was working on a personal security project. At that time personal safety on the subway was a hot topic and much in the news. People did not feel safe on the subway. My boss stated at a meeting that it is not important for the MTA to actually make the subways safer, only that passengers think they are safer.

 

Missed not seeing you last week or the month before.

Don't be ridiculous. You know very well that off-fare payment is faster than having people dip their cards. You don't need stats for that. Common sense dictates that. As for why SBS only saves a few minutes? Likely due to growing congestion. The M86SBS doesn't have dedicated bus lanes so that limits how fast it can be, and I only know of one intersection where it is using the delayed light technology, and that's at Park and 86th, so there's that. I have never said that SBS was a messiah because it isn't but some of its features should be increased.

"Some of its features should be increased."

 

That depends on the specific route." Your point about increased congestion may be valid.

[RailRunRob]

So the question remains if off Board fare payment SPEEDS UP SERVICE SO MUCH, why is only TWO minutes saved per trip river to river?

PLEASE ANSWER THAT!

 

I repeat the average passenger saves only ONE minute, while some passengers LOSE TEN minutes.

 

AND YOU STILL INSIST IT IS A GREAT IDEA!

 

Are the MTA numbers wrong?

 

And dedicated lanes would screw up east west traffic for cars which of course doesn't concern you in the least, and signal priority would screw up north south traffic.

. What am I missing which passengers lose 10 mins? I'm lost there. Crosstown routes seem like low hanging fruit. All your doing is adding off board payment. I guess the question is what is a New York minute worth and that's a average so perception will vary greatly depending on person and day So that 2 mins could be 6 on a Sunday or 1 on Thursday's PM rush. Off board payment does speed up the process no question about that. Are we saying the gains we make with loading we lose in traffic and road conditions? I mean compare the subway with express and local time differences if I started at 96 on the express I save 1 min to 72 and 3-4 to Times Square over the express. Using this logic I can say that's not a lot of time saved but capacity and being able to move twice the riders comes into play. So even if riders have a easier and more pleasurable experience with load/dwell times is that not worth something? Again if I look at time as money what is that two or six minutes really worth? Then what was the amount of money invested by the MTA for the upgrade? And can they break even over time? This investment is measured over years it's a long game. What am I missing here?

 

 

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[Via Garibaldi 8]

"Some of its features should be increased."

 

That depends on the specific route." Your point about increased congestion may be valid.

There's no "maybe".  It's been well documented that congestion has worsened considerably and it's one of the main culprits for worsening bus service city wide.  You being pro car/car centric, I would expect you to be skeptical. The other issue is the city constantly narrowing roads to purposely worsen congestion to achieve this Vision Zero nonsense.

[East New York]

I have been retired from the MTA for nearly 12 years so the only information I have is what is released publicly. I look forward to reading the reports you linked. If 11 minutes were saved as you claim, I woud certainly think that would be worthwhile. I am not a stubborn person and am quite willing to change my opinions based on facts.

However, there is one inaccuracy you made. You claim the two minute savings I quoted from the report only applied to the peak period. The report I cited clearly states 7 AM to 7 PM. That is not only the peak period.

 

You make valid points. It reminds me of what my boss stated in 1993 when I was working on a personal security project. At that time personal safety on the subway was a hot topic and much in the news. People did not feel safe on the subway. My boss stated at a meeting that it is not important for the MTA to actually make the subways safer, only that passengers think they are safer.

Missed not seeing you last week or the month before.

 

"Some of its features should be increased."

That depends on the specific route." Your point about increased congestion may be valid.

I totally understand what you are saying. I have not seen the report you are mentioning. I'm just talking about the 2 that I have, including the one I posted and that's a 2 minute savings which is still 8% faster considering its a very short 30 minute peak run. This brake down has AM and PM figures which are not the same. As far the the 11 min comment, yes I was off... Total daily time saving added up is about 94 minutes easy. Crosstown Manhattan routes will ALWAYS be slower than most all of their other counterparts. Edited June 19, 2017 by East New York

[BrooklynBus]

There's no "maybe".  It's been well documented that congestion has worsened considerably and it's one of the main culprits for worsening bus service city wide.  You being pro car/car centric, I would expect you to be skeptical. The other issue is the city constantly narrowing roads to purposely worsen congestion to achieve this Vision Zero nonsense.

You have no argument with me on these points.

[BrooklynBus]

. What am I missing which passengers lose 10 mins? I'm lost there. Crosstown routes seem like low hanging fruit. All your doing is adding off board payment. I guess the question is what is a New York minute worth and that's a average so perception will vary greatly depending on person and day So that 2 mins could be 6 on a Sunday or 1 on Thursday's PM rush. Off board payment does speed up the process no question about that. Are we saying the gains we make with loading we lose in traffic and road conditions? I mean compare the subway with express and local time differences if I started at 96 on the express I save 1 min to 72 and 3-4 to Times Square over the express. Using this logic I can say that's not a lot of time saved but capacity and being able to move twice the riders comes into play. So even if riders have a easier and more pleasurable experience with load/dwell times is that not worth something? Again if I look at time as money what is that two or six minutes really worth? Then what was the amount of money invested by the MTA for the upgrade? And can they break even over time? This investment is measured over years it's a long game. What am I missing here?

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If someone sees a bus at the bus stop but can't just board it because he first has to get a receipt, and sice drivers are instructed to not wait for passengers at the machines, he will miss the bus and may have to wait five or ten minutes for the next one even if the scheduled headway is every five minutes.

 

I am less concerned about the initial expense but the increased ongoing annual expense. Every staff summary asked for approval of $2 to $3 million extra in annual operating costs to fund no SBS. The MTA never explained why other than saying the Eagle Team was the most expensive component of SBS.

[East New York]

If someone sees a bus at the bus stop but can't just board it because he first has to get a receipt, and sice drivers are instructed to not wait for passengers at the machines, he will miss the bus and may have to wait five or ten minutes for the next one even if the scheduled headway is every five minutes.

I am less concerned about the initial expense but the increased ongoing annual expense. Every staff summary asked for approval of $2 to $3 million extra in annual operating costs to fund no SBS. The MTA never explained why other than saying the Eagle Team was the most expensive component of SBS.

That is true, if someone misses the bus that's the risk. They may have to wait for the next. It's happened lall the time all over the city daily.

 

As far as the increased costs, some of them will be offset by the hundreds of fines they pass out weekly.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If someone sees a bus at the bus stop but can't just board it because he first has to get a receipt, and sice drivers are instructed to not wait for passengers at the machines, he will miss the bus and may have to wait five or ten minutes for the next one even if the scheduled headway is every five minutes.

 

I am less concerned about the initial expense but the increased ongoing annual expense. Every staff summary asked for approval of $2 to $3 million extra in annual operating costs to fund no SBS. The MTA never explained why other than saying the Eagle Team was the most expensive component of SBS.

Oh please.  Another one of your overblown criticisms of SBS service. I can count the times that I've missed a bus because I had to get a ticket. I've had quite a few M86SBS buses wait for me and other passengers while we get our ticket.  They usually do when the bus stop is right at a light anyway, so if the light is red, they keep the doors open just for that reason.  I think you're looking for any reason to slam the service and quite frankly the two things you're complaining about the most is why buses continue to crawl along.  

[BrooklynBus]

Oh please.  Another one of your overblown criticisms of SBS service. I can count the times that I've missed a bus because I had to get a ticket. I've had quite a few M86SBS buses wait for me and other passengers while we get our ticket.  They usually do when the bus stop is right at a light anyway, so if the light is red, they keep the doors open just for that reason.  I think you're looking for any reason to slam the service and quite frankly the two things you're complaining about the most is why buses continue to crawl along.

 

I was talking about official MTA policy. Perhaps you have been lucky on your route. You can't apply your specific circumstances to all SBS routes citiwide.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I was talking about official MTA policy. Perhaps you have been lucky on your route. You can't apply your specific circumstances to all SBS routes citiwide.

So now you're complaining about the payment process which speeds up service? Give me a break. Well since you have so many criticisms, how would you speed up the boarding process?

[LTA1992]

To be quite frank, the Metrocard replacement provides the perfect opportunity to make the SBS brand obsolete. Install fare readers on the front and back doors and implement all-door boarding on all routes. That alone is gonna speed up service, especially since you won't even need to get the card out of your wallet of purse.

 

Tap and go. Just install street improvements on the corridors that need it and the solution is there. I've been waiting for an entire year, hoping someone made that point at the board meeting. But none yet.

 

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Edited June 20, 2017 by LTA1992

[BrooklynBus]

That is true, if someone misses the bus that's the risk. They may have to wait for the next. It's happened lall the time all over the city daily.

As far as the increased costs, some of them will be offset by the hundreds of fines they pass out weekly.

But does the MTA get the revenue for the fines or does it go to the city? Why can't we have some transparency?

So now you're complaining about the payment process which speeds up service? Give me a break. Well since you have so many criticisms, how would you speed up the boarding process?

I am not against off-Board fare payment as long as it can be shown that the time savings are significant and not miniscule. When making that calculation missing the bus should be part of the equation and not just ignored.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I am not against off-Board fare payment as long as it can be shown that the time savings are significant and not miniscule. When making that calculation missing the bus should be part of the equation and not just ignored.

As if passengers don't miss the bus when they have to pay with their Metrocard? The other thing that I don't get is how you can't conclude that off-fare payment is faster than dipping your Metrocard?  Do you really think that 30 people dipping their Metrocard on a bus is as fast as having the same 30 people pre-pay and then board the bus through all available doors?