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Select Bus Service Discussion Thread


Union Tpke

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Well, couldn't you turn the paper bus transfers into a transfer and a proof of payment receipt?

 

As long as you tell people in the changeover that if they pay with coins they must make sure to 1) take the transfer from the firebox and 2) keep it with them, you now have a way to differentiate between people who paid their fare in coins and farebeaters, while allowing all door boarding for people with smart cards.

 

Passengers would either show fare inspectors their smart card or the back of their paper transfer/POP receipt which has the date, time, bus route and bus number on which the fare was paid. Same thing with SingleRide Tickets (if people actually choose to use those on buses)

 

That's another thing that Seattle has that's kind of beneficial.

 

When you pay cash fare for their RapidRide service, you receive just that, a transfer/POP ticket. That same ticket has a timeframe as to when it was distributed, and how long it'll last for. If the proper fare enforcement checking is in place, it would be nearly impossible to farebeat with those kinds of tickets.

 

Thing is, you likely need less people to do that than whats currently employed for Eagle Team AND the checks would be accurate as opposed to the current ticket checking structure which allows for people getting off the bus to give their tickets to someone else. Jack up the fine to and set a few examples and publicize them. The fine alone is gonna be newsworthy.

 

Somewhat, but the way they do it is kind of genius. Sometimes, you'll even have them ride the buses undercover to make sure people pay as well. There's also been word that they might implement barcode scanning on tickets to ensure its only been used once, and if its been used more than once, they're in trouble

 

It's safe to say that visual applications are no longer as reliable as they used to be. We have the technology to advance further into deterring farebeating, but its a matter of who implements it and how it's implemented. The fines would also help tenfold.

 

(I know I'm babbling on about Seattle a little too much, just trying to find the best possible example)

Edited by Cait Sith
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What I said was arrive at the stop in advance so you can get your ticket.  It's that simple.  You're the first one to sit and criticize bus service and how poor it is, and then you turn around and complain when attempts are made to speed up service. I'm sorry, but the status quo can't remain.  It seems as if you want bus service to remain in a time warp.  We have to move forward and speed up service.  There are very few stops where just "one" person is boarding, but nice try.  I for one am sick of people taking their sweet damn time to get on and pay.  This is not a social club.  Get on the bus, pay, take a damn seat and keep it moving.  That's the problem... Everyone wants to be so important and seen. It must be a cultural thing here in the States, because elsewhere, no one does this.  People board, pay, take a seat and keep it moving.

 

What would you have done prior to 1969 if you were riding buses then? No MetroCards and no exact change. And you had to wait at least ten seconds for each fare to count and register (before they ended the counting part.) That means it took from 15 to 30 seconds for each passenger to board. That doesn't count those who had to fumble in their wallets for change or bills. I remember standing on the sidewalk with three people in front of me and having to wait several minutes to board. I think if you had to go through that they would have had to lock you up in an insane asylum. Patience is something you obviously don't have.

 

I remember when I was in Hawaii in 1984. The first think they told us was this isn't New York. When someone tells you "right away" here, that means 20 minutes.

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What would you have done prior to 1969 if you were riding buses then? No MetroCards and no exact change. And you had to wait at least ten seconds for each fare to count and register (before they ended the counting part.) That means it took from 15 to 30 seconds for each passenger to board. That doesn't count those who had to fumble in their wallets for change or bills. I remember standing on the sidewalk with three people in front of me and having to wait several minutes to board. I think if you had to go through that they would have had to lock you up in an insane asylum. Patience is something you obviously don't have.

 

I remember when I was in Hawaii in 1984. The first think they told us was this isn't New York. When someone tells you "right away" here, that means 20 minutes.

That was almost 50 years ago... <_<  Time to get with the times!

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I'm not the most active on this forum, but I'm just going to throw my 2 cents before I disappear for another week. Reading this discussion kind've annoyed me a little.

 

So pretty much there is a argument of SBS off board payment system causing people to be delayed. Yet, no one ever complains about the same thing happening on the subway, LIRR/MNR, and HBLR. Fumbling for your metrocard or to buy a ticket on an TVM while a train is approaching can pretty much have the same effect as arriving the same time as an SBS bus approaches the station, yet we have no problem if someone misses their train because it took them too long to pull out their metrocard, or it took them too long to purchase a ticket via the TVM. Then there is the HBLR which is even worse because not only do you have to buy a ticket from the TVM, you then have to validate it before you can get on. But you don't hear people complaining about that causing them to miss trains. The way I see SBS, is bus service mirroring trains. the whole idea behind trains are that you have to be there before the train, and the same should apply to SBS. If you come late, you have to take the next one. If you give yourself ample time for the train you should also give yourself ample time for the bus. Also from my experience from SBS on the Q44 it has saved a tremendous amount of time at busier stops. On quieter stops usually the boarding time stay pretty much the same, and usually at most a minute longer if the B/O chooses to wait for stragglers. 

 

While SBS isn't the perfect god like solution to all the bus problem in the city, it is definitely beneficial to an already slow bus network.

 

Also a solution to late arriving passengers could be allowing passengers to pay both on and off the bus. Have the fare boxes programed to produce blank transfers (A transfer ticket with the meta data, but no actual transfer stored on the ticket.) SBS ticket holders use all doors. While late arriving passengers can hop on the bus dip their card and then receive a blank transfer as their proof of payment.

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The thing is if MTA chooses the tap and go option we are still going to have people fumbling for SmartCards at the trains and at the buses. Even if it's on our Smart Phones, there's are ways going to be someone who isn't ready, and delays everyone else. I huff and puff at these types of people on buses, at turnstiles, and at MVM's almost every single day.

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The thing is if MTA chooses the tap and go option we are still going to have people fumbling for SmartCards at the trains and at the buses. Even if it's on our Smart Phones, there's are ways going to be someone who isn't ready, and delays everyone else. I huff and puff at these types of people on buses, at turnstiles, and at MVM's almost every single day.

 

Growing pains, that's how its gonna be for a while lol. The Metrocard had growing pains for people too, especially when people had to learn to swipe properly. A majority of people still don't know how to swipe properly. I think a tap and go system would still ease that burden, regardless of how long it takes. It takes the pain out of screwing up your metrocards and waiting weeks on end for a replacement.

 

The one crowd that will get it regardless, will be the PATH train rider crowd, since they already have a pretty damn good, and secure smartcard system.

Edited by Cait Sith
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Facts Cait! I just hope they choose the pass and go option which will be faster than the tap and go as long as the proximity scanner is set up correctly.

 

This is pure speculation, but I could see our sytem ending up very similar to that of the LAC MTA. And for the record, my speculations have been 95% correct over the last 9 years....

Edited by East New York
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Facts Cait! I just hope they choose the pass and go option which will be faster than the tap and go as long as the proximity scanner is set up correctly.

 

This is pure speculation, but I could see our sytem ending up very similar to that of the LAC MTA. And for the record, my speculations have been 95% correct over the last 9 years....

 

Somewhat OT: is there any indication whether or not they'll integrate LIRR and MetroNorth into the SmartCard program?

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Good morning world! I was able to confirm some details on the previously mentioned M14SBS. We can get into the preliminary details later on today as I do a bit if background and try to see what the fleet plastic will be.

 

Just for a quick background, the 14A and 14D will remain. The SBS will make L trains stops and will continue to run after the train service has resumed. At this time, the MTA is pushing hard to make part or all of 14th street bus only during the L trim shutdown. All SBS buses will connect to the free East River Ferry, and the M23SBS.

 

This means Quill will in fact need more buses, and local service will be adjusted accordingly.

Edited by East New York
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The thing is if MTA chooses the tap and go option we are still going to have people fumbling for SmartCards at the trains and at the buses. Even if it's on our Smart Phones, there's are ways going to be someone who isn't ready, and delays everyone else. I huff and puff at these types of people on buses, at turnstiles, and at MVM's almost every single day.

 

So long as most of these people are doin it at the turnstiles and at the SBS machines and not holdin up the damn vehicle, I'm all ears lol!

 

Good morning world! I was able to confirm some details on the previously mentioned M14SBS. We can get into the preliminary details later on today as I do a bit if background and try to see what the fleet plastic will be.

 

Just for a quick background, the 14A and 14D will remain. The SBS will make L trains stops and will continue to run after the train service has resumed. At this time, the MTA is pushing hard to make part or all of 14th street bus only during the L trim shutdown. All SBS buses will connect to the free East River Ferry, and the M23SBS.

 

This means Quill will in fact need more buses, and local service will be adjusted accordingly.

 

While it's great that they're not just expecting the M14A/D to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and are adding more stops, why not SBS the M14A and D as well?

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Good morning world! I was able to confirm some details on the previously mentioned M14SBS. We can get into the preliminary details later on today as I do a bit if background and try to see what the fleet plastic will be.

 

Just for a quick background, the 14A and 14D will remain. The SBS will make L trains stops and will continue to run after the train service has resumed. At this time, the MTA is pushing hard to make part or all of 14th street bus only during the L trim shutdown. All SBS buses will connect to the free East River Ferry, and the M23SBS.

 

This means Quill will in fact need more buses, and local service will be adjusted accordingly.

So basically it's going to be an M14 Limited except it's actually SBS even after the shutdown. Nice and good to hear.
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If someone sees a bus at the bus stop but can't just board it because he first has to get a receipt, and sice drivers are instructed to not wait for passengers at the machines, he will miss the bus and may have to wait five or ten minutes for the next one even if the scheduled headway is every five minutes.

 

I am less concerned about the initial expense but the increased ongoing annual expense. Every staff summary asked for approval of $2 to $3 million extra in annual operating costs to fund no SBS. The MTA never explained why other than saying the Eagle Team was the most expensive component of SBS.

. Sorry been traveling so I'm a little behind on the thread. I see your point. But logically I could look at it from the point of view of time it takes for fare payment. Overall is the same either way. It's just off-board it's not at the expense of other passengers already enroute. The Miss and wait game happens all the time with rapid transit I always looked at select bus service is more in line as a surface subway operations wise. Thats the idea of BRT overall whether we feel SBS lives up to that standard it's a different story altogether. But paying with the machine beside press start is the overall time it would take on Bus with a transfer.

As far as eagle team this is an expense that is also incurred in other cities correct? For fare enforcement? Should we just look at this is a part of the game moving forward? You have to pay to play? But I see your point of view as well.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Edited by RailRunRob
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. Sorry been traveling so I'm a little behind on the thread. I see your point. But logically I could look at it from the point of view of time it takes for fare payment. Overall is the same either way. It's just off-board it's not at the expense of other passengers already enroute. The Miss and wait game happens all the time with rapid transit I always looked at select bus service is more in line as a surface subway operations wise. Thats the idea of BRT overall whether we feel SBS lives up to that standard it's a different story altogether. But paying with the machine beside press start is the overall time it would take on Bus with a transfer.

As far as eagle team this is an expense that is also incurred in other cities correct? For fare enforcement? Should we just look at this is a part of the game moving forward? You have to pay to play? But I see your point of view as well.

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It's not exactly the same with a subway. If you have your MetroCard ready and there is an empty turnstile and you don't get a "Please swipe again", the only extra time of going through the turnstile is negligible. With SBS, you have to look for the machine which sometimes isn't where you expect it to be. You have to read the instructions. Press start and then it takes a s cond or two for the receipt to come out. There also is a greater chance someone is in front of you than with a turnstile. I also didn't mention the time lost when the eagle team makes its checks. But thanks for seeing my point.

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It's not exactly the same with a subway. If you have your MetroCard ready and there is an empty turnstile and you don't get a "Please swipe again", the only extra time of going through the turnstile is negligible. With SBS, you have to look for the machine which sometimes isn't where you expect it to be. You have to read the instructions. Press start and then it takes a s cond or two for the receipt to come out. There also is a greater chance someone is in front of you than with a turnstile. I also didn't mention the time lost when the eagle team makes its checks. But thanks for seeing my point.

Oh please.  You're making a mountain out of a molehill.  I've missed plenty of trains and buses in my day.  They'll be another one unless it's the last bus of the night or something.  These days I tend to miss more trains than buses because of BusTime.

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It's not exactly the same with a subway. If you have your MetroCard ready and there is an empty turnstile and you don't get a "Please swipe again", the only extra time of going through the turnstile is negligible. With SBS, you have to look for the machine which sometimes isn't where you expect it to be. You have to read the instructions. Press start and then it takes a s cond or two for the receipt to come out. There also is a greater chance someone is in front of you than with a turnstile. I also didn't mention the time lost when the eagle team makes its checks. But thanks for seeing my point.

Honestly, all you have to do is press the button put in your metrocard and take the receipt. It's not rocket science.
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It's not exactly the same with a subway. If you have your MetroCard ready and there is an empty turnstile and you don't get a "Please swipe again", the only extra time of going through the turnstile is negligible. With SBS, you have to look for the machine which sometimes isn't where you expect it to be. You have to read the instructions. Press start and then it takes a s cond or two for the receipt to come out. There also is a greater chance someone is in front of you than with a turnstile. I also didn't mention the time lost when the eagle team makes its checks. But thanks for seeing my point.

 

At some point you really have to wonder when personal responsibility comes into play for someone not being able to get a ticket on time. The SBS machines are not that hard to use. I don't show up to LaGuardia for a 8:40 flight at 8:30.

Edited by bobtehpanda
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It's not exactly the same with a subway. If you have your MetroCard ready and there is an empty turnstile and you don't get a "Please swipe again", the only extra time of going through the turnstile is negligible. With SBS, you have to look for the machine which sometimes isn't where you expect it to be. You have to read the instructions. Press start and then it takes a s cond or two for the receipt to come out. There also is a greater chance someone is in front of you than with a turnstile. I also didn't mention the time lost when the eagle team makes its checks. But thanks for seeing my point.

 

To be fair, with a turnstile, you might have to be aggressive if there's a crowd of people that just came out of a train.

 

And yes, you do have a point that when the Eagle Team is out, the few minutes that you saved (especially on a crosstown trip of just a few stops) will easily be eaten up by the checks. To be fair, though, if they were smart about it (meaning the people who designed SBS, the ticket checkers are just following their instructions), they would board the bus and check while it's going to the next stop. 

 

Honestly, all you have to do is press the button put in your metrocard and take the receipt. It's not rocket science.

 

The thing is you might not have your MetroCard already out, and if you have to fumble with your wallet to get it out, that's another few seconds in which you could potentially miss the bus.

 

At some point you really have to wonder when personal responsibility comes into play for someone not being able to get a ticket on time. The SBS machines are not that hard to use. I don't show up to LaGuardia for a 8:40 flight at 8:30.

 

As I've mentioned before, this attitude of "just leave earlier" is why ridership is declining systemwide. What if you're coming off a connecting bus? Or what if you just want to go home to see your family? Those people can "leave earlier" or maybe they can just drive.

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Getting a SBS ticket takes less all of 10-15 seconds (literally). Let's stop with the drama please like it's so difficult. I keep my Metrocard in the same spot and have it ready and out when it's time to get my ticket. People need to be coddled too damn much and it's annoying. It's like the idiots walking around "lost" with their cell phone in their hand the entire time...

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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Getting a SBS ticket takes less all of 10-15 seconds (literally). Let's stop with the drama please like it's so difficult. I keep my Metrocard in the same spot and have it ready and out when it's time to get my ticket. People need to be coddled too damn much and it's annoying. It's like the idiots walking around "lost" with their cell phone in their hand the entire time...

 

And in those 10-15 seconds you can miss the bus. Yes, it's quick, but the difference with on-board payment is that if the B/O sees you running, you can get on and take your MetroCard out on-board while the bus pulls out of the stop. Now granted, you have idiots who stand in the stairwell and cause the bus to miss the light, but I'm saying that in those cases, standard on-board payment saves time for that particular passenger.

 

Now yes, overall, I agree that on busy routes off-board fare payment speeds up trip time overall. 

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It's not exactly the same with a subway. If you have your MetroCard ready and there is an empty turnstile and you don't get a "Please swipe again", the only extra time of going through the turnstile is negligible. With SBS, you have to look for the machine which sometimes isn't where you expect it to be. You have to read the instructions. Press start and then it takes a s cond or two for the receipt to come out. There also is a greater chance someone is in front of you than with a turnstile. I also didn't mention the time lost when the eagle team makes its checks. But thanks for seeing my point.

. Overall this is the same process in other Cities I was just on the West Coast LA and SD ticket machines and fare inspectors. LA now has a few turn styles in the subway. the Silver Line is almost identical to SBS. I mean New York isn't special wouldn't riders there go through almost the same thing? I agree with Bob on personal responsibility. How far can you bend backwards Offboard payment and POP is a Transit standard tho it may be new for New York. Again I see the point of view 50 years of a certain process and habits isn't going to change overnight takes time for people to adjust. it's moving more towards this new payment style Nor you or I have the power to change that and where talking select lines folks will get the hint.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Edited by RailRunRob
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To be fair, with a turnstile, you might have to be aggressive if there's a crowd of people that just came out of a train.

 

And yes, you do have a point that when the Eagle Team is out, the few minutes that you saved (especially on a crosstown trip of just a few stops) will easily be eaten up by the checks. To be fair, though, if they were smart about it (meaning the people who designed SBS, the ticket checkers are just following their instructions), they would board the bus and check while it's going to the next stop.

 

 

The thing is you might not have your MetroCard already out, and if you have to fumble with your wallet to get it out, that's another few seconds in which you could potentially miss the bus.

 

 

As I've mentioned before, this attitude of "just leave earlier" is why ridership is declining systemwide. What if you're coming off a connecting bus? Or what if you just want to go home to see your family? Those people can "leave earlier" or maybe they can just drive.

There also is the option of boarding the bus and letting the B/O know to let you off to get a ticket at the next stop. I have never tried this though, not sure if some B/O's are willing to do that.
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There also is the option of boarding the bus and letting the B/O know to let you off to get a ticket at the next stop. I have never tried this though, not sure if some B/O's are willing to do that.

A lot of MTA bus op's are very accommodating, if u tell them they will let you off at the following stops to get your ticket. However, the official rule is ride to your destination and get the ticket there. But lets be honest it's a free trip at that rate cause who would be willing to fork over money when you already got to your destination and can walk away scot-free. Anyways, be sure to take a picture with ur phone of the oos machines to prove you were at those stops and a lot of them have these reflective panels so be sure to include yourself and the machine id numbers.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

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And in those 10-15 seconds you can miss the bus. Yes, it's quick, but the difference with on-board payment is that if the B/O sees you running, you can get on and take your MetroCard out on-board while the bus pulls out of the stop. Now granted, you have idiots who stand in the stairwell and cause the bus to miss the light, but I'm saying that in those cases, standard on-board payment saves time for that particular passenger.

 

Now yes, overall, I agree that on busy routes off-board fare payment speeds up trip time overall.

 

If you're going to miss the bus you're going to miss it. If the driver is nice and waits then it's not a big deal. Besides most SBS lines have pretty frequent service so missing the bus is not the end of the world. The schedules ar created with that in mind, that generally speaking, you won't be waiting very long for the next bus.
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