Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[BrooklynBus]

9 minutes ago, RailBus63 said:

The MTA is not the only source of information regarding Federal funding - there are various websites including FTA and New York state which show what projects are funded, how much, etc.  Sometimes all you get is a project title so it may take some sleuthing to find out what exactly the project funding paid for.  

I also was looking at the NYMTC website. They are the ones who distribute the federal funds in this area. 

[IAlam]

14 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

But that's not the way I think supposed to be. They are supposed to be the same thing. The only times there should be deviations is when there is an unusual occurrence, like a road blockage, fire, parade, accident, unusual traffic,  etc. Or if there is some unusual activity that occurs only one or two days a week. Otherwise, bus running time and and scheduled time should be the same thing. 

But what happens is no time is allotted special circumstances like wheelchairs so one wheelchair passenger automatically puts the bus between 5 and ten minutes behind schedule. Then that snowballs until the bus is completely off schedule. 

For a bus to routinely take twice the allotted schedule is indicative of gross mismanagement. 

2

Actually, there are a lot of different factors that can affect run time, school, special events nearby, problems with the subway, ticket inspectors, accidents (en route or nearby), etc... It is almost impossible to have the same runtime every day and every time of day.

[Kingjunior34]

All along flatlands ave there are bus lane makers . Which confirms that sbs will be implemented this fall 

[Future ENY OP]

5 minutes ago, Kingjunior34 said:

All along flatlands ave there are bus lane makers . Which confirms that sbs will be implemented this fall 

Which part.. Canarsie end?

Also, the bus lanes on Penn Avenue.. Are they 24 hours or the usual 7AM-7PM M-F?

[bobtehpanda]

17 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Let's be honest here.  The  gets federal dollars running SBS, which allows them to save serious money.  A few questions regarding this:

1.  When they originally rolled out SBS service, I believe they were given federal dollars for new buses.  Does that expire or does it continue indefinitely?  I'm not really a fan of them swapping out their SBS buses with new ones and putting their old hand-me-downs on the other lines, but this is something that they tout to riders; that they'll be able to ride their latest buses.  In that sense, I do agree with you that they are acting as if SBS service should get better treatment than their other lines.

2.  What other federal $ do they receive by running this service?  Do they get monies for the service itself? 

Federal money does not pay for any sort of operations whatsoever, just capital improvements like the shelters, machines, lanes, traffic priority, etc. In fact, federal money does not pay for any sort of operations anywhere, and has never done so, with the exception of the DC Metro because DC does not have a state to fund that.

Presumably if there are travel savings over the entire route, they can use less service hours to provide riders the same quality of service, which is a money savings in and of itself. The airline industry has only managed to be profitable by aggressively increasing fleet utilization in the same way.

It would be fiscally irresponsible for the MTA to leave federal dollars on the table; as a blue state and the largest metropolitan economy, New York already has way more in federal taxes than it gets in federal funding. Anything we can claw back is a good thing.

[Kingjunior34]

33 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Which part.. Canarsie end?

Also, the bus lanes on Penn Avenue.. Are they 24 hours or the usual 7AM-7PM M-F?

Yes

[Kingjunior34]

9 minutes ago, Kingjunior34 said:

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Kingjunior34

[BrooklynBus]

4 hours ago, IAlam said:

Actually, there are a lot of different factors that can affect run time, school, special events nearby, problems with the subway, ticket inspectors, accidents (en route or nearby), etc... It is almost impossible to have the same runtime every day and every time of day.

I was already considering all the special problems you mentioned. My point was that if the trip takes 90 minutes to two hours every day during rush hours, having a run time of 60 minutes is gross mismanagement, and I am not backing away from that position. 

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Federal money does not pay for any sort of operations whatsoever, just capital improvements like the shelters, machines, lanes, traffic priority, etc. In fact, federal money does not pay for any sort of operations anywhere, and has never done so, with the exception of the DC Metro because DC does not have a state to fund that.

Presumably if there are travel savings over the entire route, they can use less service hours to provide riders the same quality of service, which is a money savings in and of itself. The airline industry has only managed to be profitable by aggressively increasing fleet utilization in the same way.

It would be fiscally irresponsible for the MTA to leave federal dollars on the table; as a blue state and the largest metropolitan economy, New York already has way more in federal taxes than it gets in federal funding. Anything we can claw back is a good thing.

I disagree. In the end, nothing is free. We are still paying for these buses. If not from our state taxes, then it's from our federal taxes. You don't implement a program that will not help people and will cost more to operate, just because you would get federal money to do so.

Even if a few operating dollars are saved due to shorter run times, it is more than offset by having to pay for fare inspectors, unless they can collect more in fines than their salaries and pensions cost. At $100,000 per year per head, I doubt that is the case. 

I computed that the cost to provide all the proposed SBS routes over a ten year period will exceed $2 billion. Is that worth the cost if the average time savings is only five or ten minutes for 45 minute or an hour trip from door to door? 

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I disagree. In the end, nothing is free. We are still paying for these buses. If not from our state taxes, then it's from our federal taxes. You don't implement a program that will not help people and will cost more to operate, just because you would get federal money to do so.

Even if a few operating dollars are saved due to shorter run times, it is more than offset by having to pay for fare inspectors, unless they can collect more in fines than their salaries and pensions cost. At $100,000 per year per head, I doubt that is the case. 

I computed that the cost to provide all the proposed SBS routes over a ten year period will exceed $2 billion. Is that worth the cost if the average time savings is only five or ten minutes for 45 minute or an hour trip from door to door? 

You say that as if

• not applying for these buses would cause our federal taxes to go down (it wouldn't, the funds would just get redistributed to other localities like they were for ARC and the cancelled Florida high-speed rail program)
• these buses are somehow extra, and are not being accounted for in normal bus replacement plans by cascading the newest buses down and retiring the older buses

Likewise, the Eagle Team's success can also be measured by a reduction in the fare evasion rate; by existing as a deterrent, they also convince more people to pay instead of farebeat.

That $2B number sounds like hogwash. In an era where the MTA is issuing debt in lieu of city and state capital funding and the buses are falling apart, a multi-billion-dollar line item would be pretty big news, yet somehow no watchdog or inspector general or tabloid has managed to find such a scandal? Something that would be a third of the 2010 service cuts every year sounds like a pretty big deal, and these days transit scandals are basically red meat for the city's papers.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

You say that as if

• not applying for these buses would cause our federal taxes to go down (it wouldn't, the funds would just get redistributed to other localities like they were for ARC and the cancelled Florida high-speed rail program)
• these buses are somehow extra, and are not being accounted for in normal bus replacement plans by cascading the newest buses down and retiring the older buses

Likewise, the Eagle Team's success can also be measured by a reduction in the fare evasion rate; by existing as a deterrent, they also convince more people to pay instead of farebeat.

That $2B number sounds like hogwash. In an era where the MTA is issuing debt in lieu of city and state capital funding and the buses are falling apart, a multi-billion-dollar line item would be pretty big news, yet somehow no watchdog or inspector general or tabloid has managed to find such a scandal? Something that would be a third of the 2010 service cuts every year sounds like a pretty big deal, and these days transit scandals are basically red meat for the city's papers.

That's all fine and good, but the way that the markets SBS is just flat out wrong. Ride our newest fleet. Why should SBS lines get the newest buses? It comes off as SBS being treated with more priority than other bus lines. We have some local bus lines that are still using buses from the 1990s and yet some SBS lines are getting their second batch of new buses. It comes off as we don't give a damn about riders on other local bus lines who are also paying $2.75.

[BrooklynBus]

8 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

You say that as if

• not applying for these buses would cause our federal taxes to go down (it wouldn't, the funds would just get redistributed to other localities like they were for ARC and the cancelled Florida high-speed rail program)
• these buses are somehow extra, and are not being accounted for in normal bus replacement plans by cascading the newest buses down and retiring the older buses

Likewise, the Eagle Team's success can also be measured by a reduction in the fare evasion rate; by existing as a deterrent, they also convince more people to pay instead of farebeat.

That $2B number sounds like hogwash. In an era where the MTA is issuing debt in lieu of city and state capital funding and the buses are falling apart, a multi-billion-dollar line item would be pretty big news, yet somehow no watchdog or inspector general or tabloid has managed to find such a scandal? Something that would be a third of the 2010 service cuts every year sounds like a pretty big deal, and these days transit scandals are basically red meat for the city's papers.

No. I never stated our federal taxes would go down. So what if another area gets federal funds for a project with more benefits than a wasted project here? To me that is a good thing. And if they go to another bad program instead, that would be the fault of the federal government, not our MTA. 

Also, there is no such thing as "extra buses". We have bus requirements because if increased ridership or buses needing to be replaced. The number of buses needed remains the same, whether they are put on SBS or other routes.

The $2 million figure is not hogwash. I explained it here: http://www.gothamgazette.com/opinion/7599-the-great-select-bus-service-conspiracy-part-i Explain to me where I made an error. 

And you are still naive enough to believe MTA statistics? According to your link the Eagle Team has been a success. Nowhere in the report does it state what the Eagle Team costs vs. the amount of revenue it collects. That is missing crucial information.

It also states: that in November 2013, the Transportation Committee requested an update on the Eagle Team and that fare reduction after SBS on the B44 was reduced by 50 percent. Please explain to me how that is possible when the B44 SBS was not implemented until November 12, 2013? So what are they measuring? That discrepancy makes all the numbers in that report suspect. 

[BrooklynBus]

17 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's all fine and good, but the way that the markets SBS is just flat out wrong. Ride our newest fleet. Why should SBS lines get the newest buses? It comes off as SBS being treated with more priority than other bus lines. We have some local bus lines that are still using buses from the 1990s and yet some SBS lines are getting their second batch of new buses. It comes off as we don't give a damn about riders on other local bus lines who are also paying $2.75.

It comes off that way because that's the way it is.

[RailRunRob]

On 7/1/2018 at 9:40 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It comes off as SBS being treated with more priority than other bus lines

Just playing devil's advocate here. Wouldnt you put more resources towards higher ridership and performing lines? SBS lines kinda fit that description in most cases though not all.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Just playing devil's advocate here. Wouldnt you put more resources towards higher ridership and performing lines? SBS lines kinda fit that description in most cases though not all.

A lot of SBS buses revenue wise aren't that great, since they consist of a lot of people transferring, especially the crosstown buses.  That's why Bloomberg proposed making the crosstown buses free since so few people were actually paying $2.75. They were just transferring from another bus.  Bus ridership as a whole has been declining, and that includes the SBS lines, so we need resources spread around equally.  Most people that use buses don't just use SBS lines.  They do pay attention when new buses come out, and when they see lots of new buses on the SBS lines while other local lines have tons of old buses, they do complain out loud because their thinking is we're paying the same fare as everybody else, so why shouldn't we get a fair share of service and new buses?

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

A lot of SBS buses revenue wise aren't that great, since they consist of a lot of people transferring, especially the crosstown buses.  That's why Bloomberg proposed making the crosstown buses free since so few people were actually paying $2.75. They were just transferring from another bus.  Bus ridership as a whole has been declining, and that includes the SBS lines, so we need resources spread around equally.  Most people that use buses don't just use SBS lines.  They do pay attention when new buses come out, and when they see lots of new buses on the SBS lines while other local lines have tons of old buses, they do complain out loud because their thinking is we're paying the same fare as everybody else, so why shouldn't we get a fair share of service and new buses?

To the contrary we're seeing tons of new buses on my local routes B48, B67 B69, B45 maybe it's a Brooklyn thing?  Do these newer buses have benefits that can be used with the SBS routes? More capacity? Better automation, information systems? Using that logic even if SBS route's get more people transferring the fare was paid at some point.  The people on these local routes at some point should see/benefit from these newer buses when they transfer.  There are way more local routes buses are always in the process of being replaced somewhere. SBS are higher used routes I would expect a bit more attention in high traffic areas to mitigate possible ripple effects. Most routes I see or use have decent quality and fairly new buses. B41 and B45/B65 everyone now and then i'll see a older bus nothing crazy.

Edited July 3, 2018 by RailRunRob

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, RailRunRob said:

To the contrary we're seeing tons of new buses on my local routes B48, B67 B69, B45 maybe it's a Brooklyn thing?  Do these newer buses have benefits that can be used with the SBS routes? More capacity? Better automation, information systems? Using that logic even if SBS route get more people transferring the fare was paid at some point.  The people on these local routes at some point should see/benefit from these newer buses when they transfer.  There are way more local routes buses are always in the process of being replaced somewhere. SBS are higher used routes I would expect a bit more attention in high traffic areas to mitigate possible ripple effects. Most routes I see or use have decent quality and fairly new buses. B41 and B45/B65 everyone now and then i'll see a older bus nothing crazy.

Most of the routes you mentioned are from Jackie Gleason Depot which has new buses. It's not a Brooklyn thing, I can assure you of that. lol  SBS should not be given any special priority.  It seems that only SBS lines have signal priority, which is inexcusable in 2018.  Let's see how long it takes them to roll out all door boarding Citywide...

[RailRunRob]

11 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Most of the routes you mentioned are from Jackie Gleason Depot which has new buses. It's not a Brooklyn thing, I can assure you of that. lol  SBS should not be given any special priority.  It seems that only SBS lines have signal priority, which is inexcusable in 2018.  Let's see how long it takes them to roll out all door boarding Citywide...

 

So does the Riverdale routes.. I saw the 7 and the M100 the other day on 168th fairly new and fairly clean. If I was charged with crowd control at a festival im going to allocated more people and resources where there's more crowds. The biggest and most fit guys need to work that area to handle what might come. Why would this asset allocation be any different? B46 carry's the most people? Let's get more buses over there that can handle and take on most people? Priority should go to routes that benefit the most riders. Isn't that how you get maximum returns? Those are SBS and Limited routes right now. Logical no?

Edited July 3, 2018 by RailRunRob

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

 

So does the Riverdale routes.. I saw the 7 and the M100 the other day on 168th fairly new and fairly clean. If I was charged with crowd control at a festival im going to allocated more people and resources where there's more crowds. The biggest and most fit guys need to work that area to handle what might come. Why would this asset allocation be any different? B46 carry's the most people? Let's get more buses over there that can handle and take on most people? Priority should go to routes that benefit the most riders. Isn't that how you get maximum returns? Those are SBS and Limited routes right now. Logical no?

Well yes Kingsbridge got some new buses in 2015, and they were sorely needed as the Orions were horrible buses spewing all of that black smoke in the air.  Not good at all for the community.  The 2015 models are more eco-friendly and quiet.  I've been walking along Henry Hudson Parkway at night to the express bus and have seen them pass and you can barely hear them.  With that said, if we look at places like Queens and most of Brooklyn, they have a large chunk of older fleet, with some buses that are 15+ years old.  Some SBS lines are now getting their SECOND batch of new buses... Ridership on buses is declining Citywide, so it makes no sense to divert all resources to SBS lines while leaving out the other bus lines.  Yes all door boarding is coming to all routes, eventually, but in the meantime, there's little in the way to entice riders to stick to non SBS routes. The countdown clocks on the SBS lines are MUCH nicer. They list at least 4 to 5 buses that are coming.  Meanwhile on the regular bus lines, you're lucky to get a countdown clock that shows you when ONE bus is coming.  The SBS has nice countdown clocks at just about every stop that I've been at. It makes a hell of a difference when it's cold out. No having to fumble with your cell phone to put on BusTime. In fact it even shows when BxM2s are coming at 81st and Central Park West.

[RailRunRob]

3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

With that said, if we look at places like Queens and most of Brooklyn, they have a large chunk of older fleet, with some buses that are 15+ years old.  Some SBS lines are now getting their SECOND batch of new buses... Ridership on buses is declining Citywide, so it makes no sense to divert all resources to SBS lines while leaving out the other bus lines.

Which lines are getting there second batch? B46? BX12? Q44?  

Edited July 3, 2018 by RailRunRob

[Around the Horn]

Yeah, I would agree with @Via Garibaldi 8 here... Jackie Gleason is a special case because of the regulations regarding CNG buses...

Just now, RailRunRob said:

Which lines are getting there second batch? B46? BX12? Q44?  A  

Just off the top of my head: B46, Q44, Bx12, the Manhattan crosstowns... Actually the M34 is on its third batch...

[RailRunRob]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The countdown clocks on the SBS lines are MUCH nicer. They list at least 4 to 5 buses that are coming.  Meanwhile on the regular bus lines, you're lucky to get a countdown clock that shows you when ONE bus is coming.

Again why wouldn't I place the better tech where more people can get use of it? Start there and then work your way down the secondary routes.

[RailRunRob]

6 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

Yeah, I would agree with @Via Garibaldi 8 here... Jackie Gleason is a special case because of the regulations regarding CNG buses...

Just off the top of my head: B46, Q44, Bx12, the Manhattan crosstowns... Actually the M34 is on its third batch...

The B46 are swapping off 73xx buses their fairly new? Q44 53xx's not too old..same with Bx12..  Wouldnt be smart to have newer buses on higher capacity lines? Or at least rotate? Newer buses, fewer issues and ripple effects on more relied upon lines?

Edited July 3, 2018 by RailRunRob

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

The B46 are swapping off 73xx buses there fairly new? Q44 53xx's not too old..same with Bx12..  Wouldnt be smart to have newer buses on higher capacity lines? Or at least rotate? Newer buses, fewer issues and ripple effects on more relied upon lines?

When you have an entire bus system to look after and you're trying to stop the bleeding of the decline in ridership Citywide, no, you don't keep putting the newer buses on the SBS lines until the other local lines get what they need. There is no way that SBS lines should keep getting new buses when you have buses that are 15+ years old on various bus lines in Queens and Brooklyn.  You have a good chunk of Southeast Brooklyn that has no subways and a good chunk of Eastern Queens with no subways.  All of those areas rely heavily on bus service and just about all of them are using buses that are quite old.

[RailRunRob]

38 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

When you have an entire bus system to look after and you're trying to stop the bleeding of the decline in ridership Citywide, no, you don't keep putting the newer buses on the SBS lines until the other local lines get what they need. There is no way that SBS lines should keep getting new buses when you have buses that are 15+ years old on various bus lines in Queens and Brooklyn.  You have a good chunk of Southeast Brooklyn that has no subways and a good chunk of Eastern Queens with no subways.  All of those areas rely heavily on bus service and just about all of them are using buses that are quite old.

But aren’t these older buses on there way out? You taking about RTS’s  Orion 7s right? Also most of the routes in question are also articulate routes and buses are you taking ENY routes?  UP?  Both are XD40 depots could Nova and XD60’s even be used there? Why did they order articulates as  priority if that’s the case. What’s the avg age of the bus at these depots?

Edited July 3, 2018 by RailRunRob