Select Bus Service Discussion Thread

[Union Tpke]

The plan for Glenwood Road is shown in this new presentation.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/brt-south-brooklyn-b82-may2017.pdf

[RailRunRob]

He's always talked about making the system more connected, so I was talking about that in a general context, not in terms of what he said in this actual thread. I don't necessarily agree with him on that either (for example, I don't care for the idea of using commuter rails to improve subway service, but he does) and if you look at other posts between the two of us in other threads, you'll see that, and that was the main reason I called him out for saying that he didn't know the interworkings of the bus system. My take on it is if you're going to make such statements about making our system work more as "one", then to me it's hypocritical to then not have the sort of knowledge that one should have about the system as a whole, so again, I stand by what I said and I am not apologizing. If he feels as strongly as he claims he does about how our system should be more unified, then he should go out and learn the interworkings of it, be it the bus or the rail system.

 

As for it needing SBS, no I wasn't confident on it, but since folks like yourself proposed it, I said sure why not? I was speaking hypothetically. Quite frankly what else can you do to make that line more reliable aside from giving it SBS?

Putting my money were my mouth is I've studied up on the Bus system I'm up to date with every depot and routes assigned. Every bus type in memory and every route I'm maybe 65% with route destinations with some SI and Qns routes to memorize. Give me by the weekend I'll get to schedules and then we can put this all behind us and never have this conversation again.

 

 

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[P3F]

On Kings Highway between Ocean Avenue & Avenue K, are they planning to put bus lanes on the main road, or on the service roads? I think it'd be absurd to take up a lane in each direction on the main road, where traffic already moves fairly well.

[limitednyc]

have they said what the service span will be. 

[Union Tpke]

On Kings Highway between Ocean Avenue & Avenue K, are they planning to put bus lanes on the main road, or on the service roads? I think it'd be absurd to take up a lane in each direction on the main road, where traffic already moves fairly well.

 

I think that they will be on the main road. They will be in travel lanes according to the presentation.

[Q43 Floral Park]

He's always talked about making the system more connected, so I was talking about that in a general context, not in terms of what he said in this actual thread.  I don't necessarily agree with him on that either (for example, I don't care for the idea of using commuter rails to improve subway service, but he does) and if you look at other posts between the two of us in other threads, you'll see that, and that was the main reason I called him out for saying that he didn't know the interworkings of the bus system.  My take on it is if you're going to make such statements about making our system work more as "one", then to me it's hypocritical to then not have the sort of knowledge that one SHOULD have about the system as a whole, so again, I stand by what I said and I am not apologizing.  If he feels as strongly as he claims he does about how our system should be more unified, then he should go out and learn the interworkings of it, be it the bus or the rail system.  

 

As for it needing SBS, no I wasn't confident on it, but since folks like yourself proposed it, I said sure why not?  I was speaking hypothetically.  Quite frankly what else can you do to make that line more reliable aside from giving it SBS?

 

I don't have the time or patience to search through threads and review your debates. The point remains that in the here and now he's attempting to broaden his horizons (props to him). Whether or not, you feel its late, is a personal sentiment we don't need to deal with publicly. We aren't having these discussions in any form of official transportation planning capacity and last I checked there's no official standard on personal knowledge regarding any subject... so if the bolded is a personal standard you've set, yikes, you aren't even meeting it...

 

As I said for the Bx6, the Alternative would/could be traditional LTD but I feel you jumping on the proverbial bandwagon... it's always a good look after just getting on someone for their deficiencies on the same matter .

 

 

The thing with +SBS+ is that it only works if you have frequent service. If you miss the bus because you're fumbling at the ticket machine and you have to wait another 20 minutes for the next crosstown Bx33, you might as well just walk.

 

But yeah, I do agree it should be extended further west. At least to the train, so you give CCNY students (and Hamilton Heights residents in general) a quicker way to reach the Lexington Avenue Line (especially for Bronx-bound service) instead of having to take the M100/101, and give Mott Haven an easier connection to the train. 

 

I'm walking across 135/138 anyway because 20 minute headways.... SBS might make me wait (I'm not serious, I'd still walk).

Since SBS started, it seems like protocol has become to leave passengers visibly at the stop (on all routes). I'm struggling to see the logic behind this (especially on SBS routes) because the op can't know where the follower is (unless their bunched). The wait could be 2-20 minutes anyway.

 

 

Okay I'll admit, I've been skimming through this whole Bx19 thing and not paying it too much attention on account of finals week, so I'm hoping someone can bring me up to speed.

 

I will drop my 2 cents in here though, whenever I'm waiting for the Bx19 in Harlem, which I've been taking very frequently lately, I've noticed that there are times when I've waited a good 20-25 minutes for an E/B bus at Convent/145th, while seeing at least 2-3 heading to Riverbank Park. Now idk if them being late coming from the Bronx has anything to do with it (I have a good feeling it does though), but whatever it is, its creating a cascade effect on that line. I don't propose making it an SBS line just yet though. I say for the time being, just make it Limited.

 

 

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I'm going to make an assumption here (I'm sure you'll be able to make it out) who is going to tell an op to cut their layover short, leave early and make sure they do it?

[Future ENY OP]

The plan for Glenwood Road is shown in this new presentation.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/brt-south-brooklyn-b82-may2017.pdf

 

Got a chance to read the new presentation for the B82 SBS and what I find interesting is that westbound B82 would have to turn on East 103rd to access the exclusive bus lane down Glenwood. If this is going to speed things up for both the B82 and B6 than I'm for this plan.

 

However, I see some inconveniences with this proposal. The Canarsie residents have need to pull up a good fight so that Glenwood doesn't go 2-way.

 

Also further down Flatlands. No access to Ralph Avenue and Avenue I. Traffic woes on the other end of Canarsie and Flatlands.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't have the time or patience to search through threads and review your debates. The point remains that in the here and now he's attempting to broaden his horizons (props to him). Whether or not, you feel its late, is a personal sentiment we don't need to deal with publicly. We aren't having these discussions in any form of official transportation planning capacity and last I checked there's no official standard on personal knowledge regarding any subject... so if the bolded is a personal standard you've set, yikes, you aren't even meeting it...

 

As I said for the Bx6, the Alternative would/could be traditional LTD but I feel you jumping on the proverbial bandwagon... it's always a good look after just getting on someone for their deficiencies on the same matter .

Of course you don't because you're too busy trying to "chastise" me (again with the holier than thou routine about what's "proper"). I know what I'm talking about and I'm not the one calling for a unified system (he is) therefore I don't have to meet any "standard" (he does), so yes good for him for learning about the bus system. Now are we done with this and that includes going forward because I am sick of you trying to "put me in my place". Just worry about yourself.

 

Since the Bx6 is part of the SBS discussion, and that's a route I have used rather frequently, I "think" I'm smart enough to be able to provide an opinion or do I need your ok? No, I don't think LTD is sufficient given the amount of dwelling that occurs at so many stops and how many times I have outwalked the bus from Grand Concourse to the area by Boricua College and beyond.

[RailRunRob]

Of course you don't because you're too busy trying to "chastise" me (again with the holier than thou routine about what's "proper"). I know what I'm talking about and I'm not the one calling for a unified system (he is) therefore I don't have to meet any "standard" (he does), so yes good for him for learning about the bus system. Now are we done with this and that includes going forward because I am sick of you trying to "put me in my place". Just worry about yourself.

 

Since the Bx6 is part of the SBS discussion, and that's a route I have used rather frequently, I "think" I'm smart enough to be able to provide an opinion or do I need your ok? No, I don't think LTD is sufficient given the amount of dwelling that occurs at so many stops and how many times I have outwalked the bus from Grand Concourse to the area by Boricua College and beyond.

. For the record I do have a B.S in engineering from the University of California Berkeley so I'd suppose I'd meet some type of standard at least the state of California thinks so. Look I plan and build it's what I do! Do I know everything little nuance no. That's why I enjoy coming here and having these types of conversations. I'm not ashamed to say there are more experienced and knowledgeable people here. That's how you learn and step up your game up so to speak. I can only speak from my experiences on the topics which come from Attending Cal, working at Kawasaki, living in the City and the information and discussions I have here. What more can I do?

 

 

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Edited May 11, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Via Garibaldi 8]

. For the record I do have a B.S in engineering from the University of California Berkeley so I'd suppose I'd meet some type of standard at least the state of California thinks so. Look I plan and build it's what I do! Do I know everything little nuance no. That's why I enjoy coming here and having these types of conversations. I'm not ashamed to say there are more experienced and knowledgeable people here. That's how you learn and step up your game up so to speak. I can only speak from my experiences on the topics which come from Attending Cal, working at Kawasaki, living in the City and the information and discussions I have here. What more can I do or know?

 

 

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I don't have a problem with any of that.  My issue is with the idea of having this super integrated system that you've talked about. Sometimes it sounds like you contradict yourself.  Aside from that, I don't think such a system is so easy to achieve, nor does it make logical sense to try to achieve it given the circumstances.  If we're talking about just moving people from point A to point B, then yes, it's very logical, but we also have to look at how marketable such a system is to attract people to actually use it.  As it stands now, we have a system that in some cases isn't working.  The bus system is not complimenting the rails and vice versa.  Do we want people who just use the subway and rarely step foot on a bus and instead use their car if they actually do have real alternatives? Well from a congestion standpoint I would say no.  Since we're talking about SBS routes and how to make bus service more attractive, the question is what would it take for someone like yourself to use the bus system?  We have a population that is more geared towards using the subway (the stats easily show that) and ONLY the subway, or the subway and driving or using Uber or Lyft, and since you've talked about this integrated system, I'd say that goes against what you've been saying?

 

I don't believe in a fully integrated system, but rather a tiered one where people are attracted to different services, similar to what you see in Europe.  It's still public transit, and it still moves a ton of people and it makes transit attractive to those who would likely drive otherwise.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[RailRunRob]

Understandable perception is how we process the world around us. What you see as contradiction could be a lack of understanding,communication for other variables. Coming from my background in Civil, Environmental and now even development there'a a process I'm following the standard I learnt and asking the questions I'm not saying anything about the bus system sure it should be integrated with other modes. But before any of that from an engineering perspective I have to look at what the bus system is laid over? Thus my point of not fully understanding operations!! For the 5th time!! It's laid on top of a grid of varying bandwith length and shape a direct result of different planners,Cities and periods. Bottom line the Bus system is always going to a hostage of this dimension the MTA has no power in this realm. So yeah maybe I do speak of integration of rail abit more after all it's a less stressful and less complicated task and my area of understanding. I have to ask the question of operations while being mindful of the limitations of roads and there conditions. I never hear you speak or even acknowledge these limitations. This is what kinda trips me out!! What are the ways around to improve the Bus system? Dedicated Busways? The last few threads I've been on yeah..mostly rail I've had my views and did the math or what I thought the math to be and someone made a point or presented something logical that made sense I had to give it to them. So okay I hear you on your believes from my perspective sometimes it seems your points or more based on feeling ego and a limited perspective. And I don't say that in a bad way because I'm operating from limited information as well on certain topics. But I try my best to submit when I know I'm at a loss. But I at least have a standard of knowledge that can at least get me to the right answer something tangible that can be measured I know what I know in come's my degree! Don't know your history so I can only speak for myself. So back on point what exactly would you do or could you do to increase the quality of our service in our fair City? Tangible improvements.

 

 

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Edited May 11, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Understandable perception is how we process the world around us. What you see as contradiction could be a lack of understanding,communication for other variables. Coming from my background in Civil, Environmental and now even development there'a a process I'm following the standard I learnt and asking the questions I'm not saying anything about the bus system sure it should be integrated with other modes. But before any of that from an engineering perspective I have to look at what the bus system is laid over? Thus my point of not fully understanding operations!! For the 5th time!! It's laid on top of a grid of varying bandwith length and shape a direct result of different planners,Cities and periods. Bottom line the Bus system is always going to a hostage of this dimension the MTA has no power in this realm. So yeah maybe I do speak of integration of rail abit more after all it's a less stressful and less complicated task and my area of understanding. I have to ask the question of operations while being mindful of the limitations of roads and there conditions. I never hear you speak or even acknowledge these limitations. This is what kinda trips me out!! What are the ways around to improve the Bus system? Dedicated Busways? The last few threads I've been on yeah..mostly rail I've had my views and did the math or what I thought the math to be and someone made a point or presented something logical that made sense I had to give it to them. So okay I hear you on your believes from my perspective sometimes it seems your points or more based on feeling ego and a limited perspective. And I don't say that in a bad way because operating from limited information as well on certain topics. But I at least have a standard of knowledge that can at least get me to the right answer something tangible that can be measured I know what I know. Don't know your history so I can only speak for myself. So back on point what exactly would you do or could you do to increase the quality of our service in our fair City? Tangible improvements.

 

 

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I've spoken about it numerous times and even in my last post.  I believe in running transportation from a European perspective.  I lived in Florence Italy for quite some time where there is no rail system aside from the Intercity one in the city center, but there are no trams or subways like you would find in Milan or Rome... Just a network of buses, so you either walked or took buses or taxis.  Granted, Florence is fairly small, but nevertheless, the system is very efficient.  That's why I believe the bus system here could be completely overhauled if the wanted to.  It would take a variety of aggressive measures, one being tackling congestion first and foremost.  That is the one thing that was done there... They gave transit that sense of elegance that is missing here, that may sound "snobby" to you, but people use it that otherwise would be in their cars because they market the transit services differently.  I suppose that's part of what Cuomo is trying to do by adding these bells and whistles on buses to give them a sex appeal if you will and make them marketable.  

 

Since we have limited roads, we need to be more aggressive in maximizing their potential and limiting car traffic.  There are things like smog days where you are prohibited from driving according to your license. Here people make excuses about why they have to drive.  In order to get people out of their cars though, you also have to make bus service more accessible because rail isn't meant to go everywhere, nor should it.  Buses are much cheaper to run and can be very effective when run properly, and mind you I lived outside of the city center, so I often relied on the buses to get to and from my destinations.  

 

I've been a huge proponent of congestion pricing, signal priority for buses and even support making some roads bus only, prohibiting parking, along with the idea of having businesses make deliveries at night to reduce congestion during peak times.  The idea of SBS would definitely be helpful in that it would help speed up boarding, and that's something that should be done on ALL bus lines, without having to give it this stupid branding, because has existed in Italy and elsewhere for quite some time (well over ten years)... The system in most cases is basic but very effective.  There's a lot that needs to be done with the bus network here, but it will take a different attitude from the as well as them lobbying for changes that are out of their control, such as the ones I've mentioned (i.e. closing down streets to vehicular traffic).

[RailRunRob]

I've spoken about it numerous times and even in my last post.  I believe in running transportation from a European perspective.  I lived in Florence Italy for quite some time where there is no rail system aside from the Intercity one in the city center, but there are no trams or subways like you would find in Milan or Rome... Just a network of buses, so you either walked or took buses or taxis.  Granted, Florence is fairly small, but nevertheless, the system is very efficient.  That's why I believe the bus system here could be completely overhauled if the wanted to.  It would take a variety of aggressive measures, one being tackling congestion first and foremost.  That is the one thing that was done there... They gave transit that sense of elegance that is missing here, that may sound "snobby" to you, but people use it that otherwise would be in their cars because they market the transit services differently.  I suppose that's part of what Cuomo is trying to do by adding these bells and whistles on buses to give them a sex appeal if you will and make them marketable.  

 

Since we have limited roads, we need to be more aggressive in maximizing their potential and limiting car traffic.  There are things like smog days where you are prohibited from driving according to your license. Here people make excuses about why they have to drive.  In order to get people out of their cars though, you also have to make bus service more accessible because rail isn't meant to go everywhere, nor should it.  Buses are much cheaper to run and can be very effective when run properly, and mind you I lived outside of the city center, so I often relied on the buses to get to and from my destinations.  

 

I've been a huge proponent of congestion pricing, signal priority for buses and even support making some roads bus only, prohibiting parking, along with the idea of having businesses make deliveries at night to reduce congestion during peak times.  The idea of SBS would definitely be helpful in that it would help speed up boarding, and that's something that should be done on ALL bus lines, without having to give it this stupid branding, because has existed in Italy and elsewhere for quite some time (well over ten years)... The system in most cases is basic but very effective.  There's a lot that needs to be done with the bus network here, but it will take a different attitude from the as well as them lobbying for changes that are out of their control, such as the ones I've mentioned (i.e. closing down streets to vehicular traffic).

Every City is different with Europe, in general, you're dealing with older Cities and grids at pre-date vehicles by quite a bit. New York (Pre 1820 grid especially) Boston and Philly kinda share some of these values but tighter grids more restrictions overall. The population difference is something to take into account as well., Interconnectivity between major hubs, Towns, and Cities are a lot different vs the US interstate and Highway systems traffic flow is a bit different. Then you have American culture on top of that.  Florence has the Population under a Staten Island so how do you account for major differences in moving parts and just sheer size. How do you balance this with a city the size of New York? London would probably be the City to look to..  Again what power does the MTA without the DOT being all in..  They have no control over the routes there Buses take it starts with the DOT and the City.

Edited May 11, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Every City is different with Europe, in general, you're dealing with older Cities and grids at pre-date vehicles by quite a bit. New York (Pre 1820 grid especially) Boston and Philly kinda share some of these values but tighter grids more restrictions overall. The population difference is something to take into account as well., Interconnectivity between major hubs, Towns, and Cities are a lot different vs the US interstate and Highway systems traffic flow is a bit different. Then you have American culture on top of that.  Florence has the Population under a Staten Island so how do you account for major differences in moving parts and just sheer size. How do you balance this with a city the size of New York? London would probably be the City to look to..  Again what power does the MTA without the DOT being all in..  They have no control over the routes there Buses take it starts with the DOT and the City.

That's simply not true. The other points aside from the bold is valid, but there's already some changes underway (not with buses though).  Even if you look at London, their stance has been very similar in being aggressive about limiting congestion.  That has not been addressed here at all.

[Q43 Floral Park]

Of course you don't because you're too busy trying to "chastise" me (again with the holier than thou routine about what's "proper"). I know what I'm talking about and I'm not the one calling for a unified system (he is) therefore I don't have to meet any "standard" (he does), so yes good for him for learning about the bus system. Now are we done with this and that includes going forward because I am sick of you trying to "put me in my place". Just worry about yourself.

 

Since the Bx6 is part of the SBS discussion, and that's a route I have used rather frequently, I "think" I'm smart enough to be able to provide an opinion or do I need your ok? No, I don't think LTD is sufficient given the amount of dwelling that occurs at so many stops and how many times I have outwalked the bus from Grand Concourse to the area by Boricua College and beyond.

 

It's always the person with a holier than thou complex, telling someone else they have it. No I'm busy trying to discern information about the issues I care about, but if I was petty enough to do that I have the strange feeling, I'd end up agreeing with Rail further.... I don't think anyone is better than anyone else.... . you tried to put him in his place and others might have let it rock but I didn't. so it's okay that you're vexed in my book. We aren't done though because you misread my post again, I said the alternative to SBS on the Bx19 was limited. As for the Bx6, and LTD that would all depend on the stops selected (could've been the same as the SBS). IMO LTD service allows to see whether or not SBS will be overkill.  You don't need my permission to form an opinion, but what's beyond? 3 Av, Intervale? HP? I just want to be able to comprehend how much of the same territory we covered on a route.

 

lol this isn't europe, Rail pointed out all of the flaws in using Florence's bus system as a foundation to revamp ours. We discussed this before but you feel that people use cars because they want to and I think the that (and history shows) that people use cars in the city because the bus-train set up in their area hasn't been revamped in years. In regards to a "unified" system (I need a definition) but I'm with him in theory, it's not implausible. Signal priority sure, congestion pricing maybe (but this could easily disproportionately affect those of lower socioeconomic status), bus lanes on the Deegan waste of time.  One of the easiest ways they could unify and improve bus-train connections is by having buses depart 2-3 mins after a train is set to a arrive (in the case of routes that end at stations) and holding the last bus for train connections. MBTA and I believe CTA do this.

 

 

Got a chance to read the new presentation for the B82 SBS and what I find interesting is that westbound B82 would have to turn on East 103rd to access the exclusive bus lane down Glenwood. If this is going to speed things up for both the B82 and B6 than I'm for this plan.

 

However, I see some inconveniences with this proposal. The Canarsie residents have need to pull up a good fight so that Glenwood doesn't go 2-way.

 

Also further down Flatlands. No access to Ralph Avenue and Avenue I. Traffic woes on the other end of Canarsie and Flatlands.

 

What confused me is whether or not, Glenwood is 2-way when SBS is done for the night. I'm not to familiar with that part of Flatlands but the Ralph part looked messy.

[RailRunRob]

That's simply not true. The other points aside from the bold is valid, but there's already some changes underway (not with buses though).  Even if you look at London, their stance has been very similar in being aggressive about limiting congestion.  That has not been addressed here at all.

Okay. So if Con-Ed needed to replace something underground the MTA has a say in that? That B44, Q44, M15, Q70 or S79 is just going to go with the flow and detour and compete for space with the rest of the traffic correct? What control is there again when something can go wrong at any time on something you don't run or control? Sure same can happen with Rail at least the MTA owns the ROW. That's why I said we could look to London I was talking about the some when I was last there closest comparison I can think of. But then that go's back to culture. American Culture and New York culture and how we look at our priorities. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by RailRunRob

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's always the person with a holier than thou complex, telling someone else they have it. No I'm busy trying to discern information about the issues I care about, but if I was petty enough to do that I have the strange feeling, I'd end up agreeing with Rail further.... I don't think anyone is better than anyone else.... . you tried to put him in his place and others might have let it rock but I didn't. so it's okay that you're vexed in my book. We aren't done though because you misread my post again, I said the alternative to SBS on the Bx19 was limited. As for the Bx6, and LTD that would all depend on the stops selected (could've been the same as the SBS). IMO LTD service allows to see whether or not SBS will be overkill.  You don't need my permission to form an opinion, but what's beyond? 3 Av, Intervale? HP? I just want to be able to comprehend how much of the same territory we covered on a route.

 

lol this isn't europe, Rail pointed out all of the flaws in using Florence's bus system as a foundation to revamp ours. We discussed this before but you feel that people use cars because they want to and I think the that (and history shows) that people use cars in the city because the bus-train set up in their area hasn't been revamped in years. In regards to a "unified" system (I need a definition) but I'm with him in theory, it's not implausible. Signal priority sure, congestion pricing maybe (but this could easily disproportionately affect those of lower socioeconomic status), bus lanes on the Deegan waste of time.  One of the easiest ways they could unify and improve bus-train connections is by having buses depart 2-3 mins after a train is set to a arrive (in the case of routes that end at stations) and holding the last bus for train connections. MBTA and I believe CTA do this.

That's precisely why our transportation is where it is now because we make up a thousand excuses about how XYZ can't work instead of taking bits and pieces from what does work and implementing it.  The fact of the matter is buses can work effectively in moving people, and Florence is an example of that. You can laugh at how it isn't New York City and how small it is, but they've had an effective system in place for well over a decade with ALL of their buses having multiple kiosks available for payment, and meanwhile we've just started introducing things like off-board payment.  

 

I also don't understand why SBS would be "overkill"?  The only difference between SBS and LTD service mainly is the off-board payment and quite frankly, in 2017, you should be able to board all buses and pay in advance. How you think it's a good idea to go backwards is beyond me, but then again I'm not surprised at such thinking.  You also use the lame excuse of how people in the outerboroughs don't have options, and while that is a valid point, you conveniently leave out the fact that we have many people driving here in Manhattan with a plethora of transportation options.  This is why nothing is happening with congestion because every time suggestions are made, politicians start yelling about how unfair congestion pricing is and how driving is such a necessity. It's a total cop out, just like not having HOV lanes on the Deegan is a cop out.  Those lanes could double as bus lanes so that people aren't sitting in traffic for 30 - 40 minutes for what should be a 10 minute ride on the expressway.  

Edited May 11, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Okay. So if Con-Ed needed to replace something underground the MTA has a say in that? That B44, Q44, M15, Q70 or S79 is just going to go with the flow and detour and compete for space with the rest of the traffic correct? What control is there again when something can go wrong at any time on something you don't run or control? Sure same can happen with Rail at least the MTA owns the ROW. That's why I said we could look to London I was talking about the some when I was last there closest comparison I can think of. But then that go's back to culture. American Culture and New York culture and how we look at our priorities. 

You said the has no control over their routes.  Well then what do they have planners and dispatchers for?  That statement is completely incorrect.  Perhaps you meant to elaborate on that as in they can't control outside factors? Additionally, I don't know exactly what there is to look at in terms of culture (we're not back in the 1960's when Americans had a love affair with driving, though it may seem that way at times), but my generation believes in public transit.  It's that simple.  For the most part, millennials prefer transit over driving for various reasons, and hopefully this is the direction that we'll continue in.

[Q43 Floral Park]

That's precisely why our transportation is where it is now because we make up a thousand excuses about how XYZ can't work instead of taking bits and pieces from what does work and implementing it.  The fact of the matter is buses can work effectively in moving people, and Florence is an example of that. You can laugh at how it isn't New York City and how small it is, but they've had an effective system in place for well over a decade with ALL of their buses having multiple kiosks available for payment, and meanwhile we've just started introducing things like off-board payment.  

 

I also don't understand why SBS would be "overkill"?  The only difference between SBS and LTD service mainly is the off-board payment and quite frankly, in 2017, you should be able to board all buses and pay in advance. How you think it's a good idea to go backwards is beyond me, but then again I'm not surprised at such thinking.  You also use the lame excuse of how people in the outerboroughs don't have options, and while that is a valid point, you conveniently leave out the fact that we have many people driving here in Manhattan with a plethora of transportation options.  This is why nothing is happening with congestion because every time suggestions are made, politicians start yelling about how unfair congestion pricing is and how driving is such a necessity. It's a total cop out, just like not having HOV lanes on the Deegan is a cop out.  Those lanes could double as bus lanes so that people aren't sitting in traffic for 30 - 40 minutes for what should be a 10 minute ride on the expressway.  

 

 

Buses in NYC do effectively move people... the exact percentage of efficiency really depends on the standard used. I just said take an example from MBTA and apply it here because as Rail pointed out, Boston and NYC have similar set ups. I know that feature works because it saved me from walking on quite a few frigid nights. Obviously not opposed to applying principles that work in environments comparable to ours. I can't say whether or not Florence's buses are comparable to NYC because I haven't been and you aren't exactly spelling out what makes it successful and would it be economically feasible to implement on a larger scale. Quick question how is the transportation system in Florence funded? MTA being a day late and a dollar short makes sense when you consider there's never been a mass federal push for public transportation infrastructure like there was for driving infrastructure.

 

We've been discussing this throughout the thread... SBS service becomes overkill when the local service tanks because it ignores the fact that the latter has it's own market. I think MTA jumped ahead of themselves by liberally applying SBS wherever (setting the precedent that traditional LTD service is no longer needed) rather than actively applying both services. You might call it backwards but it would the same as them walking back some of the 2010 cuts; we need regular LTDs because we can't SBS everything.  I'm not sure how something logically valid/sound is an excuse but you clearly missed me saying that congestion pricing (which wouldn't be applied in the outer boroughs) would negatively impact that less affluent populations.. Do you drive? because you conveniently left out that park & rides are pretty crucial in encouraging drivers to use mass transit. All we have is what Outerbridge (X22) and Riis Park  (QM16) ? If someone has to move the car in the AM, and the options are spend a) 20-30 minutes looking for parking by the train/bus +commute time,  or b) spend that time in Deegan traffic, they're clearly driving to work).

 

I told you this before but besides not having even have enough lanes on the Deegan as is (especially with this god awful construction), I don't think we have the buses per hour to warrant that. The Bruckner/LIE sure but the BxM1-3/4C/18 aren't pulling that much weight especially with half the Bxm1's using the HR. You'd do better running everything via HR and putting lanes there 132-179...

 

As for the dispatchers... I'm trying not to be jaded because their jobs matter but I haven't seen many do anything to make life easier... Prime example, a parade goes up Mad, everything's on 3rd in theory, yet you can't find any officials to know if buses are actually making corresponding stops and how that works when the Mad stops don't match the 3rd stops.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Q43 Floral Park

[RailRunRob]

You said the has no control over their routes. Well then what do they have planners and dispatchers for? That statement is completely incorrect. Perhaps you meant to elaborate on that as in they can't control outside factors? Additionally, I don't know exactly what there is to look at in terms of culture (we're not back in the 1960's when Americans had a love affair with driving, though it may seem that way at times), but my generation believes in public transit. It's that simple. For the most part, millennials prefer transit over driving for various reasons, and hopefully this is the direction that we'll continue in.

Well I did mention the fact that the bus system is laid upon a and existing grid multiple times for reference I thought the connection was there and obvious. This isn't the first generation to believe in public transport pre war NYC were fully invested as well. Then no investment for the next five decades in New York at least. Problem with the millennials is that they don't control anything. So yes you're correct in saying that more people are moving towards public transit but the people that cut the checks and okay the deals definitely aren't millennials. Maybe in 20 years power will be shifted so the culture is still very much in the Spirit of the 1960s and 70s get the most for the least amount of investment.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1. Buses in NYC do effectively move people... the exact percentage of efficiency really depends on the standard used. I just said take an example from MBTA and apply it here because as Rail pointed out, Boston and NYC have similar set ups. I know that feature works because it saved me from walking on quite a few frigid nights. Obviously not opposed to applying principles that work in environments comparable to ours. I can't say whether or not Florence's buses are comparable to NYC because I haven't been and you aren't exactly spelling out what makes it successful and would it be economically feasible to implement on a larger scale. Quick question how is the transportation system in Florence funded? MTA being a day late and a dollar short makes sense when you consider there's never been a mass federal push for public transportation infrastructure like there was for driving infrastructure.

 

We've been discussing this throughout the thread... SBS service becomes overkill when the local service tanks because it ignores the fact that the latter has it's own market. I think MTA jumped ahead of themselves by liberally applying SBS wherever (setting the precedent that traditional LTD service is no longer needed) rather than actively applying both services. You might call it backwards but it would the same as them walking back some of the 2010 cuts; we need regular LTDs because we can't SBS everything.  I'm not sure how something logically valid/sound is an excuse but you clearly missed me saying that congestion pricing (which wouldn't be applied in the outer boroughs) would negatively impact that less affluent populations.. Do you drive? because you conveniently left out that park & rides are pretty crucial in encouraging drivers to use mass transit. All we have is what Outerbridge (X22) and Riis Park  (QM16) ? If someone has to move the car in the AM, and the options are spend a) 20-30 minutes looking for parking by the train/bus +commute time,  or b) spend that time in Deegan traffic, they're clearly driving to work).

 

I told you this before but besides not having even have enough lanes on the Deegan as is (especially with this god awful construction), I don't think we have the buses per hour to warrant that. The Bruckner/LIE sure but the BxM1-3/4C/18 aren't pulling that much weight especially with half the Bxm1's using the HR. You'd do better running everything via HR and putting lanes there 132-179...

 

As for the dispatchers... I'm trying not to be jaded because their jobs matter but I haven't seen many do anything to make life easier... Prime example, a parade goes up Mad, everything's on 3rd in theory, yet you can't find any officials to know if buses are actually making corresponding stops and how that works when the Mad stops don't match the 3rd stops.

1.  You must be joking there because I couldn't disagree more.  What exactly do you call "effectively"?

2.  ATAF is owned and operated by the city of Florence.  What makes it successful? Well let's see... For starters I talked about how use of public transportation is encouraged and how the use of personal vehicules is discouraged.  Aside from that, ALL buses can boarded through ALL doors, and payment is quick and efficient using the numerous ticket machines found through each bus, which means you don't have everyone boarding at one door using one machine to verify payment.  It allows for a much quicker boarding and de-boarding process.  More importantly, the riding public is fairly educated about how the payment system works because you have one payment system for all buses.  Here we have a mess.  You have SBS buses with off-board payment and then a bunch of other lines where you have to pay on the bus.  We need one payment system for all buses and one that is efficient and quick.  It should be noted that the same system was in place when I would travel regularly to Bologna, Milan and the like.  

 

3.  Personally I think if a line is turned into a SBS route, there shouldn't be a local version.  That Bx6 does not need a local variant.  It just doesn't.  Eliminate a few stops and have people walk a little further.  That's the other problem with the bus network.  Too many damn stops.  When routes get SBS, the entire line should be restructured to maximize usage of all buses instead of having this mish mosh of empty local buses and packed SBS buses.

 

4.  As for me driving, I live in the most walkable part of Riverdale, so while I could drive, I would be a fool to do so.  In any event, I don't support congestion pricing as is.  I think it needs to be looked at citywide. I don't like the idea of neighborhoods just outside of the so called congestion zone become parking lots for all of the people looking to avoid paying the fee.  We need to go further than just the standard plan that was proposed to really drive home the idea of not driving.  As I said before, numerous cities have driving restrictions in place beyond congestion pricing where you aren't allowed to drive on certain days based on whatever set up has been agreed to.  This forces people to use transportation and helps cut down on congestion considerably.  I also don't understand what park and rides have to do with this conversation? Nobody is attacking park-and-rides. If anything we should create more of them in areas where transportation options are really scare.  The folks in Breezy Point for example have no choice but to drive to the QM16 and park given the difficulty of getting bus service extended beyond Neponsit.

 

4. Oh please.  That bus lane could double as an HOV lane just the way it is on the Gowanus.  You're using construction as a convenient excuse.  Hopefully that project will be done in the next year or so.  

 

5. I agree about the dispatchers.  Rather useless...

 

I also should note that trams have now been re-introduced in Florence but only recently, and it's also been effective in fighting car congestion.  

Well I did mention the fact that the bus system is laid upon a and existing grid multiple times for reference I thought the connection was there and obvious. This isn't the first generation to believe in public transport pre war NYC were fully invested as well. Then no investment for the next five decades in New York at least. Problem with the millennials is that they don't control anything. So yes you're correct in saying that more people are moving towards public transit but the people that cut the checks and okay the deals definitely aren't millennials. Maybe in 20 years power will be shifted so the culture is still very much in the Spirit of the 1960s and 70s get the most for the least amount of investment.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

You are certainly right in that regard...

Edited May 11, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Q43 Floral Park]

1.  You must be joking there because I couldn't disagree more.  What exactly do you call "effectively"?

2.  ATAF is owned and operated by the city of Florence.  What makes it successful? Well let's see... For starters I talked about how use of public transportation is encouraged and how the use of personal vehicules is discouraged.  Aside from that, ALL buses can boarded through ALL doors, and payment is quick and efficient using the numerous ticket machines found through each bus, which means you don't have everyone boarding at one door using one machine to verify payment.  It allows for a much quicker boarding and de-boarding process.  More importantly, the riding public is fairly educated about how the payment system works because you have one payment system for all buses.  Here we have a mess.  You have SBS buses with off-board payment and then a bunch of other lines where you have to pay on the bus.  We need one payment system for all buses and one that is efficient and quick.  It should be noted that the same system was in place when I would travel regularly to Bologna, Milan and the like.  

 

3.  Personally I think if a line is turned into a SBS route, there shouldn't be a local version.  That Bx6 does not need a local variant.  It just doesn't.  Eliminate a few stops and have people walk a little further.  That's the other problem with the bus network.  Too many damn stops.  When routes get SBS, the entire line should be restructured to maximize usage of all buses instead of having this mish mosh of empty local buses and packed SBS buses.

 

4.  As for me driving, I live in the most walkable part of Riverdale, so while I could drive, I would be a fool to do so.  In any event, I don't support congestion pricing as is.  I think it needs to be looked at citywide. I don't like the idea of neighborhoods just outside of the so called congestion zone become parking lots for all of the people looking to avoid paying the fee.  We need to go further than just the standard plan that was proposed to really drive home the idea of not driving.  As I said before, numerous cities have driving restrictions in place beyond congestion pricing where you aren't allowed to drive on certain days based on whatever set up has been agreed to.  This forces people to use transportation and helps cut down on congestion considerably.  I also don't understand what park and rides have to do with this conversation? Nobody is attacking park-and-rides. If anything we should create more of them in areas where transportation options are really scare.  The folks in Breezy Point for example have no choice but to drive to the QM16 and park given the difficulty of getting bus service extended beyond Neponsit.

 

4. Oh please.  That bus lane could double as an HOV lane just the way it is on the Gowanus.  You're using construction as a convenient excuse.  Hopefully that project will be done in the next year or so.  

 

5. I agree about the dispatchers.  Rather useless...

 

I also should note that trams have now been re-introduced in Florence but only recently, and it's also been effective in fighting car congestion.  

You are certainly right in that regard...

 

1. The efficiency depends on the standard used... Are we comparing it to other N/E regional bus systems? International systems? At the end of the day it might not be as efficient as it could be but it still moves people 24/7/365 (read it's more than 50% efficient).

 

2/3.  As someone who lives off the local variant of an SBS route, no.  Some people are already walking far enough to get to the bus route,  and the nature of the payment system is exactly why people still flock to the local (try paying for the SBS with change or half-free student metrocard). They already went down the path of on/off-board payment, I don't see a way to consolidate that as you can't have off board everywhere and putting on-board back on SBS = LTD + bus lanes.   So basically Florence has a farebox by each door on the bus itself? I see people here just not paying, a need for more inspectors, which means more delays and unnecessary fines.

 

4. How would you implement congestion pricing in the Bronx and Staten Island (2 places with no standard "CBD nucleus")? BK has 1.5 and Queens has at least 3 "CBD nuclei"?  The bolded, your lack of logic has officially lost me. You can't claim to be unable to understand the correlation I made between park & rides and getting drivers on mass transit while on the topic of congestion pricing, turn around and regurgitate what I said almost verbatim with the additional claim that someone "attacked the concept" and then say "oh well since we're on the topic, we need more" as if it were an original thought. I just said that. Lol there's nothing stopping the Q22/QM16 from a "Breezy Point/B 201 Street" terminal if that's what they wanted. Hell it could go all the way to end at B 227 but then so could people from Far Rockaway....

 

4a. I'm not using the construction as an excuse and I've been a Deegan express bus rider far longer than you to know that in the past they had enough buses on there to justify it once. My point was the Gowanus/LIE/Bruckner/SI all currently have a lot more express buses per hour than the Deegan does. As for the HOV lanes, I don't know the rules (nor have I used any of the Gownaus express routes) but none of them are in the PM and that's when the Deegan would need them most. It is feasible but a HOV lane isn't going to stop E138 from being the choke point or that buses will have difficulty getting across to in the left lane (AM or PM).

 

5. Glad we finally agree on something...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1. The efficiency depends on the standard used... Are we comparing it to other N/E regional bus systems? International systems? At the end of the day it might not be as efficient as it could be but it still moves people 24/7/365 (read it's more than 50% efficient).

 

2/3.  As someone who lives off the local variant of an SBS route, no.  Some people are already walking far enough to get to the bus route,  and the nature of the payment system is exactly why people still flock to the local (try paying for the SBS with change or half-free student metrocard). They already went down the path of on/off-board payment, I don't see a way to consolidate that as you can't have off board everywhere and putting on-board back on SBS = LTD + bus lanes.   So basically Florence has a farebox by each door on the bus itself? I see people here just not paying, a need for more inspectors, which means more delays and unnecessary fines.

 

4. How would you implement congestion pricing in the Bronx and Staten Island (2 places with no standard "CBD nucleus")? BK has 1.5 and Queens has at least 3 "CBD nuclei"?  The bolded, your lack of logic has officially lost me. You can't claim to be unable to understand the correlation I made between park & rides and getting drivers on mass transit while on the topic of congestion pricing, turn around and regurgitate what I said almost verbatim with the additional claim that someone "attacked the concept" and then say "oh well since we're on the topic, we need more" as if it were an original thought. I just said that. Lol there's nothing stopping the Q22/QM16 from a "Breezy Point/B 201 Street" terminal if that's what they wanted. Hell it could go all the way to end at B 227 but then so could people from Far Rockaway....

 

4a. I'm not using the construction as an excuse and I've been a Deegan express bus rider far longer than you to know that in the past they had enough buses on there to justify it once. My point was the Gowanus/LIE/Bruckner/SI all currently have a lot more express buses per hour than the Deegan does. As for the HOV lanes, I don't know the rules (nor have I used any of the Gownaus express routes) but none of them are in the PM and that's when the Deegan would need them most. It is feasible but a HOV lane isn't going to stop E138 from being the choke point or that buses will have difficulty getting across to in the left lane (AM or PM).

 

2/3.  When they switch from Metrocards, the new system should be one that can allow for such a set up.  Having to have those machines at every stop is expensive and a waste of paper.  We need an electronic system.  As for the buses in Florence, yes, there is a machine by each door and you enter whatever door you want, stamp your ticket or your pass and go about your way.

 

4. Excuse me, but apparently you haven't been following along.  I specifically said that I didn't support congestion pricing as is and that we need something that goes much further similar to what is done elsewhere.  Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote previously.

 

4a. To my knowledge, the Gowanus has it both in the morning and evening.  You could use the same HOV lane and perhaps lower the amount of passengers required per vehicle, but having one person per car as I often see on the Deegan is absurd.... I've been contacting Senator Klein's office about it for quite some time, and his office makes up the same BS excuses about how they've talked about that but can't make it happen. I don't buy it.  The Deegan and Cross Bronx both need it desperately.  

[Q43 Floral Park]

2/3.  When they switch from Metrocards, the new system should be one that can allow for such a set up.  Having to have those machines at every stop is expensive and a waste of paper.  We need an electronic system.  As for the buses in Florence, yes, there is a machine by each door and you enter whatever door you want, stamp your ticket or your pass and go about your way.

 

4. Excuse me, but apparently you haven't been following along.  I specifically said that I didn't support congestion pricing as is and that we need something that goes much further similar to what is done elsewhere.  Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote previously.

 

4a. To my knowledge, the Gowanus has it both in the morning and evening.  You could use the same HOV lane and perhaps lower the amount of passengers required per vehicle, but having one person per car as I often see on the Deegan is absurd.... I've been contacting Senator Klein's office about it for quite some time, and his office makes up the same BS excuses about how they've talked about that but can't make it happen. I don't buy it.  The Deegan and Cross Bronx both need it desperately.  

 

 Even if they switch to a tap and go "Charlie card" like system, that's not going to change the fact that SBS has to have off board payment or that paying in exact change will still be a mess. It will stop a couple people from missing the SBS though.. The Florence payment system kind of relies on faith and they already don't trust NYers paying for SBS before boarding. It's bad enough when they hold a SBS bus to check, we can't have someone on every local/LTD and SBS bus to ensure that payments are made. Nope, I'm following along. It doesn't change that congestion pricing in any form, won't work without more park & rides and not just in areas with trash public transportation. DOT only has AM hours on the site.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 The Florence payment system kind of relies on faith...

Not kind of. It does.  The other option would be to stop accepting cash entirely, but that would cause even more of an uproar.  I mean hell you soon won't be able to pay with cash anymore with the tolls so why not...