London’s getting rid of all-door boarding. Should MTA go forward with it?

[Deucey]

No paywall: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/10/fare-dodging-forces-closure-of-rear-doors-on-new-routemaster-bus

I rode these on the 15 bus in London in November, and I saw more fare evasion in the City than I did in Tower Hamlets. Currently, whenever I ride the M15 SBS, I see a lot of folks on the UES and Midtown ignore the ticket machines and just get on. (I “ignore” it at South Ferry since a lot of tourists are confused.)

TfL has Oyster (OMNY) scanners are each door, and people can swipe or tap credit cards to get on. But many didn’t. Even now with OMNY on SI, I still see people walk right on by with no tap or no MetroCard dip on the buses.

So it has me wondering if the speeding up service by all-door boarding is worth the revenue loss - given that 1)  is (claiming) broke, and 2) it could exacerbate the fare evasion problem we (may) currently have.

What say you?

[bobtehpanda]

9 minutes ago, Deucey said:

No paywall: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/10/fare-dodging-forces-closure-of-rear-doors-on-new-routemaster-bus

I rode these on the 15 bus in London in November, and I saw more fare evasion in the City than I did in Tower Hamlets. Currently, whenever I ride the M15 SBS, I see a lot of folks on the UES and Midtown ignore the ticket machines and just get on. (I “ignore” it at South Ferry since a lot of tourists are confused.)

TfL has Oyster (OMNY) scanners are each door, and people can swipe or tap credit cards to get on. But many didn’t. Even now with OMNY on SI, I still see people walk right on by with no tap or no MetroCard dip on the buses.

So it has me wondering if the speeding up service by all-door boarding is worth the revenue loss - given that 1)  is (claiming) broke, and 2) it could exacerbate the fare evasion problem we (may) currently have.

What say you?

Muni went all-door a couple years ago and had bus speeds rise and evasion stay flat/fall. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2015/03/why-buses-should-let-you-board-through-any-door-in-2-charts/387739/

Keep in mind that even if revenues were to potentially decrease, the MTA might save more money by decreasing runtimes and reducing the amount of service hours needed to run the same frequencies. Also, my personal experience in Europe is that you generally do not need to tap if you have valid monthly passes. 

[bobtehpanda]

I'd also like to point out that it's not like drivers currently enforce fares anyways, so I don't think it would make the problem much worse on the routes where it is already a problem.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

The civil liberties people will argue that the MTA has no legal right to close off the back door because, even though the act of fare evasion is illegal, the physical ability to evade the fare is a Constitutionally protected right. (They argued the same thing when the MetroCard turnstiles were first installed.)

[Around the Horn]

I heard London has issues with getting inspectors around to check fares paid. The huge third door on the New Routemasters (thank you Boris Johnson) doesn't help either.

[Deucey]

5 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Muni went all-door a couple years ago and had bus speeds rise and evasion stay flat/fall. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2015/03/why-buses-should-let-you-board-through-any-door-in-2-charts/387739/

Keep in mind that even if revenues were to potentially decrease, the MTA might save more money by decreasing runtimes and reducing the amount of service hours needed to run the same frequencies. Also, my personal experience in Europe is that you generally do not need to tap if you have valid monthly passes. 

Didn’t ride the bus in Paris - only the Metro, but I had an unlimited two-zone in London that had to be tapped every time I got on a bus.

DLR was interesting since the tap pads are not necessarily in the most conspicuous spots in the mezzanine, so I both wonder how much they lose on the DLR and why it’s a problem on Routemaster buses but not on DLR.

[Deucey]

2 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I heard London has issues with getting inspectors around to check fares paid. The huge third door on the New Routemasters (thank you Boris Johnson) doesn't help either.

Didn’t see a single one on any of the Routemasters or DLR trains I took. Makes little sense since both are tap-in honor systems, and both are franchised, but only Routemasters are “problematic”.

[Italianstallion]

51 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

The civil liberties people will argue that the MTA has no legal right to close off the back door because, even though the act of fare evasion is illegal, the physical ability to evade the fare is a Constitutionally protected right. (They argued the same thing when the MetroCard turnstiles were first installed.)

I call bullshit on your point.

[ViaWaterViaChurch]

With the MTA claiming to be broke along with the new campaign to decrease fare-beating, I don't see how it would be a good idea for the MTA to proceed with all-door boarding unless they want to just admit that fare-beating doesn't really matter much when it comes to the overall operations budget.  By getting rid of the bus driver watching you dip a card, there will only be more of an incentive not to pay.   The problem is only going to get worse if you take away more and more deterrents and let people go on the honor system.  OMNY isn't going to bring in more revenue because it doesn't address the problem of fare-beating.  People don't fare-beat because it's too inconvenient to pay the fare, they do it because they either can't afford it or don't respect the ethics of society. 

[Deucey]

@ViaWaterViaChurch, I just rode S44 from SI Mall to my apartment in St George, and at the stop at the north of the mall, and again at the stop at the Stop & Shop by the SIE, there were enough people getting on where people reached their hands through the rear door’s rubber to try hitting the yellow bars to get them opened.

They failed.

Yet when they got on through the front, not a single one dipped a MetroCard or even put a nickel in the fare box.

And from the days when I rode the Bx12 SBS, and now when riding the M15 SBS (as I mentioned earlier), plenty of people get on without getting a fare receipt.

I doubt the majority fare jump because they can’t afford it.

Hence my question - should  move forward with this knowing that all door boarding may result in more of it? Only @bobtehpanda gave a salient “yes” answer and explanation.

[SevenEleven]

6 hours ago, Deucey said:

@ViaWaterViaChurch, I just rode S44 from SI Mall to my apartment in St George, and at the stop at the north of the mall, and again at the stop at the Stop & Shop by the SIE, there were enough people getting on where people reached their hands through the rear door’s rubber to try hitting the yellow bars to get them opened.

They failed.

Yet when they got on through the front, not a single one dipped a MetroCard or even put a nickel in the fare box.

I doubt the majority fare jump because they can’t afford it.

Hence my question - should  move forward with this knowing that all door boarding may result in more of it? Only @bobtehpanda gave a salient “yes” answer and explanation.

You still out here on the island? I spent last pick on the 52 and thought you dipped already.

People don't pay, they know there's no consequences. Just like the bail reform. They act like the driver don't exist, they don't know how to open their mouths, no common sense, none of that. But when you tell them about themselves, they either look at you stupid or get mad that you got mad. There should be zero excuse why you walking on the bus after shopping at Gucci at the mall and walking right past the farebox. ZERO

Was on the 46, stopped at a red light, two cars between me and the crosswalk where the bus stop was. Bell wasn't rung up to this point. (So the stop is already a done deal) Bell goes off, so I hit the back door. Kid comes from the back of the bus, past the door, to the front, so maybe he wanted the next stop. He hovers over the front, not one word till I roll thru the intersection. "oh wait, I'm getting off here."

Long story short, I said my piece, he had that dumb look on his face and he was the only one walking back to his stop.

[Deucey]

7 hours ago, SevenEleven said:

You still out here on the island? I spent last pick on the 52 and thought you dipped already.

Still here, unfortunately.  Why’d you get off the express bus runs?

[SevenEleven]

9 hours ago, Deucey said:

Still here, unfortunately.  Why’d you get off the express bus runs?

Needed something with a schedule last pick, I was getting whooped working the list over the summer. 

Worked out tho, because fall pick for express was murder.

[SoSpectacular]

On 1/12/2020 at 2:35 AM, SevenEleven said:

You still out here on the island? I spent last pick on the 52 and thought you dipped already.

People don't pay, they know there's no consequences. Just like the bail reform. They act like the driver don't exist, they don't know how to open their mouths, no common sense, none of that. But when you tell them about themselves, they either look at you stupid or get mad that you got mad. There should be zero excuse why you walking on the bus after shopping at Gucci at the mall and walking right past the farebox. ZERO

Was on the 46, stopped at a red light, two cars between me and the crosswalk where the bus stop was. Bell wasn't rung up to this point. (So the stop is already a done deal) Bell goes off, so I hit the back door. Kid comes from the back of the bus, past the door, to the front, so maybe he wanted the next stop. He hovers over the front, not one word till I roll thru the intersection. "oh wait, I'm getting off here."

Long story short, I said my piece, he had that dumb look on his face and he was the only one walking back to his stop.

The best part is having someone board your bus, tell you they don't have the fare AND there's a subway station at your terminal. Like really?

[Brillant93]

All door boarding isn’t really about having people pay their fare but keeping buses from dwelling at stops. When everyone is paying through one door it only makes the bus slow because the more time it takes for people to pay upfront one by one. If transit agencies are going to get people to pay their fares their going to have to enforce it. You can’t really expect bus drivers to have people pay when everyone in NYC is all about getting to where they gotta go. A bus operator holds a bus up for a non paying passenger it’s gonna put them at risk of being harmed. People here are crazy enough to take their frustrations out on others so the only logical thing is to have policemen do it but then peopel would say it’s profiling if they do. 
 

if the MTA does want to get people to pay they should introduce a point or reward system where people will earn free rides or monthly passes if they pay. Like Uber or Lyft where people spend money on rides they get discounts and so on. 

[Rafa]

Put all doors boarding on the animal lines and if right now fare payment on those lines are about 30% it will drop to under 10%.

[N6 Limited]

On 1/14/2020 at 12:16 AM, SoSpectacular said:

The best part is having someone board your bus, tell you they don't have the fare AND there's a subway station at your terminal. Like really?

They're probably turnstile jumpers. Although, maybe they just need to get to the subway station to add money to their metrocard.

On 1/14/2020 at 4:41 PM, Brillant93 said:

All door boarding isn’t really about having people pay their fare but keeping buses from dwelling at stops. When everyone is paying through one door it only makes the bus slow because the more time it takes for people to pay upfront one by one. If transit agencies are going to get people to pay their fares their going to have to enforce it. You can’t really expect bus drivers to have people pay when everyone in NYC is all about getting to where they gotta go. A bus operator holds a bus up for a non paying passenger it’s gonna put them at risk of being harmed. People here are crazy enough to take their frustrations out on others so the only logical thing is to have policemen do it but then peopel would say it’s profiling if they do. 
 

if the MTA does want to get people to pay they should introduce a point or reward system where people will earn free rides or monthly passes if they pay. Like Uber or Lyft where people spend money on rides they get discounts and so on. 

That would be an interesting reward system, though, Uber/Lyft have user's payment information and automatically charge you for use. So, even with an award system like that from the MTA, it's still cheaper for fare beaters to not pay the fare. 

 

[Around the Horn]

3 hours ago, Rafa said:

Put all doors boarding on the animal lines and if right now fare payment on those lines are about 30% it will drop to under 10%.

They'll start paying when they get inspected...

And now that buses are getting delivered with automated passenger counters (APCs), you can deploy inspectors to specific buses where the farebox count and APC count don't match in real time (if they're smart about it of course).

[aemoreira81]

For what it's worth, Vancouver (TransLink, all bus routes) has been all-door boarding since 2007. They are the largest mass transit bus system in Canada outside of the Quebec City-Windsor corridor. I don't see why the MTA can't do so (express buses excluded).