April 2020 bus changes: B1 conversion to articulated buses

[Brillant93]

This thread went from the B1 becoming artic to school trippers. 

[Lawrence St]

7 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

This thread went from the B1 becoming artic to school trippers. 

That's why I created the school tripper thread...

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

31 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Didnt the Q69 use to go all the way to the ferry terminal on the east river? Or am I confusing the two?

It was a completely different Q69 route. IIRC, it was free, and connected Hunterspoint Ave & Vernon-Jackson station with the ferry. The Q103 also ran to the ferry. Both were discontinued in the early 2000s.

Edited January 21, 2020 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Cait Sith]

40 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

This thread went from the B1 becoming artic to school trippers. 

And you're not helping with this post.

 

32 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

That's why I created the school tripper thread...

That's what the Random Thoughts thread is for.

[EastFlatbushLarry]

5 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Beach Channel HS and JHS 180 (aka Rockaway Beach). According to google maps, the Q21 makes those stops along Cross Bay.

thank you for that. i assumed one school was in fact Beach Channel HS, but I wasn't sure if they broke it up into campuses with different names like they did flushing hs or South shore hs.

 

4 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

Word is that the B1 WILL be retained at Ulmer Park

and here it goes. not to stir the proverbial shit (and FURTHER derail this topic), but if this holds true, hopefully people realize what this eventually means for everyone's "favorite" Ulmer Park line, the B6... throw away everything you thought you knew about DOB. different era, folks.

I truly hope there's a legitimate reason why the B1 was chosen for artics first... and as someone pointed out, they'll be burning the midnight oil to get this going, why the sudden urgency? 

Edited January 21, 2020 by EastFlatbushLarry

[Cait Sith]

9 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

thank you for that. i assumed one school was in fact Beach Channel HS, but I wasn't sure if they broke it up into campuses with different names like they did flushing hs or South shore hs.

 

and here it goes. not to stir the proverbial shit, but if this holds true, hopefully people realize what this eventually means for everyone's "favorite" Ulmer Park line, the B6... throw away everything you thought you knew about DOB. different era, folks

If it does hold true, I do want to know how the hell are they going to prep the depot for artics within 3 and a half months....and how are they going to manage with those buses INSIDE the depot?? I've heard complaints about there being tight spaces for the express buses to navigate through, I can only imagine the difficulties the artics will bring.

And then comes the age old question of where are these buses going to come from to all go to UP!? If they pick them out from The Bronx, they'd have to pick carefully as they'd lose roughly 25-30 or so artics, and that would cause problems if The Bronx doesn't get anything else back.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Cait Sith

[EastFlatbushLarry]

4 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

If it does hold true, I do want to know how the hell are they going to prep the depot for artics within 3 and a half months....and how are they going to manage with those buses INSIDE the depot?? I've heard complaints about there being tight spaces for the express buses to navigate through, I can only imagine the difficulties the artics will bring.

And then comes the age old question of where are these buses going to come from to all go to UP!? If they pick them out from The Bronx, they'd have to pick carefully as they'd lose roughly 25-30 or so artics, and that would cause problems if The Bronx doesn't get anything else back.

AMEN. i added onto my previous post, where I'm inquiring into the "sudden urgency" for this to manifest itself... over any other line in UP or bk period, the B1 tho? as you stated, where are will these artics materialize from? also, as stated, that building is already packed sardine can airtight on a good day, how many more buses will utilize street/curbside parking in that area? people swore up & down that Flatbush with artics would be a blight on the community... artics at Ulmer Park? with Prevosts? i guess cropsey will be a parking lot from 26 Avenue on

[Lex]

17 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

AMEN. i added onto my previous post, where I'm inquiring into the "sudden urgency" for this to manifest itself... over any other line in UP or bk period, the B1 tho? as you stated, where are will these artics materialize from? also, as stated, that building is already packed sardine can airtight on a good day, how many more buses will utilize street/curbside parking in that area? people swore up & down that Flatbush with artics would be a blight on the community... artics at Ulmer Park? with Prevosts? i guess cropsey will be a parking lot from 26 Avenue on

Out of sheer curiosity, how difficult would it be to retrofit certain depots with multi-story garages? I think depots like Flatbush and Ulmer Park could benefit from them, especially when facing situations like this.

45 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

and here it goes. not to stir the proverbial shit (and FURTHER derail this topic), but if this holds true, hopefully people realize what this eventually means for everyone's "favorite" Ulmer Park line, the B6... throw away everything you thought you knew about DOB. different era, folks.

I can't help but wonder about that...

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

Yeah once buses weren't getting delivered in sequence with depots having a certain consecutive batch, I knew the DOB was full of ish and incompetent. 

What if the B3, B64 and B74 end up going to JG or FB? Would that free up the depot and routes without putting to much strain on another depot? 

 

I can definitely see the rest of the BX 4700s going to Ulmer. My thing is, there's depots with excessive artic buses (FB should send those LFSAs to the Bronx) they really don't need them. I just pased Flatbush around 5:30 and there's like 7-8 XD60s in the depot that are visible from a quick drive by...even with both routes already articulated and its rush hour. CS also has extra XD60s, they only need 5987-6029. I also don't think WF needs all those artics too. Also Quill and JFK are waiting for a few more buses so that'll free up. There's definitely enough buses some buses just have an excessive spare factor. If maintenance did their job perfectly all around the system they wouldn't need so many spare buses. 

[Brillant93]

Maybe since the Bronx redesign is happening some artic routes is going to go back to being standards? Just my theory. 

[Lex]

32 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

Yeah once buses weren't getting delivered in sequence with depots having a certain consecutive batch, I knew the DOB was full of ish and incompetent.

That's your metric?

[Q43LTD]

Something tells me that the B6 may go to Flatbush or East New York 

[Brillant93]

12 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

Something tells me that the B6 may go to Flatbush or East New York 

Very, very, very, unlikely. This B1 artic thing came out of left field. What should have happened was that there have been trippers on the B1 during the weekdays from JG or FB depot. 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

1 hour ago, Lex said:

Out of sheer curiosity, how difficult would it be to retrofit certain depots with multi-story garages? I think depots like Flatbush and Ulmer Park could benefit from them, especially when facing situations like this.

if my memory serves me correctly, it took DOB almost 2 years before they even began retrofitting Flatbush for artics. it was never necessarily about height clearance. it was about the fuel line & mechanics bays needing room. now my theory is that the ONLY way Ulmer Park can adequately accommodate artics with a full proof plan & schematics in & around the depot is if they've already been working on it this entire time. possibly this is why the East NY "rehab" so to speak has been delayed. I'm not speaking from a place of knowledge on how this time line could be on such a rapid pace, it's purely speculation.

as far as turning a depot like flatbush or UP into multi floor complexes (I'm assuming you mean like 100 street, Hale & Grand Avenue) my belief is that there would be no way for the depot to remain in passenger service. the depot would have to be torn down & rebuilt. i don't believe building codes would permit vertical add ons to facilities like depots/garages. my issue as far as flatbush becoming a larger facility has been is there any way for them to "take advantage" of Floyd Bennett Field? DSNY is out there. the NYPD & FDNY (i believe) are out there. the state of NY can't utilize any of that space? 

38 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Maybe since the Bronx redesign is happening some artic routes is going to go back to being standards? Just my theory. 

I'm glad you brought that up actually, because if/when the redesign goes into effect, the first line(s) i thought would lose artics were the bx4/4a. that's just where my mind went.. I could be wrong, but i definitely believe bronx artics will be available. however, that won't be until September of this year. the artics for the B1 would allegedly be available by april (spring pick) 

Edited January 22, 2020 by EastFlatbushLarry

[EastFlatbushLarry]

18 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

Something tells me that the B6 may go to Flatbush or East New York 

eh. I don't know about all that. logistically, it'd make more sense to split it between east ny & UP, but Ulmer Park bitched & moaned about Flatbush Depot having the rockaway parkway or Ralph Avenue to Nostrand runs for years until they got those runs some time ago. they also complained their way out of half of the 82 back in the day after the B5 & B50 were combined. my point is, Ulmer Park is extremely particular about the B6. that's their bread & butter on the run boards, RDO's & run pay, period. that won't happen (at least until the Brooklyn redesign occurs, which i am almost certain they'll be pulling a combo wipe the slate clean/tweak what's already in place, which will mean all lines/runs will be reassigned/modified) 

[Future ENY OP]

46 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

Yeah once buses weren't getting delivered in sequence with depots having a certain consecutive batch, I knew the DOB was full of ish and incompetent. 

What if the B3, B64 and B74 end up going to JG or FB? Would that free up the depot and routes without putting to much strain on another depot? 

 

I can definitely see the rest of the BX 4700s going to Ulmer. My thing is, there's depots with excessive artic buses (FB should send those LFSAs to the Bronx) they really don't need them. I just pased Flatbush around 5:30 and there's like 7-8 XD60s in the depot that are visible from a quick drive by...even with both routes already articulated and its rush hour. CS also has extra XD60s, they only need 5987-6029. I also don't think WF needs all those artics too. Also Quill and JFK are waiting for a few more buses so that'll free up. There's definitely enough buses some buses just have an excessive spare factor. If maintenance did their job perfectly all around the system they wouldn't need so many spare buses. 

There’s something called spares. Each depot need a set of spares. Flatbush doesn’t need to send any more buses to The Bronx nor to Manhattan and Stengel doesn’t need to send buses out. 

[Interested Rider]

If a depot is to have any major changes done such as UP, does it not have to appear in the MTA minutes?

Had it appeared there, someone would have reported it here and we would have discussed it. I could be wrong but I do not remember reading about any UP depot changes here.

 

[Jdog14]

2 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

 

 

I can definitely see the rest of the BX 4700s going to Ulmer. My thing is, there's depots with excessive artic buses (FB should send those LFSAs to the Bronx) they really don't need them. I just pased Flatbush around 5:30 and there's like 7-8 XD60s in the depot that are visible from a quick drive by...even with both routes already articulated and its rush hour. CS also has extra XD60s, they only need 5987-6029. I also don't think WF needs all those artics too. Also Quill and JFK are waiting for a few more buses so that'll free up. There's definitely enough buses some buses just have an excessive spare factor. If maintenance did their job perfectly all around the system they wouldn't need so many spare buses. 

 

Wit the way Flatbush buses get into accidents with all these foolish dollar vans all over the place, its best they keep those artics. Those LFSAs also aren't extra's. They sen't 5300s in exchange. 

[aemoreira81]

On 1/18/2020 at 9:37 AM, Q43LTD said:

This is interesting. I always thought the B6 would get articulateds before the B1. It's not the B6 doesn't have draws too on the route. And then there's the Brooklyn Redesign...

The B6 is a route that needs frequency more than capacity; that may be a major determinant as to what gets artics or not. As for where I see the buses coming from...I'll go out on a limb and say LaGuardia and JFK, with the B1 and B44 sharing a fleet at Flatbush (I see the B1 shifting to Flatbush). That extra 53-bus order for MTA Bus is nearly complete, freeing up those remaining 6000s and 6100s to be moved.

As for routes---this is what would make the most sense:

B1 -- Ulmer Park to Flatbush

B46 (SBS only) -- Flatbush to East New York (common fleet with B82 SBS)

B82 (Local only) -- East New York to Ulmer Park

This would give the B46 Local and SBS and B82 Local and SBS different garage assignments, but the M15 Local and SBS are already that way (M15 SBS from Mother Hale, M15 Local from Tuskegee Airmen). The B46 SBS run-on and run-offs would shift to the Bed Stuy end, while the B82 Local shifts its run-ons and run-offs from Spring Creek Towers to Coney Island/Bensonhurst.

To put the B1 at Gleason would require a lot more complex moves likely leaving Bronx Division short on articulated buses.

 

(Related question: are the B1 and B49 allowed to use the Belt for run-ons and run-offs?)

Edited January 22, 2020 by aemoreira81

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

There’s something called spares. Each depot need a set of spares. Flatbush doesn’t need to send any more buses to The Bronx nor to Manhattan and Stengel doesn’t need to send buses out. 

I know what spares are...next time read the entire post. I was trying to get at depots having EXCESSIVE spare factors. Do you understand this time? 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

2 hours ago, Interested Rider said:

If a depot is to have any major changes done such as UP, does it not have to appear in the MTA minutes?

Had it appeared there, someone would have reported it here and we would have discussed it. I could be wrong but I do not remember reading about any UP depot changes here.

 

i agree 100%. i believe at one point there was a list of depots that were up for certain slight mods... window replacements here, HVAC system replacement there, etc. i believe Ulmer Park was on that list alongside FP, JG & others. i don't remember the details in exact fashion but, some of the fine print when placed in the minutes can be rather easy to gloss over or miss completely. you're not wrong in any stretch. 

 

24 minutes ago, aemoreira81 said:

are the B1 and B49 allowed to use the Belt for run-ons and run-offs?

49's pull in from foster & flatbush or avenue S short signs. the avenue S operators usually follow the B2 as a run off. 49's & 44's aren't allowed to utilize the Belt. i believe the same holds true for the B1 currently. not entirely sure. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

I know what spares are...next time read the entire post. I was trying to get at depots having EXCESSIVE spare factors. Do you understand this time? 

How do you know they are excessive, and why do you care so much anyway? I speak with people on the inside. You can go from having what looks like an excessive amount of spares to having barely enough buses to make service. Have a few accidents and let maintenance get backed up and that can happen fast. Without naming the depots, there’s one that I know for a fact operates some nights with barely enough buses. Scary in fact. With what I have been privy to, I can tell you that the  knows who has what and gets reports on how many buses are out to be repaired and all of that. In short, what looks like excess may not be.

[EastFlatbushLarry]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

How do you know they are excessive, and why do you care so much anyway? I speak with people on the inside. You can go from having what looks like an excessive amount of spares to having barely enough buses to make service. Have a few accidents and let maintenance get backed up and that can happen fast. Without naming the depots, there’s one that I know for a fact operates some nights with barely enough buses. Scary in fact. With what I have been privy to, I can tell you that the  knows who has what and gets reports on how many buses are out to be repaired and all of that. In short, what looks like excess may not be.

THANK YOU vg8 😂 from personal experience, I'll name a depot that has constantly fallen into this category: KINGSBRIDGE. the D60HF's that were here in years past (the high 52xx's) always caused the twilight zone effect day to day. another depot, 100 street has been "short" for almost a decade for a similar reason. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, EastFlatbushLarry said:

THANK YOU vg8 😂 from personal experience, I'll name a depot that has constantly fallen into this category: KINGSBRIDGE. the D60HF's that were here in years past (the high 52xx's) always caused the twilight zone effect day to day. another depot, 100 street has been "short" for almost a decade for a similar reason. 

One day I was privy to some information without being too particular, but it was pretty crazy the amount of the buses that were out for repair. The other thing is sometimes buses will be reported as “fixed” when they have to be pulled AGAIN for the same problem. Given that some depots are better than others with maintenance, you have situations where buses are sent to other depots to help out. Hell College Point is a good example. They get really backed up sometimes and send express buses elsewhere. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

THANK YOU vg8 😂 from personal experience, I'll name a depot that has constantly fallen into this category: KINGSBRIDGE. the D60HF's that were here in years past (the high 52xx's) always caused the twilight zone effect day to day. another depot, 100 street has been "short" for almost a decade for a similar reason. 

OMG Kingsbridge is horrible... I have seen some of their buses in badddd shape... That’s another issue. You have some depots with really crappy maintenance and believe me word gets out. The depots with better maintenance have to clean up the slack. Hell we have been sent some express buses from Spring Creek that are garbage. Yonkers Depot does a great job overall for a small depot. Most things are reported and fixed ASAP, but every depot is different.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8