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Yankees4life

MTA is working on that pesky Junius-Livonia connection

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https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-livonia-junius-transfer-capital-plan-mta-subway-20200119-tfyt55g4lzbl3j6i5ce6uswrw4-story.html

MTA to finally connect two Brooklyn subway stations where riders were double-charged for a century

Clayton Guse

For decades straphangers looking to transfer from the Livonia Avenue L subway stop to the Janius Street #3 Subway stop, have been forced to exit the turnstiles walk along the street and a pedestrian overpass before swiping again to switch trains. (Jesse Ward/for New York Daily News)

The MTA is ready to finally fix a decades-old double-charge for straphangers who transfer between two intersecting Brooklyn subway stations, making good on a 5-year-old promise.

Riders who switch between the Livonia Ave. L station and the Junius St. No. 3 stop must exit the turnstiles at one station, walk along an outdoor elevated path, then down stairs to cross a city a street, and then back up a set of stairs before swiping through the turnstiles at the other end.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s new $51.5 billion capital plan earmarks $38.4 million to connect the two stations, which are less than 1,000 feet apart, under a single enclosed facility. The agency also plans to spend millions more to make the new mega-station accessible.

“They should have done this in the ’80s,” said straphanger Johnny Walker, who uses the transfer regularly. ”This whole thing is based on greed over progress."

Transit planners budgeted $30 million for the same “connector” project in the agency’s 2015-2019 capital plan, along with another $15 million for a set of elevators at the stations.

The MTA only spent $400,000 of that money for “pre-design activities,” said MTA spokesman Tim Minton. The construction of the project was rolled over into the agency’s 2020-2024 capital plan — with a 28% cost increase.

Riders who use the transfer have had some relief over the past nine months as part of the ongoing construction on the L line.

The MTA reprogrammed the turnstiles at the two stations to allow for a free transfer, just as is available at the much wealthier Upper East Side’s 59th and 63rd St. stations.

But MTA officials haven’t yet decided whether the free transfers will continue until the connector project is finished.

Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams wasn’t surprised the MTA continued to collect two fares from riders with pay-per-ride MetroCards years after they initially promised to build the free connection.

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“The commuters of Brownsville and East New York who rely on these stations deserve greater transparency from the MTA, and we should not be kept in the dark about these improvements,” said Adams. He wants the agency to extend the free transfer, and even consider other free transfers throughout the subway system.

Some riders who spoke with the Daily News thought the agency had abandoned its plans after the years of delays.

“It (the stations) should have been built like that from day one,” said Maurice Miller, 37, who lives in Brownsville near the stations. “Better late than never, but I wish they done this years ago.”

The strange layout is a product of the subway’s history of private ownership. The New Lots Line that now carries the No. 3 and No. 4 lines was opened by the Interborough Rapid Transit Company in 1920. The stretch of L train tracks in the area dates back to the 19th century, and they were later operated by the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company.

Andrew Albert, the rider advocate on the MTA board, said the new station “rights a very long time wrong.”

“It’s great that it’s going to be an enclosed pathway. It’s dark there at night,” said Albert. “There are a lot of people I expect will be using this transfer.”

Edited by Yankees4life
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"This whole thing is based on greed over progress" what is he talking about? The reason why the connection wasnt built back then was because of the competition between the IRT and the BMT.

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12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

"This whole thing is based on greed over progress" what is he talking about? The reason why the connection wasnt built back then was because of the competition between the IRT and the BMT.

Right:

And even afterwards, it was not looked at as important.  I used to ride through there to get to school in the '80s and always wondered why they never thought to do it. 

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On 1/21/2020 at 6:39 AM, Lawrence St said:

"This whole thing is based on greed over progress" what is he talking about? The reason why the connection wasnt built back then was because of the competition between the IRT and the BMT.

Greed and/or pride do beget competition. The desire for territory, money, or victory could all be manifestations of greed and/or pride. It could also be argued that even pride is a form of greed.

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On 1/21/2020 at 4:24 PM, Wallyhorse said:

Right:

And even afterwards, it was not looked at as important.  I used to ride through there to get to school in the '80s and always wondered why they never thought to do it. 

They probably thought the journey was too "local" and anyone doing it could just use a bus to connect between the two areas; neither stop is too far from the end of its line. Outer borough employment has never been higher than in recent times, so there was less of a need.

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Seems like the MTA will have to build an additional entrance at the east end of the Junius station to be able to establish a connection with the (L)
 

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On 1/21/2020 at 6:39 AM, Lawrence St said:

"This whole thing is based on greed over progress" what is he talking about? The reason why the connection wasnt built back then was because of the competition between the IRT and the BMT.

The Station's Physical Structure hasn't changed in over a century. Rather than demolish and rebuild everything by the railyard, MTA just did nothing with the property. 

The MTA doesn't even want to program a transfer between the (L) and the (3) for East New York and Canarsie Residents.

Is Brownsville Haunted by the Mother Gaston or something?

Edited by NY1635
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On 1/21/2020 at 6:39 AM, Lawrence St said:

"This whole thing is based on greed over progress" what is he talking about? The reason why the connection wasnt built back then was because of the competition between the IRT and the BMT.

What the quote actually is:

On 1/20/2020 at 11:03 PM, Yankees4life said:

“They should have done this in the ’80s,” said straphanger Johnny Walker, who uses the transfer regularly. ”This whole thing is based on greed over progress."

 

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For those of us who actually remember the Junius Street station back in the prehistoric era the namesake entrance was demolished when the flyover to Linden Yard was constructed. The present entrance is two blocks away from Junius St to the west. In other words if you're older or the weather is bad or you have children in tow the connection is a pain in the keister. It may look logical looking at a subway map but climbing up to the Bay Ridge Branch overpass, crossing it, then down to street level, walking westward to the station staircase and climbing up to the booth and up to the platforms is no joke. My early childhood was spent in the Van Dyke and I've had a bus or subway pass for half my life and I personally have made that trek maybe 15 times in my lifetime. If I'm coming from Rockaway Parkway-Glenwood the B60 bus to Livonia makes more sense for the (3) or  (4) , IMO. If I'm coming from New Lots  or Pennsylvania, the B15, B20, and B83 will give me access to the (L) without using said transfer. There’s this big station at Broadway-East New York that the B20 and B83 stop at that has many connections while that B15 stops at the New Lots (L) station. Nice to have a new transfer but it's not really a gamechanger for many folks. Just my opinion. YMMV. Carry on.

Edited by Trainmaster5
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5 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

@Yankees4life 

I was trying to point out easier transfer options for many people. That’s all.

I guess but the connection either way will be useful regardless

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I would imagine (hope) that before embarking on such a project like this connection, MTA conducted a survey to determine how many people would actually use such transfer.  If the transfer is particularly difficult, it may make more sense for people to use the bus connections (and/or a third train) to get where they are going, instead of transferring here.

Then again, a transfer here may be more useful than simply determining how people will make their inbound commute.  If some kind of improved service along the Atlantic branch of the LIRR were to happen (after ESA, more frequent Brooklyn-Jamaica runs, especially if the transfer were free), I could see a lot of (3) riders, up and down the line transferring to (L) in order to reach the fast train to Dntn Brooklyn or Jamaica.  I don't think the tansfers would necessarily be limited to folks coming from the parts of (L) east of Livonia or the parts of (3) east of Junius.

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2 hours ago, mrsman said:

Then again, a transfer here may be more useful than simply determining how people will make their inbound commute.  If some kind of improved service along the Atlantic branch of the LIRR were to happen (after ESA, more frequent Brooklyn-Jamaica runs, especially if the transfer were free), I could see a lot of (3) riders, up and down the line transferring to (L) in order to reach the fast train to Dntn Brooklyn or Jamaica.  I don't think the tansfers would necessarily be limited to folks coming from the parts of (L) east of Livonia or the parts of (3) east of Junius.

I wonder just how much time that would save. It’s 2 transfers to/from the LIRR and requires some substantial walking effort from the commuters. And Atlantic Terminal can’t be the destination for most commuters. Most of them would be making 3 transfers to get into the city.

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17 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

For those of us who actually remember the Junius Street station back in the prehistoric era the namesake entrance was demolished when the flyover to Linden Yard was constructed. The present entrance is two blocks away from Junius St to the west. In other words if you're older or the weather is bad or you have children in tow the connection is a pain in the keister. It may look logical looking at a subway map but climbing up to the Bay Ridge Branch overpass, crossing it, then down to street level, walking westward to the station staircase and climbing up to the booth and up to the platforms is no joke. My early childhood was spent in the Van Dyke and I've had a bus or subway pass for half my life and I personally have made that trek maybe 15 times in my lifetime. If I'm coming from Rockaway Parkway-Glenwood the B60 bus to Livonia makes more sense for the (3) or  (4) , IMO. If I'm coming from New Lots  or Pennsylvania, the B15, B20, and B83 will give me access to the (L) without using said transfer. There’s this big station at Broadway-East New York that the B20 and B83 stop at that has many connections while that B15 stops at the New Lots (L) station. Nice to have a new transfer but it's not really a gamechanger for many folks. Just my opinion. YMMV. Carry on.

Folks in Spring Creek, yeah.... However, I don't see folks in Canarsie, south of Flatlands av. really sharing that sentiment.... Good chance they'd chomp at the bit to get to the IRT quicker, if that "pesky connection" (lol) was more tolerable/feasible for riders to make....

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Folks in Spring Creek, yeah.... However, I don't see folks in Canarsie, south of Flatlands av. really sharing that sentiment.... Good chance they'd chomp at the bit to get to the IRT quicker, if that "pesky connection" (lol) was more tolerable/feasible for riders to make....

It still puzzles me why doesn't the (MTA) give free transfers via Metrocard after all these years but then again MTA is gonna MTA...

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3 hours ago, Yankees4life said:

It still puzzles me why doesn't the (MTA) give free transfers via Metrocard after all these years but then again MTA is gonna MTA...

They're so worried about losing revenue for useful trips and transfers that people simply jump the turnstiles instead, LOL good job MTA.

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9 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

They're so worried about losing revenue for useful trips and transfers that people simply jump the turnstiles instead, LOL good job MTA.

it’s not like anyone pays at Livonia anyways 

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5 hours ago, Yankees4life said:

It still puzzles me why doesn't the (MTA) give free transfers via Metrocard after all these years but then again MTA is gonna MTA...

Because when has the MTA ever cared about disadvantaged neighborhoods?

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5 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Because when has the MTA ever cared about disadvantaged neighborhoods?

And that's why I said MTA is gonna MTA :D

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18 hours ago, Maxwell179 said:

it’s not like anyone pays at Livonia anyways 

What caused you to jump to that conclusion? 

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On 1/26/2020 at 11:06 AM, CenSin said:

I wonder just how much time that would save. It’s 2 transfers to/from the LIRR and requires some substantial walking effort from the commuters. And Atlantic Terminal can’t be the destination for most commuters. Most of them would be making 3 transfers to get into the city.

I wasn't thinking necessarily of LIRR towards Atlantic, as you correctly note the extra transfers may not be worth it.  (3) goes directly there and continues to Manhattan.  And of course, one can also transfer to (4) at Utica.

But what about using the LIRR tracks to reverse commute, to Jamaica, JFK, and areas east.  Granted, these areas aren't as big of job generators as Manhattan, but if you are heading to the LIRR and you live along the (3) line somewhere east of Utica, you will use that transfer t o (L)  to reach LIRR.  (If you are west of Utica, you will probably make your way to Nostrand Ave station or Atlantic station, even though you are heading east, overall.)

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43 minutes ago, mrsman said:

I wasn't thinking necessarily of LIRR towards Atlantic, as you correctly note the extra transfers may not be worth it.  (3) goes directly there and continues to Manhattan.  And of course, one can also transfer to (4) at Utica.

But what about using the LIRR tracks to reverse commute, to Jamaica, JFK, and areas east.  Granted, these areas aren't as big of job generators as Manhattan, but if you are heading to the LIRR and you live along the (3) line somewhere east of Utica, you will use that transfer t o (L)  to reach LIRR.  (If you are west of Utica, you will probably make your way to Nostrand Ave station or Atlantic station, even though you are heading east, overall.)

I have an idea that plays off of one that others have expressed, but I'd rather not discuss it in the subway section...

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9 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

What caused you to jump to that conclusion? 

The gate is always open or we just all pop it open or we hop the turnstiles

Edited by Maxwell179

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