Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Lex]

59 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

But that combination doesn't make sense tho.. In this case Marine Park loses service. and with the B36/B100 thing.... I'm lost. Completely lost.

Think about how the B61 or Bx29 currently operate (both directions operating around a single focal point), but with a concurrency between both directions west of Gerritsen Avenue.

 

1 hour ago, jaf0519 said:

I personally think the QT88 was one of the better proposals, economically. The Woodhaven portion of the Q11/21 have way more ridership and I think that the QT88 is the most efficient (albeit not convenient) ways to serve both parts of Cross Bay. It’s much better than the Q38 simply because there is a purpose connecting both sides of Cross Bay. There is no purpose to connect Corona-Otis Ave to Rego Park-110 St other then outdated routing combinations.

That QT88 serves so much nothing that it would either be split up and folded into other routes (say, largely reverting to the existing Q11 and creating a janky Q41/Q112 combination) or outright canned without replacement within a year.

[Lawrence St]

Ok so if I were to draw a map would it help everyone understand these proposals better?

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

I personally think the QT88 was one of the better proposals, economically. The Woodhaven portion of the Q11/21 have way more ridership and I think that the QT88 is the most efficient (albeit not convenient) ways to serve both parts of Cross Bay. It’s much better than the Q38 simply because there is a purpose connecting both sides of Cross Bay. There is no purpose to connect Corona-Otis Ave to Rego Park-110 St other then outdated routing combinations.

Q38 will easily garner more riders than this QT88.... Eastern half of this QT88 will end up carrying more air throughout more of the day than either spur of the Q38.... Bringing up the Woodhaven portion of the Q11/21 garnering more ridership means much of nothing, when the vast majority of that ridership begins at Rockaway Blvd , due north.... Due south? The Q52/Q53 got the vast majority of that ridership... The QT88 is almost going to be solely dependent on the patronage of Lindenwood patrons to stay afloat....

You intimate there being more of a purpose with connecting both sides of Cross Bay, than there is with connecting Corona-Otis av. to Rego Park-110th st... The Q38's routing may be antiquated, but you're still posing a false equivalence - you would have to compare [connecting both end terminals of the Q38 with the Q38] with [connecting both end terminals of the QT88 with the QT88].... Just who the hell is trying & vying for getting to/from Old Howard Beach (99th/165th) to Howard Beach (Cross Bay/164th)? Honestly now.....

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

But that combination doesn't make sense tho.. In this case Marine Park loses service. and with the B36/B100 thing.... I'm lost. Completely lost.

The B36/B100 don't even connect at all. So I'm a bit confused with this. This combination is far worse than the B40/B78 combo.

Combining B64's & B74's, B2's & B31's, B36's & B100's, a route like the proposed QT88 being "much better" than the Q38?

We're in bizarro world right now.....

40 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Ok so if I were to draw a map would it help everyone understand these proposals better?

Draw whatever you want... Knock yourself out... It won't make your proposal any more plausible - especially with your severe lack of an explanation to justify these ideas you've whimsically blurted out....

45 minutes ago, Lex said:

That QT88 serves so much nothing that it would either be split up and folded into other routes (say, largely reverting to the existing Q11 and creating a janky Q41/Q112 combination) or outright canned without replacement within a year.

Eventually phasing out newly formed routes; sounds like a scheme the MTA would delve in... Then they could resort to their infamous, parroted, not too many riders would be affected, spiel......

Edited October 26, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Future ENY OP]

10 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Ok so if I were to draw a map would it help everyone understand these proposals better?

I just want to suggest one thing to you. Before you drop a proposal. Ride the actual bus line and see what fixes need to be made instead of coming with absurd ideas like this. 

[Lawrence St]

4 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I just want to suggest one thing to you. Before you drop a proposal. Ride the actual bus line and see what fixes need to be made instead of coming with absurd ideas like this. 

You may think it's absurd, but from an operational standpoint, it isn't. 

Its not like I'm removing service unlike the (MTA), I'm trying to make the system more simple and efficient. Was that not the whole point of these redesigns in the first place?

Edited October 26, 2020 by Lawrence St

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

You may think it's absurd, but from an operational standpoint, it isn't. 

Its not like I'm removing service unlike the (MTA), I'm trying to make the system more simple and efficient. Was that not the whole point of these redesigns in the first place?

So by that logic, let's randomly combine anything with anything, under the guise of simplification & efficiency...

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

18 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

You may think it's absurd, but from an operational standpoint, it isn't. 

Its not like I'm removing service unlike the (MTA), I'm trying to make the system more simple and efficient. Was that not the whole point of these redesigns in the first place?

The MTA is on paper, supposed to operate as a public service for the people to use. Routes should be designed based on where people want/need to go, not because they look "operationally feasible or whatever". It doesn't matter if you're not removing/eliminating service, if the route does not go where people need to go, they won't use it. Also, you put way too much stock on what the MTA pretends to do with these redesigns. 

[B35 via Church]

5 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The MTA is on paper, supposed to operate as a public service for the people to use. Routes should be designed based on where people want/need to go, not because they look "operationally feasible or whatever". It doesn't matter if you're not removing/eliminating service, if the route does not go where people need to go, they won't use it. Also, you put way too much stock on what the MTA pretends to do with these redesigns. 

You know, you'd think it'd be common sense that the intricacies of the routes matter....

Clinging onto & harping on talking points like efficiency & simplification doesn't make a specific proposal justifiable, just on that alone... Worse than that, the MTA uses such talking points to get those that don't know any better, to believe that whatever concoctions they drum up, are for, with, and in the best interest of the riding public...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

You may think it's absurd, but from an operational standpoint, it isn't. 

Its not like I'm removing service unlike the (MTA), I'm trying to make the system more simple and efficient. Was that not the whole point of these redesigns in the first place?

You're not making it more simple. You're suggesting routes that MEANDER about, make the rides LONGER for the core ridership, and may frustrate them enough to stop using the service! Why would anyone in Gerritsen Beach that is trying to reach the train want to meander over to Kings Plaza, then swing back over through Marine Park? Just retarded.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

I think I am reading his plan right, and what I’m getting from it is this:

B2/31 Combo: Buses will start at the first stop on the B31 in Gerritisen Beach, follow the route to the Kings Hwy  then instead of terminating loop around and follow the B2 route to Kings Plaza. Then trips would do the same the other way. The way it would save resources would be instead of having one bus on each route you would have 1 in total. Any potential increase in service would likely be eliminated by the additional runtime of the combination. All streets and stops on both routes would still be served.

B36/100 Combo: He combined these routes too. The entire B100 will still be served just by the extended B36. The only portion that would lose service would between Ave Z/Ocean Ave and the current B36 terminal since it would continue up Ocean to connect to the current B100. Mill Basin and Marine Park would still have all their service at B100 stops.

Even if it loops, it's still a terrible idea. Someone is going to have to suffer through a longer commute. If they are coming from Kings Highway and want Kings Plaza, they have to first go down to Gerritsen Beach, then come around and go to Kings Plaza.

[jaf0519]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Even if it loops, it's still a terrible idea. Someone is going to have to suffer through a longer commute. If they are coming from Kings Highway and want Kings Plaza, they have to first go down to Gerritsen Beach, then come around and go to Kings Plaza.

I personally think it is a very bad idea, but you are looking at it the wrong way. Kings Hwy is not the terminal,  it is the middle of the route.

If someone is going from Kings Hwy  to Kings Plaza, the commute is exactly the same. 

The only people with longer commutes would be those who currently take the B31 from Gerritsen Beach to transfer to the B2 to Kings Plaza. Currently one could take the B31 from Lois Ave to Ave R, transfer to the B2. In this plan they would not be able to since it would be one route. If they did that they would have to pay a second fare, or suffer through a ride down Ave R, loop via Ocean, Quentin, E. 16 St, then back down Ave R, followed by the B2 route, since the bus they would likely transfer if they got off would likely be the exact same bus that they got off.

[Lawrence St]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

So by that logic, let's randomly combine anything with anything, under the guise of simplification & efficiency...

Your acting as if im combining the B15 with the B35. Thats not the case.

 

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Even if it loops, it's still a terrible idea. Someone is going to have to suffer through a longer commute. If they are coming from Kings Highway and want Kings Plaza, they have to first go down to Gerritsen Beach, then come around and go to Kings Plaza.

But no one said anything about a loop. Service runs VIA KINGS HIGHWAY.

 

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You're not making it more simple. You're suggesting routes that MEANDER about, make the rides LONGER for the core ridership, and may frustrate them enough to stop using the service! Why would anyone in Gerritsen Beach that is trying to reach the train want to meander over to Kings Plaza, then swing back over through Marine Park? Just retarded.

But thats the thing, the ride isn't longer. Nothing in run time on the two B2/B31 corridors will change, it just becomes ONE route.

 

But I see that most of you don't like this, so I will try to see if I can make the proposal better.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Lawrence St

[checkmatechamp13]

@Lawrence St You're not saving any money by doing that combination. You're just having one route that takes (around) 40 minutes from end-to-end as opposed to two separate routes that take 20 minutes end-to-end.

[Lex]

53 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

But I see that most of you don't like this, so I will try to see if I can make the proposal better.

The easiest way to do that is to rescind it entirely. Aside from the concurrency west of Gerritsen Avenue and how residential the routes are, the two routes have virtually nothing in common, especially since they skew in very different directions (the B2 goes east through Marine Park for most of the run to/from Kings Plaza, while the B31 goes southeast to a peninsula known as Gerritsen Beach). Given how narrow their bases are (chances are, passengers are either gunning for Brighton or the B44), it only makes it harder to adequately serve all points

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

I personally think it is a very bad idea, but you are looking at it the wrong way. Kings Hwy is not the terminal,  it is the middle of the route.

If someone is going from Kings Hwy  to Kings Plaza, the commute is exactly the same. 

The only people with longer commutes would be those who currently take the B31 from Gerritsen Beach to transfer to the B2 to Kings Plaza. Currently one could take the B31 from Lois Ave to Ave R, transfer to the B2. In this plan they would not be able to since it would be one route. If they did that they would have to pay a second fare, or suffer through a ride down Ave R, loop via Ocean, Quentin, E. 16 St, then back down Ave R, followed by the B2 route, since the bus they would likely transfer if they got off would likely be the exact same bus that they got off.

I never said it was. I'm talking about where people are going...

It would make more sense to draw it on a map. I'm not understanding how it would be a "loop" and keep both the B2 and B31 routing and where the one terminal would be. So does it start in Gerristen Beach, then go to Kings Highway and then terminate at Kings Plaza? I guess from my point of view, I'm having a hard time seeing the "advantage"...

2 hours ago, jaf0519 said:

I personally think it is a very bad idea, but you are looking at it the wrong way. Kings Hwy is not the terminal,  it is the middle of the route.

If someone is going from Kings Hwy  to Kings Plaza, the commute is exactly the same. 

The only people with longer commutes would be those who currently take the B31 from Gerritsen Beach to transfer to the B2 to Kings Plaza. Currently one could take the B31 from Lois Ave to Ave R, transfer to the B2. In this plan they would not be able to since it would be one route. If they did that they would have to pay a second fare, or suffer through a ride down Ave R, loop via Ocean, Quentin, E. 16 St, then back down Ave R, followed by the B2 route, since the bus they would likely transfer if they got off would likely be the exact same bus that they got off.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Via Garibaldi 8

[jaf0519]

25 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I never said it was. I'm talking about where people are going...

It would make more sense to draw it on a map. I'm not understanding how it would be a "loop" and keep both the B2 and B31 routing and where the one terminal would be. So does it start in Gerristen Beach, then go to Kings Highway and then terminate at Kings Plaza? I guess from my point of view, I'm having a hard time seeing the "advantage"...

 

Okay I get what was confusing. Loop not in the sense of a route with one terminal, but in the sense of a route doubling back on itself to serve a location of the main part of the route route. Like how the Q47 serves Bulova Center by making a deviation from its regular route. The difference is that a route like the Q47 serves a location one block off its main route while this B2/31 combo has to travel almost a mile in each direction to get from Ave R/Gerritsen to serve the subway.

I don’t really see any benefits to this. If anything just interline the two routes but keep them numbered separately. People barely pay attention to if a bus is local or limited, how can they be expected to know which bus they would need to get on if they are the same number?

[Future ENY OP]

6 minutes ago, jaf0519 said:

Okay I get what was confusing. Loop not in the sense of a route with one terminal, but in the sense of a route doubling back on itself to serve a location of the main part of the route route. Like how the Q47 serves Bulova Center by making a deviation from its regular route. The difference is that a route like the Q47 serves a location one block off its main route while this B2/31 combo has to travel almost a mile in each direction to get from Ave R/Gerritsen to serve the subway.

I don’t really see any benefits to this. If anything just interline the two routes but keep them numbered separately. People barely pay attention to if a bus is local or limited, how can they be expected to know which bus they would need to get on if they are the same number?

There was never a benefit to this. The B2/31 serve different demographics. Although, yes they intersect on Avenue R and work concurrently until Quentin Road/Kings Hwy  doesn’t necessarily mean they have to either loop around, merge or what have you.  This route wasn’t going to benefit one way or another. 

[B35 via Church]

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Your acting as if im combining the B15 with the B35. Thats not the case.

You're suggesting combining routes for the mere sake of it, is the point.

You (snarkily) ask for constructive criticism, but offer much of no supporting argument to justify combining the specific routes you're suggesting... That's the problem here.

At that rate, you may as well suggest combining the B15 with the damn B35.

8 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@Lawrence St You're not saving any money by doing that combination. You're just having one route that takes (around) 40 minutes from end-to-end as opposed to two separate routes that take 20 minutes end-to-end.

6 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

There was never a benefit to this. The B2/31 serve different demographics. Although, yes they intersect on Avenue R and work concurrently until Quentin Road/Kings Hwy  doesn’t necessarily mean they have to either loop around, merge or what have you.  This route wasn’t going to benefit one way or another. 

He wants to free up resources so they can be redistributed elsewhere.... The B2 & B31 are short routes.... So there's a good chance these reallocated buses & drivers would be doing a trip{s} on a LONGER route{s}, costing MORE money

Oops.....

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I never said it was. I'm talking about where people are going...

It would make more sense to draw it on a map. I'm not understanding how it would be a "loop" and keep both the B2 and B31 routing and where the one terminal would be. So does it start in Gerristen Beach, then go to Kings Highway and then terminate at Kings Plaza? I guess from my point of view, I'm having a hard time seeing the "advantage"...

Yeah, don't overthink this nonsense... What he's suggesting is a route that runs from Kings Plaza to Gerritsen Beach that would have a mid-route diversion via Av. R, etc. to serve Kings Hwy. .

Edited October 27, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Q43LTD]

20 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Eventually phasing out newly formed routes; sounds like a scheme the MTA would delve in... Then they could resort to their infamous, parroted, not too many riders would be affected, spiel......

Ask the define not too many riders...

[EastFlatbushLarry]

i can't even begin to understand what's being suggested here, and quite frankly, i don't wanna know (qt88 brooklyn style? nope, not interested)

anyway, fyi the current b2/31 already terminal interlines at east 16 street. both the 2 & 31 have 9 runs apiece (runs 001-009 on the B2 & runs 101-109 on the b31... school open/closed) so i don't understand the obsession of anyone attempting to relocate resources from lines that basically equal 18 runs total on weekdays. how many more runs need to be "reallocated"/cut from the 2/31 that has already been repeatedly chopped to the current service level... screw that. btw damn near every run on the 2/31 terminal interlines. only 9 do not (Saturday/sunday)

Edited October 27, 2020 by EastFlatbushLarry

[Lex]

1 hour ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i can't even begin to understand what's being suggested here, and quite frankly, i don't wanna know (qt88 brooklyn style? nope, not interested)

anyway, fyi the current b2/31 already terminal interlines at east 16 street. both the 2 & 31 have 9 runs apiece (runs 001-009 on the B2 & runs 101-109 on the b31... school open/closed) so i don't understand the obsession of anyone attempting to relocate resources from lines that basically equal 18 runs total on weekdays. how many more runs need to be "reallocated"/cut from the 2/31 that has already been repeatedly chopped to the current service level... screw that. btw damn near every run on the 2/31 terminal interlines. only 9 do not (Saturday/sunday)

I figured as much. The schedules match up too well to not do so.

Given the pressure on Flatbush, I'd expect any resources subtracted from the two routes to sit in the depot unless needed in an emergency (aside from regular rotation, of course).

[Lawrence St]

I took the B24 for the first time, why in the hell does it make a massive detour into Queens just to come back in Brooklyn?

[JAzumah]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I took the B24 for the first time, why in the hell does it make a massive detour into Queens just to come back in Brooklyn?

Two separate routes were combined to make that route.

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I took the B24 for the first time, why in the hell does it make a massive detour into Queens just to come back in Brooklyn?

The same reason the Q38 takes a massive detour to get from one side of the Long Island Expwy. to the other.

3 minutes ago, JAzumah said:

Two separate routes were combined to make that route.

This.

[Lawrence St]

With the redesign, I hope they fix the issues they created with the routes when the budget cuts happened and they merged everything with everything. Specifically with the B61, it's worse then it was prior to 2010. Now it's a combination of the B61, B77 and B71.