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Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread


Cait Sith

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Can't get quotes to work. The B33 also served Ebbets Field long after the ferry stopped. It lost its usefulness when the Dodgers left, but hung around for 20 more years with reduced service until it was rush hours only at 20 minute headways. No one wanted it anymore with that crappy service so it was discontinued. When it was still running you could take up to 14 buses in Brooklyn for one fare by hooking together transfers. But half of the two bus trips required double fare. 

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5 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

The B41 never served the ferry terminal. It always terminated at Civic Center and was extended to the waterfront briefly in the 90's I believe long after the ferry was discontinued. 

Thanks for the clear up @BrooklynBus. I always remembered during the 90's that certain 41's would go down to Front Street along with the 25. 

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4 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Can't get quotes to work. The B33 also served Ebbets Field long after the ferry stopped. It lost its usefulness when the Dodgers left, but hung around for 20 more years with reduced service until it was rush hours only at 20 minute headways. No one wanted it anymore with that crappy service so it was discontinued. When it was still running you could take up to 14 buses in Brooklyn for one fare by hooking together transfers. But half of the two bus trips required double fare. 

You youngsters sure know a lot about bus service in Brooklyn 😃.

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5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Can't get quotes to work. The B33 also served Ebbets Field long after the ferry stopped. It lost its usefulness when the Dodgers left, but hung around for 20 more years with reduced service until it was rush hours only at 20 minute headways. No one wanted it anymore with that crappy service so it was discontinued. When it was still running you could take up to 14 buses in Brooklyn for one fare by hooking together transfers. But half of the two bus trips required double fare. 

When I used to head home from school, (PS and JHS), sometimes I would eschew the B46-B14 route and head the other way.  I'd take the B17 Remsen to Rockaway Parkway to the B60. Remember that back then the B17 terminated at the Parkway with alternate service down to Seaview. Became friendly with an old timer B/O who would talk to me about my travels. After a few months just before we'd hit the Rockaway Parkway-Glenwood terminal he would gather up an assortment of transfer and give them to me to study. The operators had a bin located at their left below the side window and slightly behind them back then. That's how I learned a lot about which lines transfers intersected with the other lines. Even when I took the other way home I'd ask the B/O for a transfer on the B46 and the B14 even though I had a free bus and train pass. The Remsen B/O told me that if I was polite and asked nicely most operators would honor my request. I don't know if you remember but the paper transfers did have a sort of time limitation on them. At the bottom of the transfer was a section that had an AM/ PM section that the B/O would tear off that would show when the transfer was issued. They would set the transfers up before letting people on at Eastern Parkway on the B14, Rockaway and Hegeman on the B35 and the B60 runs that terminated there, and Rockaway Parkway on the B17. When I moved to Flatbush in '61 Prospect Park on the Brighton became my home station so I saw the B33 buses firsthand. I believe that they were signed up with " Ferry Place" as the destination. The B65's were signed up as " Ferry Place" I think but later on I remember " Hamilton Ave" on the destination signs. Thanks for bringing back the memories. You and I go a long way back. Carry on.

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5 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

When I used to head home from school, (PS and JHS), sometimes I would eschew the B46-B14 route and head the other way.  I'd take the B17 Remsen to Rockaway Parkway to the B60. Remember that back then the B17 terminated at the Parkway with alternate service down to Seaview. Became friendly with an old timer B/O who would talk to me about my travels. After a few months just before we'd hit the Rockaway Parkway-Glenwood terminal he would gather up an assortment of transfer and give them to me to study. The operators had a bin located at their left below the side window and slightly behind them back then. That's how I learned a lot about which lines transfers intersected with the other lines. Even when I took the other way home I'd ask the B/O for a transfer on the B46 and the B14 even though I had a free bus and train pass. The Remsen B/O told me that if I was polite and asked nicely most operators would honor my request. I don't know if you remember but the paper transfers did have a sort of time limitation on them. At the bottom of the transfer was a section that had an AM/ PM section that the B/O would tear off that would show when the transfer was issued. They would set the transfers up before letting people on at Eastern Parkway on the B14, Rockaway and Hegeman on the B35 and the B60 runs that terminated there, and Rockaway Parkway on the B17. When I moved to Flatbush in '61 Prospect Park on the Brighton became my home station so I saw the B33 buses firsthand. I believe that they were signed up with " Ferry Place" as the destination. The B65's were signed up as " Ferry Place" I think but later on I remember " Hamilton Ave" on the destination signs. Thanks for bringing back the memories. You and I go a long way back. Carry on.

In the early 70s a very nice guy at the TA gave me a complete set of Brooklyn transfers which I used to determine the longest one fare trip you could make. The reason you could take more than two buses for one fare was on some transfers (any route that terminated at WB Plaza) you were entitled to a transfer upon getting off even if you boarded with a transfer. When you used that transfer, it stated that you could request another one. The reason was because all routes terminating at the bridge once went over the bridge as trolleys. 

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When you mentioned Ferry Place, you got me thinking about the old destination signs. The TA tried to use obscure or confusing destinations rather than known streets. It seemed like they were intentionally trying to discourage riders by keeping real destinations a secret. Don't forget there were no free bus maps before 1969. 

What else would be the reason for these destinations: B1 to Oxford. B2 to Ave U. B3 to Ave N. B5 and B7 to Ryder St. B6 to Harway.  B8 to Bay 7 St or E 83 St. B9 to Dorman Sq. B12 to Jewel Sq. B21 to Bragg St. B33 to Ferry Pl. B36 to Ave U. B45 to Court Sq. B49 to Shore Blvd. B68 to Bartel Pritchard Sq or West 5 St. B75 to 20 St. 

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On 8/24/2021 at 11:54 AM, bobtehpanda said:

The nice thing about NYC being a city of islands is that the bus networks of the boroughs are more or less separate and can be redesigned without f**king up the others too much.

However, that's not true for Brooklyn/Queens, and sometimes I wonder whether or not the county lines were the most appropriate boundaries for redesign; if it were me I'd do north of Queens Blvd, south of Broadway (Brooklyn), and everything in between as a redesign each.

They are doing these redesigns by depot. That's why the M100 is being changed in the Bronx redesign despite it never touching The Bronx (or the depot even being in The Bronx but that's a different story)

The Brooklyn redesign is Ulmer Park, Gleason, Grand Avenue, Fresh Pond, ENY, Flatbush and Spring Creek. So in practice it might end up being implemented as described (the MTA staff said the execution would be planned our later)

15 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

I did a little research the other day on a old Brooklyn Bus map from the 1970's and there are some interesting factors that I saw

B65: Red Hook to Crown Heights... When did this get reduced to the current- Smith/Fulton stop?

B21: KCC to Knapp Street (Sheepshead Bay loop). In today's standards this route would need to be extended to Midwood via Ocean to help the B49. (possibly)

B84: Canarsie- Rockaway Parkway to East New York- Ashford Street-Wortman Ave. Today's B84 doesn't even go to Canarsie. However, this needs to be talked about more with regards to the real estate that's growing in this area of Spring Creek-East NY & Canarsie.

B34: Bay Ridge- Shore Road & 71 Street to 25th Ave via 86th Street (Ulmer Park Depot)  Today's 86th street needs additional coverage. The current B1 service doesn't cut it.

B33: Red Hook to Lincoln Road-Prospect Park (B)(Q).  For today's standards this route won't be attractive b/c Red Hook commuters are not looking to go into Flatbush- Lefferts Gardens.

---------------------------------------------------

But on a personal note: To address the Red Hook issue: Reinstate the B75 and B77 to help out the B57 and B61

As for Park Slope: 8th Avenue, Prospect Park West, Union Street all need bus service. The current B67 and B69 services on 7th Avenue don't cut it.  Although, Union Street is very narrow it was a good through-fare for many years in Park Slope bus service.

65th Street needs bus coverage badly.

Thoughts?

The Existing Conditions Report calls out Red Hook as being an isolated area. They might not revive the B33 for the connection to PLG specifically, but rather for the connections to the Brighton Line and buses towards eastern Brooklyn. (I can picture something like the Red Hook - Windsor Terrace portion of the B61 extended to say, Church & Flatbush)

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40 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

If the B75 and 77 are reinstated, wouldn't it make sense to cut back the 57 and 61?

Most definitely.. The 57 and 61 are too long for today's standards to service Red Hook.

For the B57- Cut it to Downtown Brooklyn and terminate along with the B62 at Adams & Livingston and have the B75 take over that portion of the route from Downtown. Have the B75 start at City Tech to end at IKEA.

Reinstate the B77 at it's original stop of 10th Street and 5th Avenue or start at Prospect Park West- Bartel Prichard Sq (F) > 15th > 8th > 9th Street. Left on 9th and proceed to Red Hook.

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17 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

They are doing these redesigns by depot...

Not sure what this means exactly, to be quite honest....

12 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Where exactly was the old ferry terminal in Red Hook located? I've heard of it before, never seen it though.

Where the current Container Terminal is situated.

11 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

If the B75 and 77 are reinstated, wouldn't it make sense to cut back the 57 and 61?

Smith/Court south of Downtown Brooklyn definitely doesn't warrant duplicate service (nor a service increase) & while some additional rush hour service running back & forth b/w Red Hook & 4th/9th (F)(R) subway{s} are in order IMO, I wouldn't revert the B77 nomenclature just for that specific purpose (see below reply, last paragraph)....

10 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Most definitely.. The 57 and 61 are too long for today's standards to service Red Hook.

For the B57- Cut it to Downtown Brooklyn and terminate along with the B62 at Adams & Livingston and have the B75 take over that portion of the route from Downtown. Have the B75 start at City Tech to end at IKEA.

Reinstate the B77 at it's original stop of 10th Street and 5th Avenue or start at Prospect Park West- Bartel Prichard Sq (F) > 15th > 8th > 9th Street. Left on 9th and proceed to Red Hook.

The B61 isn't necessarily long, as much as it is time consuming (not exactly the same thing), due to the meandrous nature of the thing...

As far what you're saying for a reverted B75 & B77, a sizable amt. of riders that are currently taking B61's from the general area around Pritchard Sq. are riding past Red Hook; that's the thing.... Have a B77 run b/w Pritchard Sq. & Red Hook would only push Park Slopers to the (F) (or the B67 - even with the way the MTA bastardized service on that route)..... They're not going to want to do any xferring in Red Hook for a bus to get Downtown, when the B67 & the B63 (aside from the subway itself) are more proximate....

As for the other idea, unless you'd plan on running barebone service (worse than current B57 service), to reinstate the B75 to have it run as a worse version of the B61 that ran b/w Downtown Brooklyn & Ikea would be an utter waste... I mean, I agree that it shouldn't be today's B57 doing the duties that the old B75 did b/w Downtown Bklyn. & IKEA, but I can't side with a standalone route along Smith/Court between the 2 areas either....

What I'd like to see for the (current) B61 is an overall service increase, but a short turn scenario that has buses running no deeper into Park Slope past 7th... From Downtown Brooklyn, I do think there's a bit too much service into Park Slope past that point.... Ending buses at 7th is going to loom rather infeasible, so I suppose having said short turns end where the B77 used to, would be in order....

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15 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Most definitely.. The 57 and 61 are too long for today's standards to service Red Hook.

For the B57- Cut it to Downtown Brooklyn and terminate along with the B62 at Adams & Livingston and have the B75 take over that portion of the route from Downtown. Have the B75 start at City Tech to end at IKEA.

Reinstate the B77 at it's original stop of 10th Street and 5th Avenue or start at Prospect Park West- Bartel Prichard Sq (F) > 15th > 8th > 9th Street. Left on 9th and proceed to Red Hook.

 

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Not sure what this means exactly, to be quite honest....

Where the current Container Terminal is situated.

Smith/Court south of Downtown Brooklyn definitely doesn't warrant duplicate service (nor a service increase) & while some additional rush hour service running back & forth b/w Red Hook & 4th/9th (F)(R) subway{s} are in order IMO, I wouldn't revert the B77 nomenclature just for that specific purpose (see below reply, last paragraph)....

The B61 isn't necessarily long, as much as it is time consuming (not exactly the same thing), due to the meandrous nature of the thing...

As far what you're saying for a reverted B75 & B77, a sizable amt. of riders that are currently taking B61's from the general area around Pritchard Sq. are riding past Red Hook; that's the thing.... Have a B77 run b/w Pritchard Sq. & Red Hook would only push Park Slopers to the (F) (or the B67 - even with the way the MTA bastardized service on that route)..... They're not going to want to do any xferring in Red Hook for a bus to get Downtown, when the B67 & the B63 (aside from the subway itself) are more proximate....

As for the other idea, unless you'd plan on running barebone service (worse than current B57 service), to reinstate the B75 to have it run as a worse version of the B61 that ran b/w Downtown Brooklyn & Ikea would be an utter waste... I mean, I agree that it shouldn't be today's B57 doing the duties that the old B75 did b/w Downtown Bklyn. & IKEA, but I can't side with a standalone route along Smith/Court between the 2 areas either....

What I'd like to see for the (current) B61 is an overall service increase, but a short turn scenario that has buses running no deeper into Park Slope past 7th... From Downtown Brooklyn, I do think there's a bit too much service into Park Slope past that point.... Ending buses at 7th is going to loom rather infeasible, so I suppose having said short turns end where the B77 used to, would be in order....

There is that QT4 route in the Queens redesign. Maybe the 57 gets eliminated entirely? If the B75 is brought back to do Downtown Brooklyn and Red Hook, I would have the B77 end at the former 75 terminal in Park Slope

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On 8/26/2021 at 12:54 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

They are doing these redesigns by depot.

Division. They are doing these redesigns by division. And even so that's still not 100% true.

Notice how the Q24, Q58 and Q54-56 are largely untouched besides their extreme ends. The Q54 and Q58 are also getting limited variants called the QT3 and QT6 respectively. Besides that, not much is being touched in the Brooklyn Division. Spring Creek is part of the Queens Division but because all the routes are operated in Brooklyn besides the BM5, that comes in the Brooklyn redesign.

On a different topic, I have a theory which is they want both the Brooklyn and Queens redesigns to start at the same time since there are new queens routes overlapping old Brooklyn routes.

Edited by MysteriousBtrain
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44 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I've been hearing that 16th Av residents are asking for the (MTA) to somehow reinstate the B23. Not sure how that's gonna work out since the western terminal now has a direction change. 

Reinstating the B23 is gonna be a hard sell. The MTA feels that the B8 should be able to handle the work.  Truthfully, if they can implement the B90 series they can sure find a way to reinstate some of these routes in the re-design plan. 

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2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Reinstating the B23 is gonna be a hard sell. The MTA feels that the B8 should be able to handle the work.  Truthfully, if they can implement the B90 series they can sure find a way to reinstate some of these routes in the re-design plan. 

The B23 always had very light patronage except for school students. Otherwise there were never more than four passengers on the bus. If you lived on 17th Avenue, which route would you use an infrequent B23 or a more frequent B8? You know the answer. That's why if 16th Avenue service comes back, the route cannot merely duplicate the B8 for it to be successful. It has to be part of a larger reorganization as I suggested here with 16th Avenue service going up McDonald and Cortelyou service doing something else. Unfortunately, the MTA doesn't have the capacity to change more than one or two routes at a time when they need to change about  six interlinked routes at the same time.

My Brooklyn Bus Network revision plan can be found at  https://1drv.ms/b/s!AmiYAcY6ebQngUDLhOC-BonmAg19

 

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15 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Division. They are doing these redesigns by division. And even so that's still not 100% true.

Notice how the Q24, Q58 and Q54-56 are largely untouched besides their extreme ends. The Q54 and Q58 are also getting limited variants called the QT3 and QT6 respectively. Besides that, not much is being touched in the Brooklyn Division. Spring Creek is part of the Queens Division but because all the routes are operated in Brooklyn besides the BM5, that comes in the Brooklyn redesign.

On a different topic, I have a theory which is they want both the Brooklyn and Queens redesigns to start at the same time since there are new queens routes overlapping old Brooklyn routes.

Isn't the Q59 untouched too?

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6 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Reinstating the B23 is gonna be a hard sell. The MTA feels that the B8 should be able to handle the work.  Truthfully, if they can implement the B90 series they can sure find a way to reinstate some of these routes in the re-design plan. 

I could see the B23 coming back as the 13th/14th Avenues bus with the B16 staying on Fort Hamilton Parkway the full length. Would be nice if it went all the way down to the VA Hospital or even Bay Ridge.

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14 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I could see the B23 coming back as the 13th/14th Avenues bus with the B16 staying on Fort Hamilton Parkway the full length. Would be nice if it went all the way down to the VA Hospital or even Bay Ridge.

This would be good. 13th and 14th Avenues definitely need bus service.  B16 down Ft. Hamilton would be the smoothest operation. But again, this is the (MTA) we are talking about. They don't see the problems like we do.

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On 8/27/2021 at 7:34 AM, MysteriousBtrain said:

On a different topic, I have a theory which is they want both the Brooklyn and Queens redesigns to start at the same time since there are new queens routes overlapping old Brooklyn routes.

9 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

This would be good. 13th and 14th Avenues definitely need bus service.  B16 down Ft. Hamilton would be the smoothest operation. But again, this is the (MTA) we are talking about. They don't see the problems like we do.

There is no way they can do Brooklyn and Queens at the same time. It isn't even possible to do Brooklyn or Queens all at once. Queens would have to be done in at least three parts. Brooklyn would also have to be done in stages.

They see the problems as a way to cut service, not improve it. The way they now see it, since Covid has reduced patronage by 40 percent, these proposals will have to have 40 percent less service. That means about 40 percent fewer routes with greater spacing between routes and wider spaced routes. I bet routes like the B52 will disappear since there are parallel routes a quarter mile away. They will again try to eliminate the B25 because of the subway. Smith Street B57 will also go. They may straighten out Ft Hamilton Pkway and 13th Ave which may be the only good coming out of these proposals. 

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On 8/26/2021 at 11:59 AM, BrooklynBus said:

That’s not the way to plan a redesign. It can’t work.

All of the routes within a depot are intertwined. If nothing else, it affects the B/Os in terms of run pay and days off and which trips are interlined and things like that. So it makes sense to take a look at all of the routes within a given depot as part of that borough's redesign. 

On 8/26/2021 at 8:25 PM, B35 via Church said:

Not sure what this means exactly, to be quite honest....

Basically, I asked the question of which routes are considered as part of the Brooklyn redesign, and which routes are considered as part of the Queens redesign, and the answer was "the Brooklyn redesign is the 6 Transit depots [Ulmer Park, Gleason, ENY, Flatbush, Grand Avenue, and Fresh Pond] and Spring Creek". But at the same time, they will be coordinating with the Queens redesign planners to make sure everything is cohesive (and considering that Brooklyn only lags Queens by six months, I'm willing to bet that we'll see the final plan for both before either one is implemented, and then the question will be how exactly they will phase in the implementation).

On 8/27/2021 at 7:34 AM, MysteriousBtrain said:

Division. They are doing these redesigns by division. And even so that's still not 100% true.

Notice how the Q24, Q58 and Q54-56 are largely untouched besides their extreme ends. The Q54 and Q58 are also getting limited variants called the QT3 and QT6 respectively. Besides that, not much is being touched in the Brooklyn Division. Spring Creek is part of the Queens Division but because all the routes are operated in Brooklyn besides the BM5, that comes in the Brooklyn redesign.

On a different topic, I have a theory which is they want both the Brooklyn and Queens redesigns to start at the same time since there are new queens routes overlapping old Brooklyn routes.

The planners themselves are still figuring out how exactly to phase in the changes. So what "they want" is literally anyone's guess, including their own. There are definitely logistical challenges to doing everything at once: Coordinating with NYCDOT to change out the bus stop signs, and then dealing with the complaints that will invariably come in during the first few months...with the SIM redesign they were bombarded with complaints, and that was much smaller in scale (but at the same time, they also screwed up on a level that will hopefully never happen again, so the amount of complaints would likely be similar overall). 

12 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Isn't the Q59 untouched too?

 

11 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I don't remember exactly but let me check...

Same situation as the other routes, looks like a minor change with Williamsburg. Q24 and Q54-59 look similar or nearly unchanged.

I mean, there's only so much you can change on these routes. The big theme of the redesign is "Make straight, direct routes". The Q54 runs straight down Metropolitan Avenue, the Q55 runs straight down Myrtle Avenue, the Q56 runs straight down Jamaica Avenue, the Q59 runs straight down Grand Street/Grand Avenue, and the Q58 is still a relatively direct route between Flushing and Ridgewood, given the street grid (the MTA straightening out the Q58 & Q59 was definitely a positive change, and I'd say the Q55 & Q58 changes were pretty major)

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