Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[BreeddekalbL]

I want to see your changes regarding the b38 🤔

[Lawrence St]

51 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

I want to see your changes regarding the b38 🤔

Uhh, you sure about that?

The Woodward branch is discontinued, and the B38 is merged with the Q55 to 121 St Subway.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Lawrence St

[Gotham Bus Co.]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

The Woodward branch is discontinued, and the B38 is merged with the Q55 to 121 St Subway.

That would subject the Queens part of Myrtle to the vagaries of Downtown Brooklyn. The routes would be too long and unreliable.

[Nova Fly Guy]

On 8/30/2021 at 8:51 PM, B35 via Church said:

So is the problem really that it's a shuttle (regardless of how well utilized that shuttle is), or is it the fact that it lacks revenue mileage per trip, compared to other routes in the system?

The fact of the matter is that shuttles have their place in a bus network, just like any other fixed route service....

Yes.

What you're essentially implicating with this is that some of these communities don't make sense.... Every single community has an agenda & TBH, that's not necessarily a bad thing.... Certain communities simply don't value and/or vie for public transit as much as other communities do... These are the same communities that simply value other facets of what makes a community a community.... I know that this is a public transit forum, but I can't feel too much of a certain type of way, realizing that penultimate sentence/statement....

No he has a valid point you have outdated pattern and people who don’t know what they’re talking about. Most CB are filled with people that don’t even utilize the service already there but have input.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Nova Fly Guy

[Lawrence St]

8 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

That would subject the Queens part of Myrtle to the vagaries of Downtown Brooklyn. The routes would be too long and unreliable.

Not if you add bus lanes.

[Nova Fly Guy]

For East New York/Canarsie area the B20, B83 & B84 need a major revamping. Pennsylvania Av needs one seat service the entire length it is pass due. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Nova Fly Guy

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Resources and cost saving.

Let's be honest, there's a lot of redundant service in Brooklyn that can be used somewhere else. 

I was waiting for you to say that.

This cost-neutral approach as a method to "improve" the bus system is a bunch of crap, and that's putting it nicely. You need to invest more in order to grow ridership and provide a more useful system. This isn't rocket science either. Why do we have to give in to the MTA's garbage way of thinking that it's all about efficiency of (existing) resources, when they've clearly shown they don't care about providing bus service? You're trying to create a system that caters to the penny-pinching corporate tools at the top, who don't ride the system and are clueless that numbers and aren't the only indicator of necessity. 

 

[JeremiahC99]

2 hours ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

For East New York/Canarsie area the B20, B83 & B84 need a major revamping. Pennsylvania Av needs one seat service the entire length it is pass due. 

So if the B20 and B83 were straightened on Penn and Van Siclen Avenues respectively, could this mean that the B6 replace B20 service on Linden Blvd with the B84 getting a service boost to replace lost service?

[Future ENY OP]

39 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

So if the B20 and B83 were straightened on Penn and Van Siclen Avenues respectively, could this mean that the B6 replace B20 service on Linden Blvd with the B84 getting a service boost to replace lost service?

Why should the B6 replace the B20 service on Linden? Last thing you need is the B6 heading deep into Spring Creek. New Lots Avenue is fair enough. Unless the 6 and 20 are swapping terminals I don't forsee this happening.

[JeremiahC99]

14 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Why should the B6 replace the B20 service on Linden? Last thing you need is the B6 heading deep into Spring Creek. New Lots Avenue is fair enough. Unless the 6 and 20 are swapping terminals I don't forsee this happening.

This is for if Pennsylvania Avenue service is straightened out (I.e one route traveling along the entire corridor). Something would have to replace service on Linden Blvd to maintain the service over there. Perhaps another route should replace the B20 over on Linden Blvd if the route is straightened out on Pennsylvania.

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I was waiting for you to say that.

This cost-neutral approach as a method to "improve" the bus system is a bunch of crap, and that's putting it nicely. You need to invest more in order to grow ridership and provide a more useful system. This isn't rocket science either. Why do we have to give in to the MTA's garbage way of thinking that it's all about efficiency of (existing) resources, when they've clearly shown they don't care about providing bus service? You're trying to create a system that caters to the penny-pinching corporate tools at the top, who don't ride the system and are clueless that numbers and aren't the only indicator of necessity. 

 

In our current political world thats how it has to be. I'm trying to be realistic with these plans, hence my decision to discontinue the B67 in exchange for the B77.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Lawrence St

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

No he has a valid point you have outdated pattern and people who don’t know what they’re talking about. Most CB are filled with people that don’t even utilize the service already there but have input.

That's not the particular part of his point I was contesting; yeah you have CB's that are out of touch when it comes to public transit, that flexes their political muscle to get what they want.....

What I'm saying is that you can't expect CB's not to have an agenda (or input), whether right or wrong, when it comes to the ongoings of & within their own community.... Part of the real issue is that there is a minuscule amt. of residents in a given community that aren't community minded.... It is what it is.

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Uhh, you sure about that?

The Woodward branch is discontinued, and the B38 is merged with the Q55 to 121 St Subway.

So much for being realistic....

3 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

This cost-neutral approach as a method to "improve" the bus system is a bunch of crap, and that's putting it nicely. You need to invest more in order to grow ridership and provide a more useful system. This isn't rocket science either. Why do we have to give in to the MTA's garbage way of thinking that it's all about efficiency of (existing) resources, when they've clearly shown they don't care about providing bus service? You're trying to create a system that caters to the penny-pinching corporate tools at the top, who don't ride the system and are clueless that numbers and aren't the only indicator of necessity.

"Cost neutral" today, net negative tomorrow....

How often does the MTA make service additions without subtractions? Now compare that to how often the MTA makes service subtractions without additions.

I find that there are too many that believe that MTA knows what's right, simply because they are the ones providing the service.....

4 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

In our current political world thats how it has to be. I'm trying to be realistic with these plans, hence my decision to discontinue the B67 in exchange for the B77.

Let's be honest.... You just wanted to showcase your map editing skills with these ideas & nothing more.

[Lawrence St]

@B35 via Church Partially lol, but I'm trying to also be realistic. I offered for everyone to give me some ideas and no one did!

[BreeddekalbL]

9 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Uhh, you sure about that?

The Woodward branch is discontinued, and the B38 is merged with the Q55 to 121 St Subway.

Nah B would be too long

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

In our current political world thats how it has to be. I'm trying to be realistic with these plans, hence my decision to discontinue the B67 in exchange for the B77.

So basically conform to the status quo, no matter how erroneous and/or out of step it is with what people need. Yeah, very realistic...

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

So much for being realistic....

Well, the only part he kept it real there was when he started off with the disclaimer:

11 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Uhh, you sure about that?

(Also, as if putting down bus lanes solve the issue of creating such a route)

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

"Cost neutral" today, net negative tomorrow....

How often does the MTA make service additions without subtractions? Now compare that to how often the MTA makes service subtractions without additions.

I find that there are too many that believe that MTA knows what's right, simply because they are the ones providing the service.....

Yeah and that's very unfortunate. They act like these (and other) institutions by default have no ulterior motives because that's what they were intended for. Some of them have to be masochists the way they defend that shit. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Nova Fly Guy]

19 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

This is for if Pennsylvania Avenue service is straightened out (I.e one route traveling along the entire corridor). Something would have to replace service on Linden Blvd to maintain the service over there. Perhaps another route should replace the B20 over on Linden Blvd if the route is straightened out on Pennsylvania.

I propose this before a minor swap of patterns South of New lots for the B20 & B83 with the B84 taking over the wortman potion of the B20. You could still loop it back on Flatlands if you want to get back to gateway.

With this you can give the B20 some kind of stability and enhance the B84 somewhat.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Nova Fly Guy

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

I propose this before a minor swap of patterns South of New lots for the B20 & B83 with the B84 taking over the wortman potion of the B20. You could still loop it back on Flatlands if you want to get back to gateway.

With this you can give the B20 some kind of stability and enhance the B84 somewhat.

So in essence with your B20 and B83 swap, the B20 would be an extended B83 route (with the B20 designation)? And what about Linden Blvd? Would the B83 take over that or would another route do it?

[Nova Fly Guy]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

So in essence with your B20 and B83 swap, the B20 would be an extended B83 route (with the B20 designation)? And what about Linden Blvd? Would the B83 take over that or would another route do it?

The portions east of linden can be discontinued the B15 is less then a mile away. Linden & Blvd Houses still have access to the  or The Junction and now to Gateway one seat with the B84 Taking over Wortman.

The B83 would be the primary Pennsylvania Av route better streamlined for a quicker ride through ENY. All Trips Serve Gateway during the day when the B20 & B84 are running, Late Nights the B83 will run on Van Siclen.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Nova Fly Guy

[B35 via Church]

13 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Well, the only part he kept it real there was when he started off with the disclaimer:

Quote

Uhh, you sure about that?

(Also, as if putting down bus lanes solve the issue of creating such a route)

I mean, we been through this song & dance already on this forum; quite a few times back in the early 2010's... The whole suggesting of lengthy, unwarranted routes & (the commencing of) justifying them by having them run as LTD's on bus lanes...

13 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Yeah and that's very unfortunate. They act like these (and other) institutions by default have no ulterior motives because that's what they were intended for. Some of them have to be masochists the way they defend that shit. 

People in general want to believe that others will do right by them.

[Lawrence St]

 

Alright, I started from scratch. Anyone have any ideas, let me know!

Pretty simple so far, the B38 hasn't changed (except for the Woodward branch being discontinued). 

The B51 is back and better then ever with a new number B85, with new service to Red Hook.

[Lawrence St]

Progress #2:

ROUTES:

B1: Red Hook to DUMBO via Dwntn Bklyn.

B2: Red Hook to Park Row/Manhattan via Dwntn Bklyn

B3: Downtown Brooklyn to ENY (formerly B25).

B4: Downtown Brooklyn to Myrtle-Wyckoff Av (formerly B38). (NOTE: B4 Local buses run only between Bushwick Av & Downtown Brooklyn days & evenings), B4 LTD buses run whole route.)

Q1: 11th St (Queens) to Downtown Brooklyn via Division Av.

Thoughts?

[Lawrence St]

18 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I mean, we been through this song & dance already on this forum; quite a few times back in the early 2010's... The whole suggesting of lengthy, unwarranted routes & (the commencing of) justifying them by having them run as LTD's on bus lanes...

People in general want to believe that others will do right by them.

That's not my ENTIRE intention. I'm trying to better the network with better connectivity and better crosstown routes (see above for examples).

[Future ENY OP]

On 9/3/2021 at 4:45 AM, B35 via Church said:

I mean, we been through this song & dance already on this forum; quite a few times back in the early 2010's... The whole suggesting of lengthy, unwarranted routes & (the commencing of) justifying them by having them run as LTD's on bus lanes...

Those conversations have yielded to nothing and plus the MTA is flooding SBS routes and not limited. Limiteds from this point on are history. The last route to receive a limited designation was the B49 and that's just for AM rush hours only. I don't think there's a PM variant for the 49. (please someone correct me if this is wrong)

 

On 9/2/2021 at 9:39 PM, Nova Fly Guy said:

The portions east of linden can be discontinued the B15 is less then a mile away. Linden & Blvd Houses still have access to the  or The Junction and now to Gateway one seat with the B84 Taking over Wortman.

The B83 would be the primary Pennsylvania Av route better streamlined for a quicker ride through ENY. All Trips Serve Gateway during the day when the B20 & B84 are running, Late Nights the B83 will run on Van Siclen.

 

Some of the B20's ridership also comes from Pink houses and Linden Plaza and some of those riders get a one seat ride to the Junction.  Are you saying that the B15 should be the only bus to serve Linden Blvd?  Unless if you make the B84 a full Spring Creek- East New York line to cover Linden Blvd, Wortman Avenue than I can't see this happening.

[B35 via Church]

12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

That's not my ENTIRE intention...

1] Cool, but nobody said it was.

2] Doesn't have to be your entire intention... The fact that it's even an iota of your intentions are more than enough.

12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

.....I'm trying to better the network with better connectivity and better crosstown routes (see above for examples).

The "Better Connectivity" talking point is another way of trying to justify long-winded routes also (as well as less resources, but this is more on the provider end).... Routes can not be all encompassing & there needs to be some sort of justifiable/sensible limit.... Running B68's to Red Hook & B16's to Downtown aint it....

For the latter, to have B16's running Downtown over the B67 has less to do with "better connectivity" & more to do with attempting to eliminate the redundancy you believe the B67 & B69 has along 7th av.... You aint getting much of anyone south of the cemetery (Greenwood) to ride along 7th to get Downtown..... While there are service gaps in the system, just look at the B16 midroute & there's one of the obvious service gaps in Brooklyn....

You could argue that said cemetery creates a service gap also (as if to say, if it didn't exist, the B70 would perhaps run Downtown)... But for all the turning the B16 does currently, and two, to snake around the cemetery to get to 7th av, it's not the best of choices to extend northward....

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

Those conversations have yielded to nothing and plus the MTA is flooding SBS routes and not limited. Limiteds from this point on are history. The last route to receive a limited designation was the B49 and that's just for AM rush hours only. I don't think there's a PM variant for the 49. (please someone correct me if this is wrong)

Yeah, LTD's are done for - but the larger point is that routes should not necessarily be prolonged, due to the service type of that route (whether LTD or SBS) making less stops over a certain amount of mileage.....

...and no, the B49 LTD doesn't run during the PM hrs.

Edited September 4, 2021 by B35 via Church

[B35 via Church]

19 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Progress #2:

ROUTES:

B1: Red Hook to DUMBO via Dwntn Bklyn.

B2: Red Hook to Park Row/Manhattan via Dwntn Bklyn

B3: Downtown Brooklyn to ENY (formerly B25).

B4: Downtown Brooklyn to Myrtle-Wyckoff Av (formerly B38). (NOTE: B4 Local buses run only between Bushwick Av & Downtown Brooklyn days & evenings), B4 LTD buses run whole route.)

Q1: 11th St (Queens) to Downtown Brooklyn via Division Av.

Thoughts?

- Cool, but where do you have that "B3" ending, if you'd have that "B1" running up to DUMBO? Cadman Plaza (with the rest of the buses that end around there) or somewhere else?

- You say your "B4" is to run b/w Downtown & Myrtle-Wyckoff, yet you have it drawn running the current Seneca branch of the B38...

- Is that "Q1" supposed to replace the B62 & the B24? This needs context.

- Your "B2".... Those aren't the riders that I see utilizing direct service to Manhattan via Chinatown (I'm personally more in favor of that proposed B71+ to transport those folks to/from Manhattan)..... Anyway, while I do miss the old B51, I think the justification for reverting it (in any facet) is spent, unfortunately.

-------

Furthermore, it's as if you want a project to do with these maps here...Here's one - instead of asking people for their ideas (so you can draw them), how about drawing, in totality, what you think all the Brooklyn based (and interborough routes that run in Brooklyn) bus routes should do....

Bonus points if you do the other 4 boroughs too.

Edited September 4, 2021 by B35 via Church