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Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread


Cait Sith
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I have nothing against long routes to minimize transferring. However, that doesn’t mean all the buses need to travel the entire route especially when there is traffic. 

When I was a kid the B46 had five different short services during peak hours. WB to Ave N. WB to Church Ave. DeKalb to Kings Highway. Fulton St to Ave N and Eastern Parkway to Kings Highway. That way there was never a major delay outside of where traffic was backed up. You never waited more than ten minutes for a bus and the wait was usually under five minutes.

How long is the wait now with SBS? 

And if you need to make a long trip, most trips could be made with two buses. If most of the routes were short, much more transferring would be required. If a route needs to be split, there needs to be some overlap.

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2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Those conversations have yielded to nothing and plus the MTA is flooding SBS routes and not limited. Limiteds from this point on are history. The last route to receive a limited designation was the B49 and that's just for AM rush hours only. I don't think there's a PM variant for the 49. (please someone correct me if this is wrong)

 

Some of the B20's ridership also comes from Pink houses and Linden Plaza and some of those riders get a one seat ride to the Junction.  Are you saying that the B15 should be the only bus to serve Linden Blvd?  Unless if you make the B84 a full Spring Creek- East New York line to cover Linden Blvd, Wortman Avenue than I can't see this happening.

Linden plaza & Pink House use B13 for(A)(C) or (J) at Euclid or Crescent. I never more then a handful of people ride B20 Form the Postal Facility to The Junction. The B15 will also take you to all 3 lines add the (L) at new lots and the (3) twice. We need more direct service on the the Main corridor which is Pennsylvania Av.

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3 minutes ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

Linden plaza & Pink House use B13 for(A)(C) or (J) at Euclid or Crescent. I never more then a handful of people ride B20 Form the Postal Facility to The Junction. The B15 will also take you to all 3 lines add the (L) at new lots and the (3) twice. We need more direct service on the the Main corridor which is Pennsylvania Av.

If the TA was smart many years ago the 83 could of been a limited route simply used for that purpose (going straight down penn to starrett city), and that's without touching the B20. while the 83 local services Van Siclen.  Question for you then: Where would the B20 terminate if the 83 goes straight route to Penn? 

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22 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

If the TA was smart many years ago the 83 could of been a limited route simply used for that purpose (going straight down penn to starrett city), and that's without touching the B20. while the 83 local services Van Siclen.  Question for you then: Where would the B20 terminate if the 83 goes straight route to Penn? 

When the B83 began operation it did go straight down Penn.

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

- Cool, but where do you have that "B3" ending, if you'd have that "B1" running up to DUMBO? Cadman Plaza (with the rest of the buses that end around there) or somewhere else?

- You say your "B4" is to run b/w Downtown & Myrtle-Wyckoff, yet you have it drawn running the current Seneca branch of the B38...

- Is that "Q1" supposed to replace the B62 & the B24? This needs context.

- Your "B2".... Those aren't the riders that I see utilizing direct service to Manhattan via Chinatown (I'm personally more in favor of that proposed B71+ to transport those folks to/from Manhattan)..... Anyway, while I do miss the old B51, I think the justification for reverting it (in any facet) is spent, unfortunately.

-------

Furthermore, it's as if you want a project to do with these maps here...Here's one - instead of asking people for their ideas (so you can draw them), how about drawing, in totality, what you think all the Brooklyn based (and interborough routes that run in Brooklyn) bus routes should do....

Bonus points if you do the other 4 boroughs too.

Excellent points.

1. The B3 ends at Cadman Plaza.

2. Thats my mistake, it is running via the Seneca Branch.

3. Yes, the Q1 is replacing portions of the B24 & B62 to create a crosstown route. I havent drawn it yet, but the B32 runs as a circulator route with the un-modified versions of the B62.

4. What is this B71+? 

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2 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

When the B83 began operation it did go straight down Penn.

Then the bigger question is why did it go off course and cut down to Van Siclen?  What was the premise for this.

Now that the B84 is in the area. Should the 84 cover Van Siclen and the surrounding areas of East New York

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30 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

When the B83 began operation it did go straight down Penn.

Liberty and Pennsylvania was the northern terminal back then. Even back then we residents wanted 24/7 service down towards Flatlands. The southbound B20 made a left turn on Linden Blvd headed eastbound but it also lacked 24/7 service. Missing the last southbound bus on either route left you high and dry back then. When the B83 got extended to Broadway Junction we were still at the mercy of time constraints but the workaround was to take the (L) down to Rockaway Parkway and take the once an hour B6 to the East. The dollar cabs made a killing at Broadway Junction overnight. Just my memories. Carry on.

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17 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I have nothing against long routes to minimize transferring. However, that doesn’t mean all the buses need to travel the entire route especially when there is traffic.....

The way I see it, the implementation of short turns doesn't necessarily justify the existence of some long route...

9 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

If the TA was smart many years ago the 83 could of been a limited route simply used for that purpose (going straight down penn to starrett city), and that's without touching the B20. while the 83 local services Van Siclen.  Question for you then: Where would the B20 terminate if the 83 goes straight route to Penn? 

Why would the B83 need to have been a LTD for it to run straight down Penn?

Just now, Lawrence St said:

Excellent points.

1. The B3 ends at Cadman Plaza.

2. Thats my mistake, it is running via the Seneca Branch.

3. Yes, the Q1 is replacing portions of the B24 & B62 to create a crosstown route. I havent drawn it yet, but the B32 runs as a circulator route with the un-modified versions of the B62.

4. What is this B71+? 

- Figured that, but I just wanted to make sure... I personally don't have a problem with connecting DUMBO with Red Hook, nor do I have a problem with truncating the B25 away from it...

- Although declining, the B62 north of Broadway still carries more than the East Williamsburg spur of the B24 (as in, b/w WBP & QB)... You just might draw in a sizable set of riders from points east (of QB/48th) willing to take your "Q1" deeper into Brooklyn... I say that to say, while there wouldn't be too much difference usage-wise b/w [the current B62] & [your "Q1"] IMO, (even though at times, the B32 doesn't layover on the Queens end) I still wouldn't turn the B32 into a circulator into doing the current B32 route & doing the B62 b/w WBP & Queens.... At that point, the B32 may as well be eliminated to retain that stretch of the B62 in question... The Williamsburg portion of the B62 is way more utilized/useful than the Williamsburg portion of the B32... The people that use the B32 & the B62 interchangeably (which in part, is part of the declination of the B62) largely use it to cross the bridge, and tend to not ride past Greenpoint (from Queens)....

With that said, what would you do w/ the Greenpoint (av) portion of the B24?

- I linked it in an earlier post 3 or 4 pages ago.... This was the proposed B71+

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Liberty and Pennsylvania was the northern terminal back then. Even back then we residents wanted 24/7 service down towards Flatlands. The southbound B20 made a left turn on Linden Blvd headed eastbound but it also lacked 24/7 service. Missing the last southbound bus on either route left you high and dry back then. When the B83 got extended to Broadway Junction we were still at the mercy of time constraints but the workaround was to take the (L) down to Rockaway Parkway and take the once an hour B6 to the East. The dollar cabs made a killing at Broadway Junction overnight. Just my memories. Carry on.

Now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump into those cabs at Broadway Junction... It's similar to the cabs that park on the corner of Nostrand/Church (along Nostrand, SE corner)... Nobody gets into them shits :lol:

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

The way I see it, the implementation of short turns doesn't necessarily justify the existence of some long route...

Why would the B83 need to have been a LTD for it to run straight down Penn?

- Figured that, but I just wanted to make sure... I personally don't have a problem with connecting DUMBO with Red Hook, nor do I have a problem with truncating the B25 away from it...

- Although declining, the B62 north of Broadway still carries more than the East Williamsburg spur of the B24 (as in, b/w WBP & QB)... You just might draw in a sizable set of riders from points east (of QB/48th) willing to take your "Q1" deeper into Brooklyn... I say that to say, while there wouldn't be too much difference usage-wise b/w [the current B62] & [your "Q1"] IMO, (even though at times, the B32 doesn't layover on the Queens end) I still wouldn't turn the B32 into a circulator into doing the current B32 route & doing the B62 b/w WBP & Queens.... At that point, the B32 may as well be eliminated to retain that stretch of the B62 in question... The Williamsburg portion of the B62 is way more utilized/useful than the Williamsburg portion of the B32... The people that use the B32 & the B62 interchangeably (which in part, is part of the declination of the B62) largely use it to cross the bridge, and tend to not ride past Greenpoint (from Queens)....

With that said, what would you do w/ the Greenpoint (av) portion of the B24?

- I linked it in an earlier post 3 or 4 pages ago.... This was the proposed B71+

Now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever seen anyone jump into those cabs at Broadway Junction... It's similar to the cabs that park on the corner of Nostrand/Church (along Nostrand, SE corner)... Nobody gets into them shits :lol:

The Greenpoint Av portion would be discontinued.

Now, I could instead have the Q1 split terminals between the two former B24 terminals, but then that's just being redundant.

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10 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Those conversations have yielded to nothing and plus the MTA is flooding SBS routes and not limited. Limiteds from this point on are history.

 

Once OMNY is fully rolled out, all SBS routes will effectively be "downgraded" to Limiteds.

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11 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

And if you need to make a long trip, most trips could be made with two buses. If most of the routes were short, much more transferring would be required. If a route needs to be split, there needs to be some overlap.

In some cases yes, in some cases no (**cough** S74)

11 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

If the TA was smart many years ago the 83 could of been a limited route simply used for that purpose (going straight down penn to starrett city), and that's without touching the B20. while the 83 local services Van Siclen.  Question for you then: Where would the B20 terminate if the 83 goes straight route to Penn? 

 

10 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Then the bigger question is why did it go off course and cut down to Van Siclen?  What was the premise for this.

Now that the B84 is in the area. Should the 84 cover Van Siclen and the surrounding areas of East New York

Here's what I would propose:

B13: On the southern end, buses travel via Fountain Avenue - Vandalia Avenue - Flatlands Avenue - Van Siclen Avenue - Pennsylvania Avenue to terminate at Seaview & Pennsylvania. Buses also take Crescent Street straight from Stanley Avenue to Sutter Avenue (no diverting around the Pink Houses, which would be covered by the B20, which still connects them to all of the lines available at Broadway Junction). Southbound buses would take Euclid-Loring-Crescent.

On the northern end, I'm tempted to branch it, with one branch terminating at the Fresh Pond Road (M) station (or 67th Avenue if the turnaround is an issue) and the other branch running straight across Cypress Avenue (similar to the old B18) and terminating at Wyckoff Hospital. 

B14: Extended across Sutter Avenue to the Rockaway Blvd (A) station (the Q7 would be rerouted across Rockaway Blvd & Atlantic Avenue to terminate at the Crescent Street (J) station with the B20...in addition to its changes on the Queens end when it becomes the QT62)

B20: Completely restructured to operate from Crescent Street (J) station (turnaround via Crescent - Fulton - Hemlock - Atlantic) to East 80th Street & Seaview Avenue (B17 Paerdegat branch terminal). Bus would Crescent Street - Liberty Avenue - Euclid Avenue - Sutter Avenue - Eldert Lane  -Stanley Avenue - East 108th Street - Glenwood Road, serve the (L) station, and then take over the B17 Paerdegat branch.

B83: Broadway Junction - Starrett City (Seaview & Pennsylvania) via Pennsylvania Avenue. Alternate trips extended to Ridgewood to replace the Summerfield/Decatur portion of the B20.

B84: Broadway Junction - Gateway Mall (Erskine & Seaview) via Pennsylvania Avenue - New Lots Avenue - Van Siclen Avenue - Flatlands Avenue - Vandalia Avenue - Erskine Street, and then turn around via Gateway Drive back to Vandalia Avenue (Presumably that new development at the old DDSO site will have access to Erskine Street, so the riders can catch the bus there)

And now here's another proposal that's a bit radical, but I'll put it out there:

B6 routed to Gateway Mall Bus Terminal (Cozine Avenue - Elton Street straight into Gateway Mall, and terminating at the present-day bus terminal). Ashford Street service replaced by a rerouted Q8 (So that QT5 they have proposed between Jamaica & Brookdale Hospital would instead go from Jamaica to Gateway Mall). 

Edited by checkmatechamp13
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Progress #3:

ROUTES:

B1: Red Hook to DUMBO via Dwntn Bklyn.

B2: Red Hook to Park Row/Manhattan via Dwntn Bklyn

B3: Downtown Brooklyn to ENY (formerly B25).

B4: Downtown Brooklyn to Myrtle-Wyckoff Av (formerly B38). (NOTE: B4 Local buses run only between Bushwick Av & Downtown Brooklyn days & evenings), B4 LTD buses run whole route.)

B5: St. Marks Av to Cortlandt St via Prospect Park.

B6: Long Island City to Long Island City - East Williamsburg Circulator.

B7: Cadman Plaza to 121st St (J)  via Myrtle Av. 

B90: Williamsburg Bridge Shuttle

Q1: 11th St (Queens) to Downtown Brooklyn via Division Av.

-----

B6 Explained:

While the B6 is now a circulator route, internally, each bus would operate in one direction (for example, trip one continually runs via Wythe Av & Bedford Av, while trip two continually runs via Kent Av & Draggs Av).

This combines two similar portions of the B32 & B62 to create a new neighborhood connector, serving two subway stations and ferry terminals. No matter what bus you get on, its the same time to get to either subway station.

 

nW4cGTu.png

o28JiBs.png

 

Edited by Lawrence St
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12 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The Greenpoint Av portion would be discontinued.

Now, I could instead have the Q1 split terminals between the two former B24 terminals, but then that's just being redundant.

You're creating redundancy by even having that "Q1" swinging out to 11th st. from 48th st/QB.... Regardless, Greenpoint av. shouldn't be left with nothing.

5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

And now here's another proposal that's a bit radical, but I'll put it out there:

B6 routed to Gateway Mall Bus Terminal (Cozine Avenue - Elton Street straight into Gateway Mall, and terminating at the present-day bus terminal). Ashford Street service replaced by a rerouted Q8 (So that QT5 they have proposed between Jamaica & Brookdale Hospital would instead go from Jamaica to Gateway Mall). 

So you'd have the Q8 running to Gateway via Ashford, so that that QT5 can take on the current Q8 routing to Gateway? That seems counterproductive to me.... I'd say either [do away with that QT5 & keep the Q8 as is] or [create a Q8 local/LTD setup that would run the current Q8 routing (of which said LTD would make more than the 2 measly stops along 101st than they have that QT5 doing)].... South of the Cypress Hills houses (Linden Blvd), the Q8 is more or less a straight shot to Gateway.... Having the Q8 run via Ashford, that wouldn't be the case.... The Q8 already crawls along 101st as it is, to have it making more (actual) stops on avg. here in Brooklyn...

10 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Here's what I would propose:

B13: On the southern end, buses travel via Fountain Avenue - Vandalia Avenue - Flatlands Avenue - Van Siclen Avenue - Pennsylvania Avenue to terminate at Seaview & Pennsylvania. Buses also take Crescent Street straight from Stanley Avenue to Sutter Avenue (no diverting around the Pink Houses, which would be covered by the B20, which still connects them to all of the lines available at Broadway Junction). Southbound buses would take Euclid-Loring-Crescent.

On the northern end, I'm tempted to branch it, with one branch terminating at the Fresh Pond Road (M) station (or 67th Avenue if the turnaround is an issue) and the other branch running straight across Cypress Avenue (similar to the old B18) and terminating at Wyckoff Hospital. 

B14: Extended across Sutter Avenue to the Rockaway Blvd (A) station (the Q7 would be rerouted across Rockaway Blvd & Atlantic Avenue to terminate at the Crescent Street (J) station with the B20...in addition to its changes on the Queens end when it becomes the QT62)

B20: Completely restructured to operate from Crescent Street (J) station (turnaround via Crescent - Fulton - Hemlock - Atlantic) to East 80th Street & Seaview Avenue (B17 Paerdegat branch terminal). Bus would Crescent Street - Liberty Avenue - Euclid Avenue - Sutter Avenue - Eldert Lane  -Stanley Avenue - East 108th Street - Glenwood Road, serve the (L) station, and then take over the B17 Paerdegat branch.

B83: Broadway Junction - Starrett City (Seaview & Pennsylvania) via Pennsylvania Avenue. Alternate trips extended to Ridgewood to replace the Summerfield/Decatur portion of the B20.

B84: Broadway Junction - Gateway Mall (Erskine & Seaview) via Pennsylvania Avenue - New Lots Avenue - Van Siclen Avenue - Flatlands Avenue - Vandalia Avenue - Erskine Street, and then turn around via Gateway Drive back to Vandalia Avenue (Presumably that new development at the old DDSO site will have access to Erskine Street, so the riders can catch the bus there)

So the B83 runs straight down Penn, goes back to terminating at Seaview/Penn, and operates more or less the way the B20 does north of B'way Junction.... The B84 takes over the B83 b/w B'way Junction & Flatlands av. to go on directly serving Gateway, instead of serving Gateway via Starrett....

That said, I can't agree with what you're doing with the B13 as far as extending it to Starrett, to give Starrett patrons service to Gateway.... It's not worth doing that to that route, just to not have buses taking the Belt to get to Gateway - even considering how much you'd resort to straighten the route in general.... Nor the decision to (for whatever reason) have / or are tempted to have B13's branched in Ridgewood... That poses problems for several reasons; Cypress av. nowadays is almost always clogged during a good chunk of the day; to me it resembles the more southern/eastern half of Bushwick av., up from Jamaica av. & the JRP approach... Forget about terminating buses anywhere around Fresh Pond (M) in-particular; those buses are going to have to swing over to Forest/Putnam at minimum.... The B13 within Ridgewood, even with all that turning, is actually well used b/w Dekalb & FP/Myrtle... Oh, and nevermind the age-old "there's (already) too many buses on our streets" mindset, which is something you will hear/read from time to time from Ridgewood-ians....

With your B20, considering everything else you have going on with the rest of the plan, I would stop something like this dead at the Breukelen Houses (via E. 108th > Flatlands > Williams, to terminate with the B103 / across the street from the B60)... I wouldn't have it serving too much of Canarsie, as I don't think they'd have much use for the route in general.... Canarsie-ans are generally seeking points west (and north, obv.) more than they are points east.... Either that, or have it terminate with the B17 (Seaview branch) - your routing from Crescent (J) to Glenwood/E. 108th, then E. 108th > Flatlands > E. 105th > Seaview > to terminate with the B17...

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

 

B5: St. Marks Av to Cortlandt St via Prospect Park.

nW4cGTu.png

FYI, Prospect Park West isn't a 2-way street, it's one way southbound....

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3 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

You're creating redundancy by even having that "Q1" swinging out to 11th st. from 48th st/QB.... Regardless, Greenpoint av. shouldn't be left with nothing.

FYI, Prospect Park West isn't a 2-way street, it's one way southbound....

I'll have something replace that portion eventually.

Yes, I realized that after I made the map. The B5 runs via 7 AV NB and Prospect Pk W SB.

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16 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I'll have something replace that portion eventually.

Yes, I realized that after I made the map. The B5 runs via 7 AV NB and Prospect Pk W SB.

Either run it strictly on 7th Avenue or have buses to Crown Heights use 8th Avenue. There's no reason to have such a large gap between directions.

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9 minutes ago, Lex said:

Either run it strictly on 7th Avenue or have buses to Crown Heights use 8th Avenue. There's no reason to have such a large gap between directions.

My reasoning for running it via Prospect Park W was to have a connection to the B68, but I guess that works better.

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7 minutes ago, Lex said:

Either run it strictly on 7th Avenue or have buses to Crown Heights use 8th Avenue. There's no reason to have such a large gap between directions.

IAWTP, but my issue is more that the NB B69 does that ring-around-the-rosey crap around Grand army Plaza to get to Vanderbilt.... With his plan, there would be two routes doing that... Yikes.... On top of it, his "B5" plan would call for buses using Plaza st. can't see that flying at all....

Anyway, that last comment raises an interesting question... I've never thought about it, but what is the largest gap between uni-directional portions of the same route?

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1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

IAWTP, but my issue is more that the NB B69 does that ring-around-the-rosey crap around Grand army Plaza to get to Vanderbilt.... With his plan, there would be two routes doing that... Yikes.... On top of it, his "B5" plan would call for buses using Plaza st. can't see that flying at all....

Anyway, that last comment raises an interesting question... I've never thought about it, but what is the largest gap between uni-directional portions of the same route?

I haven't gotten to the B69 yet but I'm not having it run that way.

To the last point, I agree. I'm going to move it to 7th Av to bypass the circle.

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25 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I haven't gotten to the B69 yet but I'm not having it run that way.

To the last point, I agree. I'm going to move it to 7th Av to bypass the circle.

Yeah, I wish there were a feasible way for the thing to bypass it.... However (and IDK what way you plan on having it running), if the general idea is to have it cross Flatbush to get to/from Vanderbilt, I would advise against that.... Those streets in Prospect Heights got all those god damn speed humps.... Good way to piss off passengers & expedite the MDBF of any physical bus that would run along such a course....

This is completely putting aside any complaints those residents would muster up, about having buses utilize those side streets.... I remember back in the 2010's when those folks made a push to have the DOT do something about the blatant speeding that used to take place on those side streets... Motorists that would get fed up with Flatbush av traffic that would make their way to Carlton or Vanderbilt to get to Atlantic, etc...

Edited by B35 via Church
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38 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Anyway, that last comment raises an interesting question... I've never thought about it, but what is the largest gap between uni-directional portions of the same route?

For local buses, that distinction is probably given to the M55 down in the village, but there might be something else that I'm forgetting at the moment. The QM2/3/20 have a much larger gap on the express side (and before that, the X31 used to have the largest one out of all of them). 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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3 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, I wish there were a feasible way for the thing to bypass it.... However (and IDK what way you plan on having it running), if the general idea is to have it cross Flatbush to get to/from Vanderbilt, I would advise against that.... Those streets in Prospect Heights got all those god damn speed humps.... Good way to piss off passengers & expedite the MDBF of any physical bus that would run along such a course.... This is completely putting aside any complaints those residents about having buses utilize those side streets.... I remember back in the 2010's when those folks made a push to have the DOT do something about the blatant speeding that used to take place on those side streets... Motorists that would get fed up with Flatbush av traffic that would make their way to Carlton or Vanderbilt to get to Atlantic, etc...

Well, I do have to replace the eastern portion of the B45 as the B5 no longer services that section, but the B69 would now operate via Downtown Brooklyn, with the B65 running via the B69 to Cadman Plaza.

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6 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

For local buses, that distinction is probably given to the M55 down in the village, but there might be something else that I'm forgetting at the moment. The QM2/3/20 have a much larger gap on the express side (and before that, the X31 used to have the largest one out of all of them). 

Forgot about that whole, inbound trips via Brooklyn & outbound trips via NJ bit on the old x31.... Good call.

6 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Well, I do have to replace the eastern portion of the B45 as the B5 no longer services that section, but the B69 would now operate via Downtown Brooklyn, with the B65 running via the B69 to Cadman Plaza.

Regarding the B65, to its credit, it actually sees decent usage (EB from the first stop in Downtown anyway... WB, the thing usually tanks out at Flatbush), but I have always had a certain disdain of its routing west of Atlantic av.... In Downtown, I would have the B45 terminate where the B65 does (with the B61) & have the B65 terminate where the B37 makes its first SB pickup stop at... Even back when the B37 used to terminate with the B45 where the current B45 terminates at (Livingston/Court), I never thought anything should've been actually terminating there...

What rationale are you using for diverting the B65 in such a manner? Access to the Navy Yard or something?

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58 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Forgot about that whole, inbound trips via Brooklyn & outbound trips via NJ bit on the old x31.... Good call.

Regarding the B65, to its credit, it actually sees decent usage (EB from the first stop in Downtown anyway... WB, the thing usually tanks out at Flatbush), but I have always had a certain disdain of its routing west of Atlantic av.... In Downtown, I would have the B45 terminate where the B65 does (with the B61) & have the B65 terminate where the B37 makes its first SB pickup stop at... Even back when the B37 used to terminate with the B45 where the current B45 terminates at (Livingston/Court), I never thought anything should've been actually terminating there...

What rationale are you using for diverting the B65 in such a manner? Access to the Navy Yard or something?

Connectivity really. Similar to what I did with the B6.

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27 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

So you'd have the Q8 running to Gateway via Ashford, so that that QT5 can take on the current Q8 routing to Gateway? That seems counterproductive to me.... I'd say either [do away with that QT5 & keep the Q8 as is] or [create a Q8 local/LTD setup that would run the current Q8 routing (of which said LTD would make more than the 2 measly stops along 101st than they have that QT5 doing)].... South of the Cypress Hills houses (Linden Blvd), the Q8 is more or less a straight shot to Gateway.... Having the Q8 run via Ashford, that wouldn't be the case.... The Q8 already crawls along 101st as it is, to have it making more (actual) stops on avg. here in Brooklyn...

To clarify, I would only have one single route along 101st Avenue. I'm just mentioning both numbers (Q8 & QT5) since the Queens redesign is going on concurrently. 

But yeah, the thing is I needed something to cover Ashford Street, and I didn't want to leave it with a Gateway Mall - Livonia Avenue shuttle (AKA the present-day B84). So the routing they had the QT5 taking between the Euclid Avenue and New Lots Avenue subway stations got me thinking, and I do think there is some value in connecting that portion of City Line with the (3), as well as connecting Ashford Street with the (A)(C)

On the eastern end of the B6, what would you say is the breakdown of passengers seeking the (3) vs. the (L) vs. heading deeper into SW Brooklyn?

27 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

So the B83 runs straight down Penn, goes back to terminating at Seaview/Penn, and operates more or less the way the B20 does north of B'way Junction.... The B84 takes over the B83 b/w B'way Junction & Flatlands av. to go on directly serving Gateway, instead of serving Gateway via Starrett....

That said, I can't agree with what you're doing with the B13 as far as extending it to Starrett, to give Starrett patrons service to Gateway.... It's not worth doing that to that route, just to not have buses taking the Belt to get to Gateway - even considering how much you'd resort to straighten the route in general.... Nor the decision to (for whatever reason) have / or are tempted to have B13's branched in Ridgewood... That poses problems for several reasons; Cypress av. nowadays is almost always clogged during a good chunk of the day; to me it resembles the more southern/eastern half of Bushwick av., up from Jamaica av. & the JRP approach... Forget about terminating buses anywhere around Fresh Pond (M) in-particular; those buses are going to have to swing over to Forest/Putnam at minimum.... The B13 within Ridgewood, even with all that turning, is actually well used b/w Dekalb & FP/Myrtle... Oh, and nevermind the age-old "there's (already) too many buses on our streets" mindset, which is something you will hear/read from time to time from Ridgewood-ians....

There's a bit more than just avoiding the Belt...The thing that really stands out to me about the current setup is the backtracking the B83 does, and the fact that it doesn't serve the "core" of the mall. You get dropped off by Home Depot (Gateway I), and then you go around to the far end of Gateway II. But if you want to go to the ShopRite or the stores on that side of the mall, you have to walk it out from one of those two aforementioned stops. My goal was trying to provide better coverage of the entire mall, as well as avoiding all of the backtracking (and also connect more of that residential area along Vandalia Avenue to Broadway Junction).

27 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

With your B20, considering everything else you have going on with the rest of the plan, I would stop something like this dead at the Breukelen Houses (via E. 108th > Flatlands > Williams, to terminate with the B103 / across the street from the B60)... I wouldn't have it serving too much of Canarsie, as I don't think they'd have much use for the route in general.... Canarsie-ans are generally seeking points west (and north, obv.) more than they are points east.... Either that, or have it terminate with the B17 (Seaview branch) - your routing from Crescent (J) to Glenwood/E. 108th, then E. 108th > Flatlands > E. 105th > Seaview > to terminate with the B17...

The only issue with that is the loss of the connection to the (L) (especially since I'd also be taking the B6 away from the Boulevard Houses). From the Pink Houses, I get that the B15 connects to the (L) (but it's also a bit of a walk from the Stanley Avenue side).

What would your thoughts be on running the B20 to the Canarsie (L) station and having the B60 cover the Paerdegat branch of the B17? (And what are your thoughts on the B17 Paerdegat branch in general, including its diversion to the (L) ?) 

42 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Forgot about that whole, inbound trips via Brooklyn & outbound trips via NJ bit on the old x31.... Good call.

If you're only including the portions where stops are actually made, the old X17J, X22/22A, and X31 (34th Street inbound to 42nd Street outbound) were equal to the Greenwich Village portion of the M55 (and the express routes that pass through there).

In any case, there's also the Q21/41 down in Howard Beach (84th Street to Cross Bay Blvd is 0.4 miles, the same as the aforementioned examples).

Depending on how you count the Bx6/46 (those stops on the southern end of Food Center Drive in relation to the terminal at the northern end), that might be the longest distance between stops in opposite directions.

Also a shout-out to the QM routes (It's over a half-mile between the first outbound drop-off at 34th & 3rd to the first pickup along 6th Avenue).

But of course, if you're including nonstop portions, then like @BM5 via Woodhaven mentioned the QM2/3/20 win hands-down. 

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5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

To clarify, I would only have one single route along 101st Avenue. I'm just mentioning both numbers (Q8 & QT5) since the Queens redesign is going on concurrently. 

But yeah, the thing is I needed something to cover Ashford Street, and I didn't want to leave it with a Gateway Mall - Livonia Avenue shuttle (AKA the present-day B84). So the routing they had the QT5 taking between the Euclid Avenue and New Lots Avenue subway stations got me thinking, and I do think there is some value in connecting that portion of City Line with the (3), as well as connecting Ashford Street with the (A)(C)

On the eastern end of the B6, what would you say is the breakdown of passengers seeking the (3) vs. the (L) vs. heading deeper into SW Brooklyn?

I know (about needing to cover Ashford) - which is why I'd leave the B6 at the (3) (since you have B84's repurposed)..... There probably is some demand from City Line for the IRT, but considering everything else the Q8 has to deal with, I still wouldn't prolong that route by having it swing out to Ashford, then on down to Gateway....

I can guesstimate by "deeper into SW Brooklyn", you probably mean west of Flatbush (if not, correct me then), but I need more specificity on "the eastern end of the B6", because it actually makes a difference in terms of a breakdown (say everything east of Ralph vs. everything east of Rockaway Pkwy)....

5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

There's a bit more than just avoiding the Belt...The thing that really stands out to me about the current setup is the backtracking the B83 does, and the fact that it doesn't serve the "core" of the mall. You get dropped off by Home Depot (Gateway I), and then you go around to the far end of Gateway II. But if you want to go to the ShopRite or the stores on that side of the mall, you have to walk it out from one of those two aforementioned stops. My goal was trying to provide better coverage of the entire mall, as well as avoiding all of the backtracking (and also connect more of that residential area along Vandalia Avenue to Broadway Junction).

What's the root cause of that backtracking?

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to when you say the core of the mall (b/c I look at the mall as "Gateway I" & "Gateway II"), but the first mall stop (on the B83) after getting off the Belt isn't too too far from the more eastern part of Gateway II IMO, and the bus terminal sets you up for Gateway II in general.... There's going to be some level of walking regardless, considering the layout of the whole mall (Gateway I & II) in general (which I'm not necessarily defending, but it is what it is).... Consider the fact that you have the B13 completely bypassing Gateway I by having buses continue along Vandalia after turning off Fountain.... I would only have one route run along that part of Vandalia, but that's neither here nor there....

The reason why there's currently no routes that run SB on Erskine b/w Vandalia & Gateway Dr. because far more motorists clog up that side of Erskine to enter Gateway I via the Home Depot side/entrance, than they do (bother) entering via either of the entrances along Gateway Dr.... During construction (of those Fountain Seaview apts.), they temporarily had B84's dropping off on that side of Erskine in question (proximate to the Buffalo Wild Wings, to be specific) & more often than not, it was a PITA for buses just to get down to Gateway Dr. to make the first pickup back north.... Quite frankly, I concur with the decision to not have buses stopping along that side of Erskine....

5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The only issue with that is the loss of the connection to the (L) (especially since I'd also be taking the B6 away from the Boulevard Houses). From the Pink Houses, I get that the B15 connects to the (L) (but it's also a bit of a walk from the Stanley Avenue side).

What would your thoughts be on running the B20 to the Canarsie (L) station and having the B60 cover the Paerdegat branch of the B17? (And what are your thoughts on the B17 Paerdegat branch in general, including its diversion to the (L) ?) 

Then for that specific purpose, it could continue up E. 105th the whole way, up from Seaview (since there's no space to terminate a new route at Rockaway Pkwy. station)... Those people down around Seaview/E. 108th currently don't have any direct access to the (L)...

You'd be hard pressed to end another route at/around Canarsie (L) (even if you were to run your B20 like garbage frequency-wise; which I don't think is the case).... Regardless, I'd want absolutely no part of running B60's south of Flatlands - whether it be to take over the Paerdegat branch of the B17, or the age old B60/B42 combination suggestion.... But let's say for the sake of discussion that there's space available.... The priority as I see it, would be to have the B60 end at Canarsie (L) over your B20, & your B20 I'd (still) run down to Seaview/E. 108th & access the (L) via E. 105th....

I don't take issue with connecting E. 80th & the Paerdegats to the (L)... What I will say is that I don't necessarily think the B17, down from Crown Hgts. in particular, has to do it.... If that branch of the B17 didn't connect those folks to the subway, I would just short turn some number of B103's where that branch of the B17 ends....

Edited by B35 via Church
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