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Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread


Cait Sith
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12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I know (about needing to cover Ashford) - which is why I'd leave the B6 at the  (since you have B84's repurposed)..... There probably is some demand from City Line for the IRT, but considering everything else the Q8 has to deal with, I still wouldn't prolong that route by having it swing out to Ashford, then on down to Gateway....

I can guesstimate by "deeper into SW Brooklyn", you probably mean west of Flatbush (if not, correct me then), but I need more specificity on "the eastern end of the B6", because it actually makes a difference in terms of a breakdown (say everything east of Ralph vs. everything east of Rockaway Pkwy)

To clarify, I'm referring to the points east of Rockaway Parkway. So what percentage of B6 riders east of Rockaway Parkway are heading to the (L) vs. the (3) vs. points between Rockaway Parkway & Flatbush Avenue (including Flatbush, excluding Rockaway) vs. points west of Flatbush Avenue?

12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

What's the root cause of that backtracking?

The layout of the mall (well, in general, but specifically with respect to the location of the Erskine Street exit and the fact that it's basically two separate, adjacent malls).  

12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The reason why there's currently no routes that run SB on Erskine b/w Vandalia & Gateway Dr. because far more motorists clog up that side of Erskine to enter Gateway I via the Home Depot side/entrance, than they do (bother) entering via either of the entrances along Gateway Dr.... During construction (of those Fountain Seaview apts.), they temporarily had B84's dropping off on that side of Erskine in question (proximate to the Buffalo Wild Wings, to be specific) & more often than not, it was a PITA for buses just to get down to Gateway Dr. to make the first pickup back north.... Quite frankly, I concur with the decision to not have buses stopping along that side of Erskine....

Alright, makes sense.

How about having the B13 run across Vandalia, and having my proposed B84 take Gateway Drive - Erskine Street, terminate at Vandalia, and then turn around via Vandalia - Fountain - Seaview?

12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Then for that specific purpose, it could continue up E. 105th the whole way, up from Seaview (since there's no space to terminate a new route at Rockaway Pkwy. station)... Those people down around Seaview/E. 108th currently don't have any direct access to the (L)...

Makes sense.

12 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

You'd be hard pressed to end another route at/around Canarsie (L) (even if you were to run your B20 like garbage frequency-wise; which I don't think is the case).... Regardless, I'd want absolutely no part of running B60's south of Flatlands - whether it be to take over the Paerdegat branch of the B17, or the age old B60/B42 combination suggestion.... But let's say for the sake of discussion that there's space available.... The priority as I see it, would be to have the B60 end at Canarsie (L) over your B20, & your B20 I'd (still) run down to Seaview/E. 108th & access the (L) via E. 105th....

I don't take issue with connecting E. 80th & the Paerdegats to the (L)... What I will say is that I don't necessarily think the B17, down from Crown Hgts. in particular, has to do it.... If that branch of the B17 didn't connect those folks to the subway, I would just short turn some number of B103's where that branch of the B17 ends....

So in terms of a connection to the (L) specifically, you'd say the current setup is the best one all things considered? (Since a standalone shuttle would likely get low ridership, and besides the B60, there's nothing else that could realistically be routed over to the Paerdegats). 

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7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

To clarify, I'm referring to the points east of Rockaway Parkway. So what percentage of B6 riders east of Rockaway Parkway are heading to the (L) vs. the (3) vs. points between Rockaway Parkway & Flatbush Avenue (including Flatbush, excluding Rockaway) vs. points west of Flatbush Avenue?

- I'd say about 55% of WB B6 riders east of Rockaway Pkwy. get off for the (L), like 45% of them ride b/w Rockaway Pkwy & Nostrand (which is where B6 riders dump out for the (2)(5)), and the other 5% ride west of that point....

- I'd say about 75% of B6 riders east of Rockaway Pkwy. are riding west of Rockaway Parkway & 25% of them are riding east of it...

The cumulative percentage of that, roughly, is 40% gun for the (L), 25% gun for the (3), 33% gun for the (2)(5), and less than 5% ride west of Flatbush.... I would say that more of those people (east of Rockaway Pkwy.) on the B6 that don't get off for the (L), gun for the (2)(5) more than they do the (3)....

Think that opines on what you're asking about.

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

How about having the B13 run across Vandalia, and having my proposed B84 take Gateway Drive - Erskine Street, terminate at Vandalia, and then turn around via Vandalia - Fountain - Seaview?

I would favor that B84 setup a lot more (but I would terminate it on Erskine, across the street from the mall).... On top of it, it would benefit who/whatever would reside and/or work at whatever they plan on doing with the old BDDSO building....

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

So in terms of a connection to the (L) specifically, you'd say the current setup is the best one all things considered? (Since a standalone shuttle would likely get low ridership, and besides the B60, there's nothing else that could realistically be routed over to the Paerdegats). 

More or less.... I mean, to have something coming from the west descend down to loop in the Paedergats, to then head back up towards the (L) isn't realistic.... I suppose they could drum up something from the east that would serve Canarsie (L) before ending in the Paerdegats, but I don't really see it running too far past Gateway Mall itself....

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On 2/1/2020 at 10:14 AM, Brillant93 said:

Brooklyn already has a grid like bus system so I don't get what the grand scheme of things. 

Your predictions

Your proposal 

"B2 - Bay Ridge Ave/Shore Rd to Kings Plaza via 65 St and Aves P/R to Kings Plz.

• Stops at even numbered avenues only along 65 St.' "

Rather half mile than every two blocks which will slow down the bus like crazy.

"B6 and B6 LTD - Cropsey/25 Ave to Seaview/ E 108 St via Bay Pkwy, Ave J, Glenwood Rd, E 80 St and Ave L.

• Flatlands Ave and New Lots subway service provided by B82, B80, or B84."

You proposed to cut the B6 from the new lots station as well. 

"B9 - Shore Rd/101 St to Veterans Ave/ E71 St via Shore Rd, 60 St, Aves N, M, L and N.

• Replaces B41 Bergen Beach branch during non-rush hours except overnight."

I've argued this with you in the past and told you this wouldn't work for the Bergen Beach area because people don't need the B9 to get anywhere, especially to the B and Q trains. It would be a waste. 

"B12 – Discontinued."

Hmmm?

"B16 - 4 Ave/86 St to Saratoga/Broadway via Ft. Hamilton Pkwy, Caton, Clarkson and Saratoga.

• Provides through Ft. Hamilton Parkway service, also filling service gap on Clarkson Ave. • Replaces western end of B12 and northern end of B7. Rest of B7 is eliminated. New B23 provides 13/14 Ave service."

So you will discontinue the B12 and replace it with the B16? But the prediction that you have for the MTA which the B12 will still be utilized on empire blvd is worse? Your proposal will be unreliable because 1) its too courteous and 2) its doesn't really meet the needs of the people who actually use the B12 bus.  

"B36 – Eastbound service rerouted to Sheepshead Bay Station via Sheepshead Bay Rd and E 17 St."

So either way its your proposal or a prediction on the MTA behalf the B36 won't serve people to Coney Island hospital. 

"B41 and B41 LTD- Bergen Beach branch replaced with a B9 extension and a B10 shuttle to Flatbush/Nostrand during rush hours and overnight hours."

Either way the B41 Bergen Beach branch will be in question. 

"B49 - Utica Ave/Empire Blvd to Kingsborough College via Empire Blvd and Ocean Ave.

• Service north of Empire Blvd and Rogers/Bedford service provided by a rerouted B44 local and B44 SBS.

• B49 Limited is eliminated and replaced by a B44 SBS to Kingsborough Community College."

Why would you make the B49 more courteous as it is? Plus why would you even eliminate its limited service just to reroute the B44? It doesn't make sense to have the B44 run to KBCC. 

 "B83 - Extended from Broadway Junction to Putnam/Forest via existing B20 route which is discontinued."

Which isn't too far off from your MTA prediction. You want the B83 going straight on penn ave just like the MTA

"B84 – Extended north to Cleveland Avenue Station to provide new north south East NY service to fill a service gap, and better serves Gateway Center Mall."

Again this is just the same exact thing you want. 

What you had on your proposal isn't very off from what you predicted. Its literally almost the exact same thing. 

You can't sit here and act like the MTA is doing a disservice when you would be committing the exact same disservice if you were put in the same position. 

Everyone in the borough can't be satisfied with everything. If everyone's argument which I am gathering are the headway and wait times let it be that. 

 

 

Yes I do agree with you on this. He said about the B4, B15 (to JFK Airport) being discontinued as well. 
the Queens proposal was wiped off because of COVID. If you’re gonna match B-Q proposals, make sure that that it stays wholly within the borough before you get politicians and communities coming after you for this. If they didn’t learn their lesson from the first redesign, you cannot change what’s on the board before you can make any proposals. Add routes such to those that need transit desperately instead of discontinuing routes with more frequent service just because you use that route more often. Making the B41 a Select Bus Service route will require more articulated buses in Flatbush and the only way to do that is to transfer the B2 & B31 to Ulmer Park. 

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13 minutes ago, FLX9304 said:

Yes I do agree with you on this. He said about the B4, B15 (to JFK Airport) being discontinued as well. 
the Queens proposal was wiped off because of COVID. If you’re gonna match B-Q proposals, make sure that that it stays wholly within the borough before you get politicians and communities coming after you for this. If they didn’t learn their lesson from the first redesign, you cannot change what’s on the board before you can make any proposals. Add routes such to those that need transit desperately instead of discontinuing routes with more frequent service just because you use that route more often. Making the B41 a Select Bus Service route will require more articulated buses in Flatbush and the only way to do that is to transfer the B2 & B31 to Ulmer Park. 

The B2 runs essentially in front of Flatbush and the B31 deadhead from the depot to Gerristen Ave is about 10-15 mins. I don't think it would be wise for Ulmer Park to take in that work and plus they don't have space.

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Delaying the redesign for five years increases the chances it will never be done at all which is not good news if it were done right. It's great news if it would have been done wrong which seems to be the case.

This doesn't mean that the MTA is not continuing to destroy the bus system by making stupid decisions that will lead to lower ridership. Take DOT's program to eliminate half the bus stops in Jackson Heights on the Q66 which violates two of the MTA's own guidelines regarding bus stop spacing and maximum walks to a local bus route.

The current standard is bus stops every 750 feet and maximum walks to a local bus stop of a quarter-mile. The Q66 along Northern Blvd stops every 500 feet. Rather than rearranging stops to have it meet the standard of every 750 feet, DOT with the MTA's approval is simply removing every other bus stop increasing the distance to every 1,000 feet. 

Since Northern Blvd has no parallel bus routes, the maximum walk already exceeds the standard of a quarter-mile. Adding another 500 feet for some, will increase the maximum walk to over 2,000 feet or about 5/8 of a mile, over twice what the standard calls for. 

Bus stops 1,000 feet apart might be justified if there were parallel bus routes along 30th and 35th Avenue, but there aren't any. Also, DOT claims bus speeds will improve. Buses already average 11 mph which is pretty good when the speed limit is 25 mph and not slower than your typical local bus route. Is it worth inconveniencing riders and violating your own guidelines to increase the average speed by a mile or two per hour at the most? Remember that buses skip stops anyway when no one gets on or off. DOT and the MTA are making this decision without even examining bus stop usage or considering rider demographics. 

They will continue this practice all over the city to the detriment of bus riders although the redesign is being delayed Please share and sign this petition. 

https://www.change.org/p/mta-oppose-the-mta-s-plan-to-eliminate-bus-stops/dashboard

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20 minutes ago, LTA1992 said:

Not suspended. It'll be COMPLETED by 2026.

Yes, I get that part.. Truthfully, I don't know why it has to take 5 years..

It's simply this.. They don't have adequate staff to do the leg work properly.

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11 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Yes, I get that part.. Truthfully, I don't know why it has to take 5 years..

It's simply this.. They don't have adequate staff to do the leg work properly.

What leg work? They are doing the plans from computer programs and metricard data and other statistics. They are not riding any bus routes or soliciting rider opinions. They are merely informing riders of their plans and doing surveys using leading leading questions to justify their predetermined conclusions like the need to remove bus stops and add more bus lanes. 

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2 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

What leg work? They are doing the plans from computer programs and metricard data and other statistics. They are not riding any bus routes or soliciting rider opinions. They are merely informing riders of their plans and doing surveys using leading leading questions to justify their predetermined conclusions like the need to remove bus stops and add more bus lanes. 

That part I didn't know... Appreciate the clarification @BrooklynBus

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18 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

That part I didn't know... Appreciate the clarification @BrooklynBus

The only legwork involved is the holding of workshops. And if the MTA was serious about soliciting opinions from its bus riders, they would not have distributed three inch by three inch post it notes for rider suggestions. They would have at least distributed an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper. 

The Covid delay merited an extension until 2023, not 2025, unless the MTA is serious about getting these studies right and not merely hope riders will just forget about these studies in five years.

Remember, in the 1980s, the MTA undertook these same studies that resulted in virtually no changes at all. The Brooklyn study for example resulted in a few meager proposals which the MTA said they could not implement considering their budget constraints. That was after a $6 million expenditure for that study alone. 

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3 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

Not suspended. It'll be COMPLETED by 2026.

 

Does "completed" refer to "release of the final report" or "actual implementation"? A lot has to happen between those two steps. 

 

If the last redesign takes effect in the September 2026 pick, then it would have to be finalized in late 2025 or early 2026, discussed in a public hearing, modified as needed, incorporated into a pick, reviewed by the appropriate union(s), and then picked.

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25 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Does "completed" refer to "release of the final report" or "actual implementation"? A lot has to happen between those two steps. 

 

If the last redesign takes effect in the September 2026 pick, then it would have to be finalized in late 2025 or early 2026, discussed in a public hearing, modified as needed, incorporated into a pick, reviewed by the appropriate union(s), and then picked.

I assume they mean implementation of the final routes by December 2026.

However,  I predict they will change their minds before after all the opposition delays implementation further. They will then say Boroughwide changes (except for the Bronx and Staten Island) are not feasible and. They will divide the Queens study into three studies, NW Queens, NE Queens and SE Queens, and Brooklyn into Brooklyn North and south, and Manhattan into North and South. 2026 will then become 2030. And by about 2028, they will just give up and go back to studying two routes at a time.

This doesn’t have to happen if they show some actual willingness to listen to what the public wants, minimizing opposition instead of trying to force changes to save them money that’s no one wants. We really need thoughtful redesigns. They are over 50 years overdue!

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56 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

However,  I predict they will change their minds before after all the opposition delays implementation further. They will then say Boroughwide changes (except for the Bronx and Staten Island) are not feasible and. They will divide the Queens study into three studies, NW Queens, NE Queens and SE Queens, and Brooklyn into Brooklyn North and south, and Manhattan into North and South. 2026 will then become 2030. And by about 2028, they will just give up and go back to studying two routes at a time.

 

Has all of this been stated officially yet? 

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A lot of you need to remember that the MTA has to redo almost everything because of the pandemic, which shifted many ridership patterns. That said, I agree it needs to be delayed by a couple years but I don't think it should take anymore than 3 yrs to make changes (unless all of a sudden now they are doing local and express routes seperatly and even so that should not be taking 5 yrs for 8 redesigns to be completed compared to 4-5)

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1 hour ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

A lot of you need to remember that the MTA has to redo almost everything because of the pandemic, which shifted many ridership patterns. That said, I agree it needs to be delayed by a couple years but I don't think it should take anymore than 3 yrs to make changes (unless all of a sudden now they are doing local and express routes seperatly and even so that should not be taking 5 yrs for 8 redesigns to be completed compared to 4-5)

I agree it shouldn't take five years. But you also have to ask yourself routes should be eliminated based on Covid travel patterns which is probably what the MTA will propose if the redesigns in fact will continue. If Covid travel patterns are in fact temporary, what are the chances that discontinued routes will return if travel patterns return to normal? The redesigns should not be an excuse for service and route cuts. The purpose as Byford envisioned them was to improve service. I doubt that will ever happen with him gone. 

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10 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Delaying the redesign for five years increases the chances it will never be done at all which is not good news if it were done right. It's great news if it would have been done wrong which seems to be the case.

It hasn't been delayed for five years. The Bronx bus redesign was originally supposed to be implemented in October 2020 (after a November 2018 start date). Each borough started about 6 months apart (so Staten Island local was supposed to start in November 2020 and be completed by sometime in Fall 2022/Winter 2023).

Bronx is being implemented in June 2022 (about 1.75 years behind schedule). Queens & Brooklyn, considering the coordination involved with those two boroughs probably wouldn't have been implemented by Fall 2022 (which would've been the deadline if you give each borough two years).

It's only a five year delay when you consider it from when it was first announced when Byford was hired. But it's not like they randomly added five years just now. As they started going through the process (and realized that they couldn't have another SIM fiasco where they obtained the bare minimum of public input), they adjusted the timeline accordingly.

I do agree that they shouldn't have completely stopped work on the redesign just because of the pandemic. Westchester, Suffolk, Newark, and now Nassau (not to mention other cities like Miami) have all made substantial progress on their bus redesigns during the pandemic.

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14 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

It hasn't been delayed for five years. The Bronx bus redesign was originally supposed to be implemented in October 2020 (after a November 2018 start date). Each borough started about 6 months apart (so Staten Island local was supposed to start in November 2020 and be completed by sometime in Fall 2022/Winter 2023).

Bronx is being implemented in June 2022 (about 1.75 years behind schedule). Queens & Brooklyn, considering the coordination involved with those two boroughs probably wouldn't have been implemented by Fall 2022 (which would've been the deadline if you give each borough two years).

It's only a five year delay when you consider it from when it was first announced when Byford was hired. But it's not like they randomly added five years just now. As they started going through the process (and realized that they couldn't have another SIM fiasco where they obtained the bare minimum of public input), they adjusted the timeline accordingly.

I do agree that they shouldn't have completely stopped work on the redesign just because of the pandemic. Westchester, Suffolk, Newark, and now Nassau (not to mention other cities like Miami) have all made substantial progress on their bus redesigns during the pandemic.

Then AM NY got it wrong. They said all the studies were originally plannned for implementation by the end of 2021. According to you, that wasn't true. If you do not count the 1 1/2 year hold due to Covid, the added delay is 3 1/2 years, not five years.   That still seems excessive unless the MTA really intends to listen this time and not try to force unpopular changes. If that is the case, it's worth the wait. 

I doubt that's the case given what is happening with bus stop removal. 

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3 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Then AM NY got it wrong. They said all the studies were originally plannned for implementation by the end of 2021. According to you, that wasn't true. If you do not count the 1 1/2 year hold due to Covid, the added delay is 3 1/2 years, not five years.   That still seems excessive unless the MTA really intends to listen this time and not try to force unpopular changes. If that is the case, it's worth the wait. 

I doubt that's the case given what is happening with bus stop removal. 

We'll have to see what the timeline looks like. For all we know, they might decide to start the process from scratch (or close to it). Say you start Queens in Spring 2022 (at this point, three years behind the original start date of April 2019). Give yourself an extra 6 month cushion to properly phase in the Brooklyn/Queens changes and there's your 3.5 years. 

Not saying that they necessarily have some sort of logic (like I said before, they should've been making steps towards implementing the redesigns throughout this pandemic) but hopefully there is at least some reasoning behind it.

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29 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

We'll have to see what the timeline looks like. For all we know, they might decide to start the process from scratch (or close to it). Say you start Queens in Spring 2022 (at this point, three years behind the original start date of April 2019). Give yourself an extra 6 month cushion to properly phase in the Brooklyn/Queens changes and there's your 3.5 years. 

Not saying that they necessarily have some sort of logic (like I said before, they should've been making steps towards implementing the redesigns throughout this pandemic) but hopefully there is at least some reasoning behind it.

They are not starting the process from scratch. I just heard they will be releasing a revised Queens Redesign in two weeks. 

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16 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

They are not starting the process from scratch. I just heard they will be releasing a revised Queens Redesign in two weeks. 

Heard from who? They haven't even announced anything regarding Bronx workshops...

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Just now, checkmatechamp13 said:

Heard from who? They haven't even announced anything regarding Bronx workshops...

They already had the Bronx and Queens workshops for the proposals. Why do they have to do it again? Implementation for the Bronx was already agreed upon. For Queens they promised to revise the proposals before having additional workshops. They have made those revisions and are ready to present them. I heard it from someone who heard it from the MTA. 

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

They already had the Bronx and Queens workshops for the proposals. Why do they have to do it again? Implementation for the Bronx was already agreed upon. For Queens they promised to revise the proposals before having additional workshops. They have made those revisions and are ready to present them. I heard it from someone who heard it from the MTA. 

The Bronx, basically it looks like they're picking up right where they left off (in February 2020, they were going for an October 2020 implementation, so if they start up in the fall, they're probably just looking to put the finishing touches and call it a day). My understanding is that the changes would be only to the local routes.

For Queens, hopefully it's true that they used the time during the pandemic to revise the proposals. Maybe you're right and they'll pick up from a (revised) draft plan, and they basically factored another year of cushion into their implementation for Queens/Brooklyn. (Plus I guess at this point, they plan to look at the Bronx express routes again at some point, and maybe they'll just decide to have separate express bus redesigns for Queens & Brooklyn, especially considering how much more express bus ridership was impacted by the pandemic compared to local bus ridership). 

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